161 replies to this topic

[TheCheesecakeMassacre]

So I was re-reading AFFC last night and had a thought, what makes Tywin so great?

1) He's really rich- Anyone could be with the rich mines of the Westerlands.
2) Gave Westeros decades of peace as King's Hand- Only because under normal circumstances, major rebellions wouldn't happen as they would be crushed alone. It took the extraordinary events of Lyanna's kidnapping and the murder of many nobles to start a serious rebellion with many rebels and wasn't due to an incompetent Hand.
3) Destroyed the Reyne's and Tarbeck's- One house vs all of the Westerlands.
4) Sacked King's Landing- With the loyalists defeated or at Storm's End vs the full power of the West.
5) Failed to secure the Tyrell's support during the War of the 5 Kings, Renly would have won the war were it not for Stannis having magic.
6) Defeated Stannis on the Blackwater- Almost lured into a trap by the Northern alliance which would have seen the city fall. If he had not met up with a huge Tyrell force won over by Littlefinger then the city may very well have fallen.
7) Has Robb Stark and many Northern commanders killed- If Robb had not been an idiot and broken his vows then the Wedding would have gone as planned, not down to Tywin's planning.

Short of it is- All of Tywin's successes have been down to either his massive resources or luck.

[A Free Shadow]

Not really. Tywin's father was a slob and at his time Lannisters lost much of the respect and resources they commanded before. Tywin took things in his hands and came out as powerful and rich Lannister as ever.

But I agree that his image has a lot to do with his personality, not only with his doings. It was described in the books how he can devastate a man only by looking at him. And he has established that Lannisters not only pay their debts, but get their revenge (Castamare and so on). He was bold and steely in every small matter, so people began to expect daring things from him.

[Jamie Lannister]

1. "He's really rich" -- yeah, but that's mostly due to his own efforts. His father was a moron who left House Lannister in a state of open mockery and financial ruin, but Tywin turned that around quite efficiently. Now the lion is (or was) feared once more.
2. "Gave Westeros decades of peace as the King's Hand" -- I don't think "peace" is the term used there. It's more "prosperity;" he was a very capable administrator who ruled nicely while King Batshit was going down the slippery slope.
3. "Destroyed the Reynes and Tarbecks" -- that was a good, albeit ruthless, move. By bringing ruin to the most notable offenders against House Lannister's supremacy, the rest fell into line nicely. Remember how House Farman fell back into subservience?
4. "Sacked King's Landing" -- the sack was by no means a positive thing, but rushing there before anyone else definitely was. He duped Aerys into opening the gates, and promptly removed all future threats to King Bob's power (the dirty work, essentially: killing the children, etc.). In doing so, he ensured that no one could deny that House Lannister had forsaken the Targaryen dynasty "forever." It won him the favour of the new king, and he promptly maneuvered himself into the new royal family via marriage. That worked out well, regardless of whether he was aware the next generation was of pure Lannister blood.
5. "Failed to secure the Tyrells" -- I'm not sure how this is really a point against him; the realm rose up in rebellion and the Tyrells pledged themselves unambiguously to King Renly via marriage. Tywin couldn't have really countered that, especially since he had no real line of contact; Renly hatched that scheme without a soul knowing until it was too late. Though, he did send Tyrion to fix up that particular mess, and fixed it was... somewhat.
6. "Defeated Stannis on the Blackwater" -- I'm pretty sure he took a forced march back to King's Landing the moment he learned about Stannis's navy; he had no real intention of getting kited around by the northmen at that point. He was already losing.
7. "Had Robb Stark Killed" -- one of his best moves (don't hate me); he capitalized on one mistake (that, arguably, he and Jeyne's mother were banking on already) to utterly crush Robb and end the war in one swift stroke.

I think his fearsome reputation is well-earned.

Edited by Jamie Lannister, 18 March 2012 - 02:18 PM.

[Great Dayne]

Tywin is far from overrated.  If Tywin was Aerys Hand during the rebellion, we would never be where we are now.

[TheCheesecakeMassacre]

Jamie Lannister, on 18 March 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

6. "Defeated Stannis on the Blackwater" -- I'm pretty sure he took a forced march back to King's Landing the moment he learned about Stannis's navy; he had no real intention of getting kited around by the northmen at that point. He was already losing.

