161 replies to this topic

[mor2]

corbon, on 25 April 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

The facts are though, his military performance was poor, strategically and tactically.

We all have our facts, I consider Tywin to be one of the best strategist around.

[Chronicler]

OnionAhaiReborn, on 18 March 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

I think Tywin mostly deserves his reputation. He is ruthless and cruel and that is effective in Westeros. He managed to win the war against the Starks without defeating Robb in the field- which I hate him for, but I can't say I don't respect the fact that it was an effective strategy. He is too cruel a man for me to like him as a ruler, but he is obviously a man to be feared as an opponent.

That said, he came very close to making an epic mistake at the start of the war. He planned on luring Ned Stark out of King's Landing by attacking the Riverlands and then having Gregor Clegane ambush and capture Ned. Instead, Ned got injured and sent Beric Dondarrion instead. But if he had sent Loras Tyrell, who volunteered for the task, Loras would have been ambushed and possibly captured or killed, earning Tywin the hatred of the Tyrells and essentially guaranteeing them as enemies, which would have been fatal to his chances at victory.

And if Ned had not been injured and ended up going himself, Tywin would have been attacking the Hand of the King. Assuming Tywin had no way of knowing that Robert was going to die in the boar hunt, he should have expected that this action would almost certainly have shocked Robert out of his drunken gluttonous stupor and turned him into a formidable opponent. All in all, not one of Tywin's best plans and he is very lucky that Ned sent Beric instead of Loras, and that Robert died shortly after.

How is he cruel? >_>

Seems to me like he is a good man in general.

[Castel]

Chronicler, on 25 April 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

How is he cruel? >_>

Seems to me like he is a good man in general.

Tyrion  would disagree

He's generally pragmatic, but he can be a douche

Edited by Castel, 25 April 2012 - 11:50 PM.

[corbon]

mor2, on 25 April 2012 - 11:26 PM, said:

We all have our facts, I consider Tywin to be one of the best strategist around.

No, we don't all.
No facts have been put forward to support Tywin's abilities as a military legend. Lots of opinions, no facts.

Fact: he achieved nothing at all while in command for 6 months at Duskendale (possibly he didn't want to, but that is by the by).
Fact: he was fooled by Robb and treated his opponent with disdain.
Fact: he failed to do anything positive in the battle with Roose - his plan didn't work and he let Roose's army of foot get away without pursuit.
Fact: his strategy after that battle was a failure, sitting in Harrenhal doing nothing (militarily) until he was forced to head west by Robb.
Fact: he failed to cross the Trident against Edmure's previously beaten army and sustained heavy casualties before being forced to retreat.

Where are the facts that support his reputation? There are none, just opinions and unknown old history.

People can have opinions that he used classic internal lines strategy or whatever, but none of the above can be truly denied. Every time he had a plan the enemy thwarted it. He started with initiative and more and better equipped troops. He ended reacting to his opponent, still failing to achieve his attempted reaction, and with a critically weakened army.
If that's the best strategist around then the words best and/or strategist simply don't mean what I thought they mean.

Politically he got out of the military situation he was in (more due to the actions of others than himself). But militarily his performance was extremely poor by any standard, especially extremely poor by the standard of his reputation.

[corbon]

Chronicler, on 25 April 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

How is he cruel? >_>

Seems to me like he is a good man in general.

How is he not?
His treatment of Tyrion.
His treatment of Tysha.
His extreme flouting of social convention (the Reynes and Castameres, endorsing the Red Wedding).
His treatment of his father's mistress.

[Chronicler]

corbon, on 26 April 2012 - 04:36 AM, said:

How is he not?
His treatment of Tyrion.
His treatment of Tysha.
His extreme flouting of social convention (the Reynes and Castameres, endorsing the Red Wedding).
His treatment of his father's mistress.

