409 replies to this topic

[Apple Martini]

Awesome Oberyn Martell, on 04 April 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

It's been confirmed that Targs aren't fireproof hasn't it?

So Jon's hand getting burned is inconsequential to the possibility of R+L=j

Yes. And yes. But people, for some unholy reason, keep bringing it up anyway.

Fireproof fakery aside, it amazes me that people still take Dany — an incredibly unreliable narrator who's ignorant of her own family's history and tells herself that she's fireproof after she's clearly been burned — at her word when she says "fire cannot kill a dragon." Someone should tell her about her family members who drank wildfire, burned at Summerhall, died in the Dance of the Dragons, died of the plague and died from a damn mace to the head. Not to mention the perpetually ill (Naerys), the perpetually loopy (Rhaegal) and the perpetually douchy (Aegon IV).

Basically, if Jon burning his hand fighting the wight disqualifies him from being a Targaryen, then Dany should also be disqualified, given that her hands burned by pulling out a garden-variety spear.

Edited by Apple Martini, 04 April 2012 - 10:33 AM.

[DefKhan1]

*shrugs*
In a world with White Walkers, Wights, dragons and whatnot, it doesn't seem far-fetched to me, at least, that someone might be heat proof.

[KAralinda]

I am almostly certain that the theory is true... but how will it be revealed?!?!

[Apple Martini]

DefKhan1, on 04 April 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

*shrugs*
In a world with White Walkers, Wights, dragons and whatnot, it doesn't seem far-fetched to me, at least, that someone might be heat proof.

It doesn't seem far-fetched if you ignore the fact (demonstrated in the story with the spear burns and confirmed by the author) that it isn't true.

[Sasha Steelsong]

DefKhan1, on 04 April 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

*shrugs*
In a world with White Walkers, Wights, dragons and whatnot, it doesn't seem far-fetched to me, at least, that someone might be heat proof.

Except that no member of her family (herself included) or suspected member of her family is heat proof and GRRM said that her surviving the funeral pyre was a one time thing.  For a person to potentially exist in this world who is heatproof is theoretically possible.  For it to be the Targaryens in spite of multiple proofs to the contrary is highly unlikely.

[hiccupzz]

Not sure if this theory has been put forward already but I do think that R+L=J coz a third Dragon rider is needed and should be of Targaryen blood.  Daenerys is obviously the first, Aegon the second and Jon would make a great third if Rhaegar was his father.

[theguyfromtheVale]

Except that Young Griff is no Targaryen (although probably still a dragon), and GRRM has stated before that not all dragon riders have to be Targs.

I think it's more likely that two out of Tyrion, Victarion and Quentyn will end up as dragon riders, at least for the remaining time in Essos.

[Apple Martini]

Personally I'm still not entirely convinced that the three heads of the dragon necessarily have to be synonymous with three different riders of three different dragons. It's one dragon with three heads. This is also the Targaryen sigil, and Aegon landed with two other riders, but we don't know for sure that that has any significance to the prophecy or if Rhaegar was doing the ol' Targ thing and thought his family's history was a bigger deal than it really was. I'd wager the prophecy predates the conquest and thus predates the sigil.

[Dilshan Muthalib]

Excuse my spelling ..

As Ned approached the the fallen tower the great Sir Arthur Daine had a sad smile on his face-- may be he was suggesting Ned had made a mistake by starting/joining the war as his sister was siding with the Targs

I looked for you in the Trident Ned said to the lord commander of the kings guard- suggesting that is where they belonged, the greatest three knights should have been fighting the most important battle not guarding a girl who is suppose to have been kidnapped..and if she was on her own she had nothing to fear or did not need them three guarding her..Ned would never have harmed her and Robert was convinced Lyanna was being held against her will so if she was alone he would not have harmed her, but if Robert had seen Lyanna with a child it would have been different and she would have needed protecting.

Ned was convinced that TOJ was the last place these three great nights should have been.

There was another man in the room, Lord Eddard he calls out from the dark when Ned opens his eyes..who was that man??

