409 replies to this topic

[Awesome Oberyn Martell]

This has probably been mentioned (a lot) of times before but I confess to not having read through all the R+L=J threads. So.

We know Arthur Dayne was Rhaegar's BFF.
We know Arthur Dayne was at the ToJ with Lyanna.

And in ADWD, Barristan muses on the fact that Rhaegar had his favourites amongst the Kingsguard and trusted some (he specifically mentions Dayne) as one who shared Rhaegar's secrets. Is that a hint about Rhaegar/Lyanna being married and having Jon? I think it could well be.

[Siziel]

Rhaegar and Lyanna being married  is a focal point in the R+L=J theory, and the presence of 3 members of the KG at the ToJ is a possible evidence for that.

obviously they were the most trusted members of the KG, so Dayne was one of them.

[Ygrain]

If our theory is true, then Barristan mentioning how KG are not supposed to protect mistresses and bastards is definitely a hint, and I totally see GRRM chuckling when writing it :-)

[Apple Martini]

I think it also helps to look at the individual members of the Kingsguard and see how they make sense on their own level. For instance, why Whent and not Darry? Why Hightower but not Jaime?

Arthur Dayne is the easiest. He's Rhaegar's best friend and the man he trusts the most.

Gerold Hightower is the Lord Commander. If Rhaegar was serious about forcing Aerys to abdicate, the Lord Commander is someone he'd need in his corner. It makes sense that they'd have a good relationship, and if an heir to the throne was going to be born in the Tower of Joy, it makes sense for a veteran Kingsguard to be there. I kind of get the impression that Aerys was already considered a lost cause (like Tyrion considered Joffrey a lost cause), so the Kingsguard put Jaime on his guard duty as a token and focused the rest of their energy on the war (Darry, Selmy and Martell) and on Lyanna's child (Hightower, Dayne and Whent). Aerys was paranoid about Elia and her children, so it's possible they were simply unable to gain access to them, and figured they were safe in the capital anyway.

Oswell Whent is the question mark of the three. Why Whent but not Darry? Jaime and Selmy, Rhaegar probably didn't know or trust enough, respectively. Martell probably wouldn't take kindly to guarding his niece's replacement. But Darry and Whent seem somewhat interchangeable at face value. Until you examine the possibility, recently discussed on the board, that Lyanna Stark remained at Harrenhal after the tournament as a guest and it was from Harrenhal that Rhaegar "stole" her. It makes sense — there was a Whent girl of Lyanna's age there, and the Whents would be sort of her future in-laws, when Brandon married Catelyn. Oswell Whent would have grown up at Harrenhal and would have known the best ways in and out of it. He could have been a lookout man or some sort of assistance to Rhaegar when the time came to "steal" Lyanna. Being in on it from the ground up, it made sense that he'd stay with Lyanna at the Tower and see it through to the end.

[Ygrain]

Apple Martini, on 10 April 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

Oswell Whent is the question mark of the three. Why Whent but not Darry? Jaime and Selmy, Rhaegar probably didn't know or trust enough, respectively. Martell probably wouldn't take kindly to guarding his niece's replacement. But Darry and Whent seem somewhat interchangeable at face value. Until you examine the possibility, recently discussed on the board, that Lyanna Stark remained at Harrenhal after the tournament as a guest and it was from Harrenhal that Rhaegar "stole" her. It makes sense — there was a Whent girl of Lyanna's age there, and the Whents would be sort of her future in-laws, when Brandon married Catelyn. Oswell Whent would have grown up at Harrenhal and would have known the best ways in and out of it. He could have been a lookout man or some sort of assistance to Rhaegar when the time came to "steal" Lyanna. Being in on it from the ground up, it made sense that he'd stay with Lyanna at the Tower and see it through to the end.

This. It really doesn't make sense that Rhaegar would travel all the way to WInterfell and then down to Dorne (and that with a supposedly unwilling company). It makes very much sense that Lord Rickard, aware of his daughter's uncouth manners, would want her "educated" a bit in the southern ways. Add to it his "southron ambitions", which would allow him to establish closer ties with Whents, who were a prominent family back then. I think her stay at Harrenhall was arranged even before the tourney - due to Whent's relationship to Rhaegar, Harrenhall might seem a somewhat less desirable place, but Rickard wouldn't want to offend the Whents.