From how I see it he has never bullied Tyrion for being a dwarf, sure he has resented him, but never bullied, I mean Tyrion himself hates Tywin, but don't have a reason until he finds out about Tysha.
It's more like he has been reprimanding Tyrion for his behaviour and in the end it doesn't matter that Tywin was whoring as well, because 1. He did it in secret obviously and 2. Isn't that how he is suppose to bring up his kids?

Treatment of Tysha seems pretty extreme sure, but then again Tywin is pretty extreme isn't he, and he wanted to teach Tyrion a lesson, I mean they married without his consent, and he married a peasant pretty much. Tywin not happy.

Tywin said the red wedding saved lives, I buy that reasoning, even if it was cold. And the Reynes etc rose in rebellion no?

And his fathers mistress stole and misbehaved? And all he did was force her to walk naked through Lannisport...not that bad =p

But anyhow, hard and cruel are two different things imo.

[Gurkhal]

corbon, on 26 April 2012 - 04:34 AM, said:

No, we don't all.
No facts have been put forward to support Tywin's abilities as a military legend. Lots of opinions, no facts.

Alot of people like to put forward opinions as substitute for facts regarding Tywin's lack of quality as a military commander but that's maybe beside the point.

corbon, on 26 April 2012 - 04:34 AM, said:

Fact: he achieved nothing at all while in command for 6 months at Duskendale (possibly he didn't want to, but that is by the by).

If he had done anything then the rebels would've hanged the king. There was previously little that could be done untill Ser Barristan Selmy rescued Aerys.

corbon, on 26 April 2012 - 04:34 AM, said:

Fact: he was fooled by Robb and treated his opponent with disdain.

True.

corbon, on 26 April 2012 - 04:34 AM, said:

Fact: he failed to do anything positive in the battle with Roose - his plan didn't work and he let Roose's army of foot get away without pursuit.

I think it speaks more of Roose's ability to preserve his forces than Tywin's ability because no matter how you turn it the Northmen were soundly defeated and several of their nobles taken prisoner.

corbon, on 26 April 2012 - 04:34 AM, said:

Fact: his strategy after that battle was a failure, sitting in Harrenhal doing nothing (militarily) until he was forced to head west by Robb.

I think it was very successful. He maintained his army, he prevented Robb Stark from striking at King's Landing and the Crownlands while the Leffords would supposedly have held the Northmen from crossing into the West, where a new army was assembled that could tak part in a two-pronged attack against the Riverlands. Also by sitting in Harrenhall Tywin was close enough to be able to interviene with any attack against King's Landing from the south and held a good position if Robb would decide to seek battle with Tywin. In all I think it was a pretty good strategy if perhaps not very flashy.

Also burning the Riverlands was no doubt cruel but did strike against the Riverlords' ability to continue the war against him.

corbon, on 26 April 2012 - 04:34 AM, said:

Fact: he failed to cross the Trident against Edmure's previously beaten army and sustained heavy casualties before being forced to retreat.

True although in his defense Edmure had prepeared defensive positions that Tywin needed to attack and by this time the Mallisters and the Freys had joined up with the Tullys and those seem to be two of the more powerful bannermen of Riverrun.

corbon, on 26 April 2012 - 04:34 AM, said:

Where are the facts that support his reputation? There are none, just opinions and unknown old history.

There isn't much flashy scenes no, but there is a constant level of competence that makes Tywin seldom leave himself open in the way that, say Stafford or Jaime did.

corbon, on 26 April 2012 - 04:34 AM, said:

People can have opinions that he used classic internal lines strategy or whatever, but none of the above can be truly denied. Every time he had a plan the enemy thwarted it. He started with initiative and more and better equipped troops. He ended reacting to his opponent, still failing to achieve his attempted reaction, and with a critically weakened army.
If that's the best strategist around then the words best and/or strategist simply don't mean what I thought they mean.

Actually several parts of what you wrote can easily be denied.

There is nothing to say that Westermen are better troops than Northmen or the other way around.