[Lady Octarina]

Dilshan Muthalib, on 04 April 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

There was another man in the room, Lord Eddard he calls out from the dark when Ned opens his eyes..who was that man??

Most likely Howland Reed, the man who'll probably be responsible for explaining this whole mess for readers and characters.

[Dilshan Muthalib]

possibly or some one a master helping Lyanna, looking after her ..only two survived the battle, Ned and Reed and surely they would have entered TOJ together and got to Lyannna at the same time..did Reed have a reason to wonder into the dark..as we know Lyanna was dying, should he not have been there with ned trying to see if there is anything he could do..just wondering..I have a feeling there might have been a third person and he is still alive ..who that is anyone's guess

[Dragonfish]

Dilshan Muthalib, on 04 April 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

There was another man in the room, Lord Eddard he calls out from the dark when Ned opens his eyes..who was that man??

That's just Vayon Poole. Ned hears Lyanna say "Eddard!" in his dream, then he hears her say "Lord Eddard," then finally he hears a male voice say the same thing. This is meant to indicate that Vayon Poole's voice was seeping into his dream as he was trying to wake him up. It's an old, old device, almost cliche now.

Oh, and by the way, we know that at least two people found Ned with Lyanna. One of them was certainly Howland Reed, but the other person or people are a mystery. A lot of people think Wylla was there, though.

[Dilshan Muthalib]

this might sound completely off..but I have a feeling patchface might know something, its clear he was no ordinary fool...could he have been there in the tower

[Lady Octarina]

Dragonfish, on 04 April 2012 - 07:02 PM, said:

That's just Vayon Poole. Ned hears Lyanna say "Eddard!" in his dream, then he hears her say "Lord Eddard," then finally he hears a male voice say the same thing. This is meant to indicate that Vayon Poole's voice was seeping into his dream as he was trying to wake him up. It's an old, old device, almost cliche now.

Oh, and by the way, we know that at least two people found Ned with Lyanna. One of them was certainly Howland Reed, but the other person or people are a mystery. A lot of people think Wylla was there, though.

Nice observation! I didn't bother to look for that in the book, and as it was out of context lol

Dilshan Muthalib, on 04 April 2012 - 07:06 PM, said:

this might sound completely off..but I have a feeling patchface might know something, its clear he was no ordinary fool...could he have been there in the tower

Well, Patchface is one of those mysterious characters that probably know a lot more than they show, but I doubt any of those things has to do with R+L=J. And he was on Storm's End back then.

[corbon]

DefKhan1, on 04 April 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

*shrugs*
In a world with White Walkers, Wights, dragons and whatnot, it doesn't seem far-fetched to me, at least, that someone might be heat proof.

Perhaps you should change your name to Sansa?
This isn't a sparkly, shiny fairy tale.

[DefKhan1]

corbon, on 04 April 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

Perhaps you should change your name to Sansa?
This isn't a sparkly, shiny fairy tale.

I just read all five books in the last few months after watching the HBO series and came straight here to this thread after Googling this topic.
This isn't usually my genre, so forgive my naivete.
I was just voicing a thought and admit the popular opinion on here does make more sense than mine does.
No need to be so snarky.

[Lykos]

Yes Corbon, I think DefKhan1 has a point, your comment was very depreciative, both to DefKhan1 and Sansa .
Sansa unlike Jeyne Pool knows that deer are not hunted by knights touching them with their hand as the songs tell it.  Furthermore you used similar argumentation to dismiss a view I expressed about Lyanna´s mindset, which of course is speculative either way.

Corbon I admire your knowledge about the series and respect your no nonsense attitude very much in most of your posts, but the one you gave as answer to DefKhan1, I think not .

corbon, on 06 March 2012 - 07:42 AM, said:

Apart from the fact that this isn't a reasonable connection in a world where magic and prophesy are real and the ruling, dragon-riding clan have followed prophetic visions by a forebear for hundreds of years (therefore grounded and realistic people should accept prophecy as a realistic and important basis for actions), where do you actually get Lyanna being 'grounded' and 'realistic' from?
All we know of her really is that she accurately summed up Robert, had wild wolf blood, rode like she was 3/4 horse, fought (swordplay) with her brothers against her fathers will, was probably the KotLT (grounded? realistic?, perhaps romantic and idealistic!) and seems to have eloped with Rhaegar. Don't see anything grounded or realistic there?