He was trying to go west but was repelled by Edmure, meaning outriders met him to tell him of the seige. And in the battle itself Tywin played second fiddle as commander of 1 flank, it was mainly a Tyrell victory.

[Jamie Lannister]

TheCheesecakeMassacre, on 18 March 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

He was trying to go west but was repelled by Edmure, meaning outriders met him to tell him of the seige. And in the battle itself Tywin played second fiddle as commander of 1 flank, it was mainly a Tyrell victory.

Oh of course. Well I give you that; being outplayed by Edmure Tully is perhaps not a flattering point.

[Melq]

TheCheesecakeMassacre, on 18 March 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

So I was re-reading AFFC last night and had a thought, what makes Tywin so great?

1) He's really rich- Anyone could be with the rich mines of the Westerlands.
2) Gave Westeros decades of peace as King's Hand- Only because under normal circumstances, major rebellions wouldn't happen as they would be crushed alone. It took the extraordinary events of Lyanna's kidnapping and the murder of many nobles to start a serious rebellion with many rebels and wasn't due to an incompetent Hand.
3) Destroyed the Reyne's and Tarbeck's- One house vs all of the Westerlands.
4) Sacked King's Landing- With the loyalists defeated or at Storm's End vs the full power of the West.
5) Failed to secure the Tyrell's support during the War of the 5 Kings, Renly would have won the war were it not for Stannis having magic.
6) Defeated Stannis on the Blackwater- Almost lured into a trap by the Northern alliance which would have seen the city fall. If he had not met up with a huge Tyrell force won over by Littlefinger then the city may very well have fallen.
7) Has Robb Stark and many Northern commanders killed- If Robb had not been an idiot and broken his vows then the Wedding would have gone as planned, not down to Tywin's planning.

Short of it is- All of Tywin's successes have been down to either his massive resources or luck.

I have been thinking similar to you for some time now, If wasn't for the good luck and because Littlefinger didn't wanted Stannis as King, Lannisters bastards abominations wouldn't be sitting on the Iron Throne

Hes did accomplish a lot, I don't deny it, but never at the level of The North, The Vale (rebellion), Riverlands or Iron Islands.

There is also the Rebellion of the Iron Islands Nine years before AGoT, Tywin needed the support of the north and others lands to protect the Westerlands.

Mace Tyrell is also very rich, and we see all the times he have failed at wars GRRM always hints us with the real strength of different westeros lands.

[Humphrey Plantagenet]

Everyone who passes comment in the novels respects Tywin’s proficiency, if not his methods or character. One of the themes of the series is just how difficult it is to rule…and this would apply even to men who come once in a thousand years. So he didn’t have a perfect record. But the redemption of his house and his record as hand, at such a young age, gained everybody’s respect. His weak point was Tyrion, although not in the way he himself thought. Things would have been very different if Tyrion hadn’t climbed that ladder.

[Ramsay Gimp]

He's a competent but far from brilliant general. His real strength and dangerousness lies in his administrative & political skills

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Yes, Tywin Lannister is overrated. He is a capable administrator, a deft politician, a mediocre commander and a gigantic ruthless asshole. Nothing less, but nothing more.
He was capable as Kings Hand, but nothing too difficult happened. He restored House Lannister, but he had only subordinate houses to contest again and the backing of the Iron Throne.
And in the War of the Five Kings, he lucked through.

[Dracarya]

Tyrion defeated Stannis on the Blackwater, not Tywin. Tywin did fuck all except turn up late to the party and take Stannis' army from behind. Sly. Without Tyrions' cunning, Stannis had a strong chance of winning that battle.

On the other points, meh, Tywin was a douche. I think it was more down to his mannerisms and attitude than anything - he didn't fuck about, he got things done. People knew that, and by eliminating the Reynes and Tarbecks he proved his muscle, so to speak. He also had a lot of undesirables in his pay, namely the Cleganes and their companions, which would put the fear of the Seven into anyone who crossed him. He has also had a lot of good luck - luck that the Westerlings were willing to go along with his plan, luck that Robb fell in love with Jeyne, luck that that meant the Freys had reason to be pissed off with Robb, enough so to forsake the guest right and slay him and his men at the wedding.

Yeah, Tywin wasn't all that.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

I think Tywin mostly deserves his reputation. He is ruthless and cruel and that is effective in Westeros. He managed to win the war against the Starks without defeating Robb in the field- which I hate him for, but I can't say I don't respect the fact that it was an effective strategy. He is too cruel a man for me to like him as a ruler, but he is obviously a man to be feared as an opponent.