Tywin is the best strategist because he kept himself in the game and managed the political-military big picture very well. On contrast with this we can take Robb who shows himself as a very fine tactician but with no grasp over the bigger political-military situation.

corbon, on 26 April 2012 - 04:34 AM, said:

Politically he got out of the military situation he was in (more due to the actions of others than himself). But militarily his performance was extremely poor by any standard, especially extremely poor by the standard of his reputation.

Politics and war are much the same but with different methods and while his he didn't impress on the battlefield he didn't shame himself either, he kept himself in the battle and he and his army was still standing when Robb and jhis were dying.

[mor2]

@corbon.  Unlike Rob who just rushed into a fight with no plan. Tywin was prepared for a fight(no other way to explain how he was able to raise his troops so fast) and had backups for backups. He reacted as soon as Catylin abducted his son, a lannister. His plan included sending Gregor into the riverlands, to either draw Ned out and capture him thus making a quick end to this or if it fails he will be raiding the country side keeping the riverlords close to home and in disarray, instead of sending men to riverun for deafens making his job easier. He striked with two armies, with jaime striking at the main riverlands force and riverrun, while he took their undefended holding and securing his position at harrenhall, thus securing a base of operation, with direct road access to both Riverrun and Kings landing, in case he needed to reinforce either one. He also sit on the only river crossing(other than the Frey one) that the Stark host or maybe the Arryns can use, which he can hold easily (good defence position, like the fords).

His plan worked like clockwork, the riverlords were defeated by Jamie in short order, with minimal losses, scatted and river was put under siege, basically victory was all but his. unfortunately the freys, decided to join the loosing side for some reason...(Walder Frey be getting old...) which is ok, no plan survive the first battle, the important plan he didnt rushed into a fight, but had an end game plan and strategy. Unfortunately Rob got lucky with Freys and when Tywin knew what happening it was too late, still he used his brains and made best of the situation and he won.

Here look at the map War_of_the_Five_Kings. Also sorry for my english, on top of my crappy english I am tired and loose focus.

Edited by mor2, 26 April 2012 - 06:48 AM.

[Leto]

Chronicler, on 26 April 2012 - 05:28 AM, said:

But anyhow, hard and cruel are two different things imo.

There is lots of text describing his cruelty, but the Tysha example is more than enough to end the discussion.

Ordering gang-rape of a young girl - Sufficient criteria for cruelty
Making your son watch the gang-rape of his wife - Sufficient for cruelty
Forcing your son to rape his wife - Sufficient for cruelty

Why is this even up for debate? Tywin is way beyond what would be considered a cruel man.

[Ferrous]

corbon, on 26 April 2012 - 04:34 AM, said:

No, we don't all.
No facts have been put forward to support Tywin's abilities as a military legend. Lots of opinions, no facts.


Fact: his strategy after that battle was a failure, sitting in Harrenhal doing nothing (militarily) until he was forced to head west by Robb.

This was the logical move from him strategically.

[Winter's Coming]

Tywin is overrated as his family was being played, unbeknownst to him, by Vary's and LF all along.  LF put him in a costly war with the North by essentially blaming the Lannisters for John Arryn's death.  Vary's was then complicit in the murder of himself and his brother.  At least Ned was out of the politics his whole life.  Tywin lived a life of politics and was outmanouvered by those who were meant to serve him.  This post won't even go into the whole failure in major battles which was spelled out brilliantly by another poster.

Edited by Winter's Coming, 18 May 2012 - 09:50 AM.

[voodooqueen126]

corbon, on 26 April 2012 - 04:36 AM, said:

How is he not? His treatment of Tyrion. His treatment of Tysha. His extreme flouting of social convention (the Reynes and Castameres, endorsing the Red Wedding). His treatment of his father's mistress.

When it goes well with the righteous, the city rejoices, and when the wicked perish, there is song.

[corbon]

Ferrous, on 26 April 2012 - 07:01 AM, said:

This was the logical move from him strategically.