[Corvinus]

Apple Martini, on 10 April 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

I think it also helps to look at the individual members of the Kingsguard and see how they make sense on their own level. For instance, why Whent and not Darry? Why Hightower but not Jaime?

Arthur Dayne is the easiest. He's Rhaegar's best friend and the man he trusts the most.

Gerold Hightower is the Lord Commander. If Rhaegar was serious about forcing Aerys to abdicate, the Lord Commander is someone he'd need in his corner. It makes sense that they'd have a good relationship, and if an heir to the throne was going to be born in the Tower of Joy, it makes sense for a veteran Kingsguard to be there. I kind of get the impression that Aerys was already considered a lost cause (like Tyrion considered Joffrey a lost cause), so the Kingsguard put Jaime on his guard duty as a token and focused the rest of their energy on the war (Darry, Selmy and Martell) and on Lyanna's child (Hightower, Dayne and Whent). Aerys was paranoid about Elia and her children, so it's possible they were simply unable to gain access to them, and figured they were safe in the capital anyway.

Oswell Whent is the question mark of the three. Why Whent but not Darry? Jaime and Selmy, Rhaegar probably didn't know or trust enough, respectively. Martell probably wouldn't take kindly to guarding his niece's replacement. But Darry and Whent seem somewhat interchangeable at face value. Until you examine the possibility, recently discussed on the board, that Lyanna Stark remained at Harrenhal after the tournament as a guest and it was from Harrenhal that Rhaegar "stole" her. It makes sense — there was a Whent girl of Lyanna's age there, and the Whents would be sort of her future in-laws, when Brandon married Catelyn. Oswell Whent would have grown up at Harrenhal and would have known the best ways in and out of it. He could have been a lookout man or some sort of assistance to Rhaegar when the time came to "steal" Lyanna. Being in on it from the ground up, it made sense that he'd stay with Lyanna at the Tower and see it through to the end.

I think a clue is given in ADWD as to why Whent was one of the three knights, and not Barristan or Darry or even Martell. From one of Barristan's chapter we learn that there was a rumor of Rhaegar plotting against Aerys, and that the tourney at Harrenhal was just a front for Rhaegar to gather support. Well if that's true (and this reminds me of the fake tourney at Whitewalls), then Lord Whent, and implicitly Oswell would be in on it. So in the end, it makes sense why Rhaegar chose to trust Whent alongside Dayne. My question is why Hightower? I don't know if being the LC was enough to have him trusted with guarding Lyanna. Hopefully we'll learn about the Hightowers through Sam in future books.

Edited by Corvinus, 10 April 2012 - 03:00 PM.

[Apple Martini]

Corvinus, on 10 April 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

I think a clue is given in ADWD as to why Whent was one of the three knights, and not Barristan or Darry or even Martell. From one of Barristan's chapter we learn that there was a rumor of Rhaegar plotting against Aerys, and that the tourney at Harrenhal was just a front for Rhaegar to gather support. Well if that's true (and this reminds me of the fake tourney at Whitewalls), then Lord Whent, and implicitly Oswell would be in on it. So in the end, it makes sense why Rhaegar chose to trust Whent alongside Dayne. My question is why Hightower? I don't know if being the LC was enough to have him trusted with guarding Lyanna. Hopefully we'll learn about the Hightowers through Sam in future books.

Like I said, Rhaegar would need Hightower's support if he was serious about overthrowing his father. It makes sense that they'd cultivate a good relationship.

[Lykos]

We have a hint that LC Hightower was in on the coup by Jaime pointing out Criston Cole to Loras in the White Book.  But I don´t understand how he plays into all of this either.  I think revealing this would be too much of a give away.

[Apple Martini]

Lykos, on 10 April 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

We have a hint that LC Hightower was in on the coup by Jaime pointing out Criston Cole to Loras in the White Book.  But I don´t understand how he plays into all of this either.  I think revealing this would be too much of a give away.

It could also be a clue that by then Rhaegar was the de facto king, such that the Kingsguard and its Lord Commander were following his orders and not so much Aerys'.

[Lykos]

I think both. See post #360