161 replies to this topic

[StannisandDaeny]

Not to mention that it would've ended even worse for him if Edmure had played into Robb's original plan.

[Talleyrand]

StannisandDaeny, on 20 May 2012 - 03:55 PM, said:

Not to mention that it would've ended even worse for him if Edmure had played into Robb's original plan.

Robb's original plan wasn't too great. Taking on a larger enemy on his home ground is generally not considered the best strategy.

[StannisandDaeny]

They had scouted the area extensively and were going to catch Tywin on difficult ground, where his cavalry wouldn't be able to make the difference. Judging by Robb's past military successes and how Tywin was willing to attack Edmure despite geographical disadvantages it could've turned out to be a great plan, especially with the Riverlords at Lord Tywin's back. Even if Tywin didn't choose to fight on the difficult ground (which would have been out of character for someone who always wants to appear strong), it would've been a nasty retreat and he would've eventually been caught between Robb's chasing army and Edmure's forces guarding the fords.

Edited by StannisandDaeny, 20 May 2012 - 05:39 PM.

[Castel]

StannisandDaeny, on 20 May 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

They had scouted the area extensively and were going to catch Tywin on difficult ground, where his cavalry wouldn't be able to make the difference. Judging by Robb's past military successes and how Tywin was willing to attack Edmure despite geographical disadvantages it could've turned out to be a great plan, especially with the Riverlords at Lord Tywin's back. Even if Tywin didn't attack, it would've made a nasty retreat and he would've eventually been caught between Robb's chasing army and Edmure's forces guarding the fords.

Did Tywin attack Edmure, or did Edmure stop him from coming across the ford my memory is failing me.

[StannisandDaeny]

Tywin advanced despite knowing Edmure's forces were in the way, and failed to break through. He only cancelled the attack when messengers reached him he should get his ass over to King's Landing to fend off Stannis. Not that it was really necessary (from a purely tactical point of view) - the Tyrell host alone outnumbered Stannis' army by far.

Edited by StannisandDaeny, 20 May 2012 - 05:44 PM.

[Eggplant Wizard]

I don't know about the RW valorizing Robb. I feel like there's no textual support that people all over the 7 Kingdoms love Robb and admire him. If they did then the other kings would have an awfully hard time raising and maintaining a standing army.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Eggplant Wizard, on 20 May 2012 - 05:52 PM, said:

I don't know about the RW valorizing Robb. I feel like there's no textual support that people all over the 7 Kingdoms love Robb and admire him. If they did then the other kings would have an awfully hard time raising and maintaining a standing army.

No, but the RW was considered revolting in the entire realm, not only in the North. In a SC meeting, someone (Varys, I think) even mentions that the people were mad and wanted justice for the Freys, we see it in the Vale as well, etc. Breaking the tradition was considered barbaric, and naturally brought some sympathy to all the victims.

[Ragnorak]

Tywin never really ruled anything until just before Robert's Rebellion.  He became Hand before his father died and served under Aerys. After his father died he remained Hand so the day to day ruling of Casterly Rock was done by someone else.  Anyone with a reputation as a "brilliant ruler" who has never actually ruled is almost by definition overrated.

Tywin, the single richest man in the seven kingdoms and leader of one of the most powerful Houses, never even managed to successfully arrange a marriage for any of his children.  That is "being a Lord 101."  The Robert/Cersei marriage was Jon Arryn's idea.  Even Brienne's father managed to arrange three for her.

I wouldn't claim the man is a blithering idiot, but he is far from the demigod some make him out to be.

[Winter's Coming]

Castel, on 19 May 2012 - 01:44 AM, said:

Yup, it seems that Walder Frey is still mad at Tywin for things that happened decades ago when he was a kid. It is pretty difficult for anyone to predict the true depths of his pettiness. One would think that he would do the logical thing and stay put, but then he is Walder Frey. It's fascinating to me that someone can nurse a grudge like that.

That said, Lord Frey beat Tywin at his own game. Honestly, I think that he's the actual strategic genius here. He stayed put while the riverlords were smashed, but when he had a chance to prove his loyalty to them since he would have to live with them later on he jumped on a sure thing and landed himself a huge alliance and made himself one of the more important houses in the war. After that plan went to shit for reasons beyond his control, he helped destroy one Great House and usurped the position of the other, as well as getting himself a bunch of nice marriages. Brilliant.









I don't get this argument. There was literally no way for Tywin to predict Varys and LF's involvement in the kidnapping of his son. He acted on the information he had and he acted in a way that was pretty sound.  If we judge people by how badly they got manipulated by LF and Varys, EVERYONE is an idiot. It's not whether or not you got manipulated, but whether or not you should have been able to predict and stop it.

I don't see how pointing out that Varys killed him and his brother is something that Tywin should somehow be faulted for, Varys was a useful asset, who until that point had shown little to no signs of being a traitor, and Tywin already mistrusted and was presumably watching him. He just couldn't predict that Varys knew about the hidden tunnels into the Tower of the Hand, otherwise all went well.