That doesn't change the fact that it was a failure. He outlined his intentions, to force Robb to come to him, yet the result was not that Robb came to him but that he was forced to go after Robb (and failed at that too). He gave the inititiative away (or let Robb keep it).

voodooqueen126, on 18 May 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

When it goes well with the righteous, the city rejoices, and when the wicked perish, there is song.

Sorry, I don't understand? He is both righteous and wicked?

corbon, on 26 April 2012 - 04:34 AM, said:

Fact: he achieved nothing at all while in command for 6 months at Duskendale (possibly he didn't want to, but that is by the by).

I just completed a reread and Barristan's memories on his deed say that it was discussed in war council and Tywin said if Barristan did not complete the mission he would storm the castle immediately.
So he still did nothing for 6 months, but he was going to act eventually, even if forced to by circumstances.

Edited by corbon, 18 May 2012 - 07:48 PM.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Winter, on 18 May 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

Tywin is overrated as his family was being played, unbeknownst to him, by Vary's and LF all along.  LF put him in a costly war with the North by essentially blaming the Lannisters for John Arryn's death.  Vary's was then complicit in the murder of himself and his brother.  At least Ned was out of the politics his whole life.  Tywin lived a life of politics and was outmanouvered by those who were meant to serve him.  This post won't even go into the whole failure in major battles which was spelled out brilliantly by another poster.

Agree. Not only Tywin Lannister is overrated, but he has such an obscene amount of failures, and his successes quite often so dependent on anything but him, that I'm more and more sure that was GRRM's intention all along: to build a character with such a tremendous reputation he must be unstoppable, and then gradually show he didn't earn it and that he hides his failures with arrogance, ruthlessness, coldness and money.

In fact, Tywin's trajectory in the war, and his reputation specifically, works as a reverse mirror to Robb's:

• Tywin begins the war seen as a nearly invincible force of power, a great commander with superior menpower and wealth, with Robb being questioned by his own bannermen and seen as a green boy;
  
• Then Robb reveals himself as an excellent military commander, defeating Tywin's forces every single time in the battlefield; if GRRM wasn't trying to make a point, surely he could have made things more balanced, have Tywin beat him once or twice, even if Robb had the upper hand. Tywin loses even to Edmure of all people, and at that point of the war, is simply a supporting player;
  
• Then LF/Tyrion arrange the Tyrell deal, and things change overnight: it looks like Tywin and the Lannisters will keep on power for good, Tywin will be the shrewd political mastermind, Robb "the King who lost the North"- clearly, in both 2 or 3, the highest point of one is the lowest of the other and vice-versa.
  
• And then the final turning point for both, the Red Wedding.

The RW, at least in Tywin's conception, would be the final masterstroke: it kills Robb and the Starks for good, establishes him as a loser, and consolidates the Lannisters in power...forever, with Tywin as the man that created this dynasty, taking them from ruin (of course, their house was still the richest in Westeros, and had the same goldmines as they did before, but, hey, he's writing history) to the most powerful house of all time.

But of course, ASOIAF (and life) don't work quite that way: rather than destroy the myth of the Robb Stark, the RW is such an outrageous act, and provokes so much anger in the entire realm, that cements him in the minds of everyone in the North, and quite possibly, everyone in the 7K, as the perfect young tragic hero, an unbeatable warrior that was only be defeated by shameless treason.

As for the Tywin, name one good thing that happened to him, or the Lannisters, after the RW. Something that might have looked like a good move looks more disastrous the more Lannister participation becomes clear, and time doesn't make everyone forget. He also dies in the less dignified way possible, everything he tried to build begins to fall apart, and his and his family name become infamous.
Rather than be remembered as the founder of a dinasty, he'll be the monster that killed babies, spawned incestuous twins that had three bastards (one being the second Mad King) and pretty much begun a war, one half of the twins being the first Queen to have a walk of shame through KL, the other the Kingslayer, and also by the fact he's murdered by his Imp son in the crapper, with the Imp's leftover whore in his bed.