That said, he came very close to making an epic mistake at the start of the war. He planned on luring Ned Stark out of King's Landing by attacking the Riverlands and then having Gregor Clegane ambush and capture Ned. Instead, Ned got injured and sent Beric Dondarrion instead. But if he had sent Loras Tyrell, who volunteered for the task, Loras would have been ambushed and possibly captured or killed, earning Tywin the hatred of the Tyrells and essentially guaranteeing them as enemies, which would have been fatal to his chances at victory.

And if Ned had not been injured and ended up going himself, Tywin would have been attacking the Hand of the King. Assuming Tywin had no way of knowing that Robert was going to die in the boar hunt, he should have expected that this action would almost certainly have shocked Robert out of his drunken gluttonous stupor and turned him into a formidable opponent. All in all, not one of Tywin's best plans and he is very lucky that Ned sent Beric instead of Loras, and that Robert died shortly after.

Edited by OnionAhaiReborn, 18 March 2012 - 03:07 PM.

[Ojji]

No, Tywin wasn't overrated.

Put some thought to it on your re-read, no offense.

[the Scorpion Knight]

to quote jack kirby:
a thug is a thug doesn't matter if he wears an uniform

he had the possibilty thward this rebellion by deposing aerys once he started showing signs of losing it he did nothing to HELP HIS(former or not ) BEST Friend
instead of going to ned (or robert) and demand answers or least that the trial be done in king's Landing he send his beast to ravage the riverlands
instead of swallowing his pride and do help create somthing called peace he helps initiating the slaughtering of one half and shaming the other of  an ancient house
not to mention his treatment of his children

[Ojji]

the Scorpion Knight, on 18 March 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

to quote jack kirby:
a thug is a thug doesn't matter if he wears an uniform

he had the possibilty thward this rebellion by deposing aerys once he started showing signs of losing it he did nothing to HELP HIS(former or not ) BEST Friend
instead of going to ned (or robert) and demand answers or least that the trial be done in king's Landing he send his beast to ravage the riverlands
instead of swallowing his pride and do help create somthing called peace he helps initiating the slaughtering of one half and shaming the other of  an ancient house
not to mention his treatment of his children

This post makes no sense to me.

edit: Comparing Tywin Lannister for a thug is absurd, btw.

Edited by Ojji, 18 March 2012 - 03:24 PM.

[LuisDantas]

Tywin was both a very capable (if misguided and in some respects foolish) man and an over-rated one.

His most remarkable quality is his unbreakable resolve.  In many ways, that is also his fatal flaw.  He over-reacted to his father's perceived flaws and became somewhat of a proto-Joffrey from a very early age.  It got impressive results, but also made him the freakish, insufferable person that he was.

I would feel sorry for him if his hands held a little less blood and misery.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

The turned House Lannister from laughing stocks to the most powerful family in all the Seven Kingdoms. Robert ruled in name, but Tywin ruled in truth. He made sure his daughter was to be Queen. He loaned the treasury 3 million dragons, making Robert forever in his debt. He was positioned pretty damn well at the start of the series. The death of Robert and his restoration to the Handship would have solidified everything but his biggest mistake was under-estimating Tyrion yet again.

[Patchface12]

Owen Merryweather just sat around sending letters throughout the entire war, asking lords to fight Robert without doing much.

Jon Connington already said how Tywin would have won the battle at Stoney Sept in his POV's.

But if Tywin had been Hand when the rebellion started, it would have ended pretty long before any of that. He'd have gone right to the Stormlands where Robert was gathering his bannermen and kicked his ass in a heartbeat before he, Ned, Hoster Tully, and Jon Arryn could join their forces in the Riverlands.

An incompetent Hand was the reason the rebellion got as bad as it did.

Edited by Patchface12, 18 March 2012 - 09:00 PM.

[the rag doll]

Do not. Diss. The Tywin.

[lomiller]

I forget where he says it but Tywin has a conversation where he explains you don't wound enemies and then leave them alive, but not only does he make this error himself he does it in about as bit a way as possible.  Not only does he wound both the Starks and Targaryens and fails to finish them off, the ones he leaves alive are the most dangerous of all.

Based on that I'd say he's overrated.