I give you a quote where I expressed my view about Lyanna in a better way, I think.

Lykos, on 11 March 2012 - 02:49 AM, said:

I hate the title of this thread, because I love Lyanna (as much as one can love a character already dead at the start of the story, and not to much information to go on) and I don´t believe she was stupid.

Of course she could have been capeable of acting foolishly and I can completely follow LadyoftheNorth72´s train of thought.  (At age 19-20 I was preparing 15 yo kids for exchange years and have seen the most sensible and intelligent girls making fools of themselfs.)

But we have to consider that in this world there is no place for adolescence plus Lyanna was raised in the North a rough world.  And her upbringing will have been quite different from Ned´s daughters.  There will probably have been no Septa teaching Lyanna.  Ned build the Sept for Catelyn.  I guess that  old Nan had a more important part in Lyanna´s upbringing.  There might have been a noble woman of the North at Winterfell, for example Maege Mormont, she named her youngest daughter after Lyanna.  We know almost nothing about Lyanna´s mother except, that her mother was a Flint.  So I think she was rooted in the beliefs and myths of the North.
This could of course make a reenactment of the story of the Winterrose plausible.  But why would Lyanna  share Rhaegar´s obsession with the Ptwp prophesy.  Rhaegar changed his interpretation of this prophesy already, I think Lyanna had very firm own beliefs based in the religion of the old gods, she will have set his head straight.
Unlike Robb with Jeyne Westerling Lyanna didn´t give in to romance straight away.  Jon was conceived more than a year after the Harrenhal Tournament  and I think it is save to assume that she stayed in a place known and approved by her family till shortly before Brandon discovered  she was gone.  A ravensflight to whereever the Stark weddingparty last made camp I´d say.
Lyanna knew how to learn to fight without her father approving, she was observant and insightfull for she assessed Robert correctly.  She probably had objections to her father´s "southron ambitions", that went beyond her own marriage.

So what went wrong?  I think either Rhaegar or Lyanna must have trusted someone who was manipulated or in league with Varys or Aerys II.

I want to add, that Lyanna was a Winter child unlike Arya and Sansa.

Edited by Lykos, 05 April 2012 - 12:29 AM.

[corbon]

DefKhan1, on 05 April 2012 - 12:01 AM, said:

I just read all five books in the last few months after watching the HBO series and came straight here to this thread after Googling this topic.
This isn't usually my genre, so forgive my naivete.
I was just voicing a thought and admit the popular opinion on here does make more sense than mine does.
No need to be so snarky.

Chill. It was a joke, as indicated by the smiley, not being snarkey. I'm travelling with limited internet access and time for posting.

[Serie]

Lykos, on 05 April 2012 - 12:28 AM, said:

Yes Corbon, I think DefKhan1 has a point, your comment was very depreciative, both to DefKhan1 and Sansa .

oh, that's so cute and chivalrous but I don't think its a shame to be fond of fairy tales anyway

but I'm doing a research considering the R+L=J issue and you'll be amazed of how many people are totally unaware of this theory!
Which proves my point, R+L=J is not obvious

[Lykos]

@Serie
No, there is no shame in being fond of fairy tales.  And Sansa is very fond of fairy tales, but she doesn´t believe in them.  Shure she wants the world to be ideal and was pretty niave about certain things.  Well this is about R+L=J.

I want to bring up the possibilty, that Rhaegar saw in Lyanna the perfect Visenya and didn´t think of Lyanna´s child as the third head, but Lyanna herself.  Furthermore I have this speculation, that the Stark family secrets were passed on through the female line.
At least since the time of the She - Wolves.

I think it´s possible, that Lyanna convinced Rhaegar of the importance of these secrets and that the KG were left to protect Lyanna and not an heir.  For this of course the 3 KG must have been loyal to Rhaegar, and I think it´s entirely possible that, for them, the planned coup to replace Aerys with Rhaegar was a fait accompli.