I've said before (and still believe it) that part, if not the main reason, for Robb's whole arc was to show how legends are born (the fact people claimed he could even turn into a wolf is further proof of that)., regardless of whether their intention was. But for Tywin, part of the point was to show the other side of it: you can't control your own legend, specially not if you're acting without any regards for the people that you want to remember you, and if you don't really do anything to earn it. That's part of the reason why all oppressive regimes eventually fall, no matter how much lies they try to shove down people's throats.

[danm_999]

TheCheesecakeMassacre, on 18 March 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

So I was re-reading AFFC last night and had a thought, what makes Tywin so great?

1) He's really rich- Anyone could be with the rich mines of the Westerlands.

I was going to itemise my disagreement with each of your points, but I only got to your first point before it became clear your analysis is so far off it's not really worth bothering with them all.

Tywin's father ran the Lannister house into ruin and disrespect, showing both that no, not just anyone could be rich with the mines of the Westerlands, and that Tywin did not inherit the respect and prosperity his house came to be known for. He built it himself.

[Castel]

mor2, on 26 April 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:

@corbon. Unlike Rob who just rushed into a fight with no plan. Tywin was prepared for a fight(no other way to explain how he was able to raise his troops so fast) and had backups for backups. He reacted as soon as Catylin abducted his son, a lannister. His plan included sending Gregor into the riverlands, to either draw Ned out and capture him thus making a quick end to this or if it fails he will be raiding the country side keeping the riverlords close to home and in disarray, instead of sending men to riverun for deafens making his job easier. He striked with two armies, with jaime striking at the main riverlands force and riverrun, while he took their undefended holding and securing his position at harrenhall, thus securing a base of operation, with direct road access to both Riverrun and Kings landing, in case he needed to reinforce either one. He also sit on the only river crossing(other than the Frey one) that the Stark host or maybe the Arryns can use, which he can hold easily (good defence position, like the fords). His plan worked like clockwork, the riverlords were defeated by Jamie in short order, with minimal losses, scatted and river was put under siege, basically victory was all but his. unfortunately the freys, decided to join the loosing side for some reason...(Walder Frey be getting old...) which is ok, no plan survive the first battle, the important plan he didnt rushed into a fight, but had an end game plan and strategy. Unfortunately Rob got lucky with Freys and when Tywin knew what happening it was too late, still he used his brains and made best of the situation and he won. Here look at the map War_of_the_Five_Kings. Also sorry for my english, on top of my crappy english I am tired and loose focus.

Yup, it seems that Walder Frey is still mad at Tywin for things that happened decades ago when he was a kid. It is pretty difficult for anyone to predict the true depths of his pettiness. One would think that he would do the logical thing and stay put, but then he is Walder Frey. It's fascinating to me that someone can nurse a grudge like that.

That said, Lord Frey beat Tywin at his own game. Honestly, I think that he's the actual strategic genius here. He stayed put while the riverlords were smashed, but when he had a chance to prove his loyalty to them since he would have to live with them later on he jumped on a sure thing and landed himself a huge alliance and made himself one of the more important houses in the war. After that plan went to shit for reasons beyond his control, he helped destroy one Great House and usurped the position of the other, as well as getting himself a bunch of nice marriages. Brilliant.

Quote

Tywin is overrated as his family was being played, unbeknownst to him, by Vary's and LF all along. LF put him in a costly war with the North by essentially blaming the Lannisters for John Arryn's death. Vary's was then complicit in the murder of himself and his brother. At least Ned was out of the politics his whole life. Tywin lived a life of politics and was outmanouvered by those who were meant to serve him. This post won't even go into the whole failure in major battles which was spelled out brilliantly by another poster.

I don't get this argument. There was literally no way for Tywin to predict Varys and LF's involvement in the kidnapping of his son. He acted on the information he had and he acted in a way that was pretty sound.  If we judge people by how badly they got manipulated by LF and Varys, EVERYONE is an idiot. It's not whether or not you got manipulated, but whether or not you should have been able to predict and stop it.

I don't see how pointing out that Varys killed him and his brother is something that Tywin should somehow be faulted for, Varys was a useful asset, who until that point had shown little to no signs of being a traitor, and Tywin already mistrusted and was presumably watching him. He just couldn't predict that Varys knew about the hidden tunnels into the Tower of the Hand, otherwise all went well.

[Helgar]

Tywin was never "outmaneuvered" by Varys or Littlefinger. When dealing with a realistic world like that of aSoIaF, we have to think realistically; Tywin, for all his brilliance, lacks the ability to gaze into the future or read minds. Varys was untrustworthy, yes, but it takes more than being untrustworthy to have someone executed, and Varys seemed to serve House Lannister well. Tywin couldn't have known about YG, Illyrio, or Varys's involvement in the case of Daenerys, Khal Drogo, and the other secret plots Varys has been concocting. As for Littlefinger, he has never given a hint of treachery besides the entire knife business, which Tyrion himself set aside after a few chapters in aCoK, as LF was too valuable to cast down in a time of financial crisis.

Tywin was faced with three enemies who hated Lannister more than they hated each other, and stood strong when all three of them were being destroyed. He is a heartless asshole, he cares about his House's honor more than the lives of thousands of people, he condones and instigates murder and betrayal in his favor with every breath, but Tywin's worth as a strategist is undeniable. If not for Tyrion, he would have won the War of Five Kings and we all know it.

[mor2]

Winterfell is Burning, on 19 May 2012 - 01:26 AM, said:

[*]Tywin begins the war seen as a nearly invincible force of power, a great commander with superior menpower and wealth, with Robb being questioned by his own bannermen and seen as a green boy;
[*]Then Robb reveals himself as an excellent military commander, defeating Tywin's forces every single time in the battlefield; if GRRM wasn't trying to make a point, surely he could have made things more balanced, have Tywin beat him once or twice, even if Robb had the upper hand. Tywin loses even to Edmure of all people, and at that point of the war, is simply a supporting player;

I agree, GRRM indeed tried to make a "point", I suspect you'll notice the same point being used in the next book with young griff, just before he'll be killed...

p.s. Tywin never lost to Edmure in open battle, he failed to cross the fords which gave the defending troop a huge advantage, I'd be surprised if he would have won. Also Rob won when his mother made the deal with the Frey's, other than that all those victories were all easy victories and "magical" assistants.

[StannisandDaeny]

He does have 'luck' a couple of times, but I think it only becomes apparent because he plays out the opportunities he has perfectly, always making the most of what he gets, and that's why he's so feared: everyone knows the moment you slip up, he'll hit you in a way no one will see coming with extreme ruthlessness. He's far from perfect but if you compare him to many other 'players' he's still very good, partially because he's very versatile in his skills. Alienating his extremely competent son Tyrion from him simply because he's a dwarf was a *huge* flaw though. With Tyrion's full support House Lannister would have been much better off, I think we can gather that much from his period as Hand. The characters do overrate him sometimes though, like that guy who says 'He's already defeated Stannis on the Blackwater.' It was a surprise rear attack of 86 800 against less than 20 000 already engaged forces that hardly fought back because of the 'Ghost of Renly-effect', effin' Mace Tyrell could have won that battle under those circumstances...

Edited by StannisandDaeny, 19 May 2012 - 04:30 AM.

[corbon]

mor2, on 19 May 2012 - 04:18 AM, said:

p.s. Tywin never lost to Edmure in open battle, he failed to cross the fords which gave the defending troop a huge advantage, I'd be surprised if he would have won.

If he couldn't win, then he was an idiot for trying.

oh, wait he had no choice because he'd given the initiative to Robb by his masterstroke of sitting at Harrenhal, and Robb had used the initiative to force Tywin to try to return to the Westerlands even though he faced a disadvantageous fight at the Fords.
Yep, clearly he's not over-rated  when considered one of the finest strategists in the Seven Kingdoms... /sarcasm