Tywin was the hand for 20 years or so and didn't have any good information on those that served on the small council with him.  Ned figured out that Varys and LF were douchebags in about a week.  Tywin never figured it out, and like Ned, he ended up dead for it.  I'll tell you this, had Tywin been in King's landing during Ned's brief stint as Hand, Tywin would have ended up with his head on a spike.  The only thing that saved the Lannister's is that Robert got killed by that boar (ie. plot armour).  Ned always knew that the Lannister's were self serving scum, and he came to King's landing to clean them out.  Had Robert lived, Ned would have told him the truth and the Lannister's would have been wiped off the face of Westeros.

[kkae]

Winter, on 05 June 2012 - 12:55 PM, said:

Tywin was the hand for 20 years or so and didn't have any good information on those that served on the small council with him.  Ned figured out that Varys and LF were douchebags in about a week.  Tywin never figured it out, and like Ned, he ended up dead for it.

I don't think Varys and LF are douchebags but Tywin knew who they were. He calls them (Pycelle, LF & Varys) jackanapes which I think means mischievous or something. Besides LF came to KL long after Tywin was Hand.

Winter, on 05 June 2012 - 12:55 PM, said:

I'll tell you this, had Tywin been in King's landing during Ned's brief stint as Hand, Tywin would have ended up with his head on a spike.  The only thing that saved the Lannister's is that Robert got killed by that boar (ie. plot armour).  Ned always knew that the Lannister's were self serving scum, and he came to King's landing to clean them out.  Had Robert lived, Ned would have told him the truth and the Lannister's would have been wiped off the face of Westeros.

That is a story we never get to read.

Edited by kkae, 05 June 2012 - 01:37 PM.

[Castel]

Winter, on 05 June 2012 - 12:55 PM, said:

Tywin was the hand for 20 years or so and didn't have any good information on those that served on the small council with him.  Ned figured out that Varys and LF were douchebags in about a week.  Tywin never figured it out, and like Ned, he ended up dead for it.  I'll tell you this, had Tywin been in King's landing during Ned's brief stint as Hand, Tywin would have ended up with his head on a spike.  The only thing that saved the Lannister's is that Robert got killed by that boar (ie. plot armour).  Ned always knew that the Lannister's were self serving scum, and he came to King's landing to clean them out.  Had Robert lived, Ned would have told him the truth and the Lannister's would have been wiped off the face of Westeros.

Tywin knew exactly what Littlefinger and Varys were. The issue wasn't whether or not they were self-serving schemers, it was whether it was in their best interest to be his schemers, and most of the time he was right. It's no different from Tyrion using Bronn, there's an element of uncertainty there, which is why he tended to try to make himself the better choice in their eyes. As for the rest...shoulda could woulda.  I honestly don't like having meta arguments (they can justify anything e.g. the only reason that Robb won anything is because Martin wanted to make a point. See? but the things you are talking about are Cersei and Jaime's failures.

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Tywin, the single richest man in the seven kingdoms and leader of one of the most powerful Houses, never even managed to successfully arrange a marriage for any of his children. That is "being a Lord 101." The Robert/Cersei marriage was Jon Arryn's idea. Even Brienne's father managed to arrange three for her.

Tywin did plan to marry his children, Cersei and Jaime shat on that plan. The problem is that someone like Tywin can't have his children marry beneath their rank like Hightower's daughter and Jorah, especially since he only has one of each sex. Tyrion also wasn't able to marry anyone from a Great House for obvious reasons.

He did have a marriage arranged for Jaime and one for Cersei (though that was less certain). Jaime mucked one up and Aerys the other. One was unfixable and the other...better to wait  Who knows, Elia may have died. There was no reason for him to act immediately.

[Winter's Coming]

Castel, on 05 June 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

Tywin knew exactly what Littlefinger and Varys were. The issue wasn't whether or not they were self-serving schemers, it was whether it was in their best interest to be his schemers, and most of the time he was right. It's no different from Tyrion using Bronn, there's an element of uncertainty there, which is why he tended to try to make himself the better choice in their eyes. As for the rest...shoulda could woulda.  I honestly don't like having meta arguments (they can justify anything e.g. the only reason that Robb won anything is because Martin wanted to make a point. See? but the things you are talking about are Cersei and Jaime's failures.



Tywin did plan to marry his children, Cersei and Jaime shat on that plan. The problem is that someone like Tywin can't have his children marry beneath their rank like Hightower's daughter and Jorah, especially since he only has one of each sex. Tyrion also wasn't able to marry anyone from a Great House for obvious reasons.

He did have a marriage arranged for Jaime and one for Cersei (though that was less certain). Jaime mucked one up and Aerys the other. One was unfixable and the other...better to wait  Who knows, Elia may have died. There was no reason for him to act immediately.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that he knew who they were, but because of his lack of honour and his general hubris, he failed to see that they were plotting against his family.  He had so much ego, that he dared not believe that these conspiring eunichs and lowborns would dare cross the powerful Lannister family.  His hubris in the end led to his demise as he played the game and lost.  In this, he is overrated as a mastermind, because he should have been more wary of those who could potentially bring down his family.  Not to mention that he was completely lost as a father and grandfather.  How could he let Cersei and Joffery be so completely out of control?  Were he wise and not just arrogant he would have reigned Cersei in well before she created a monstrous evil child.  Seeing that Tywin enjoyed the company of people such as the Mountain, however, maybe he simply didn't see it as a problem that he had a sociopath as a grandson.  To me, that is a failure as well.  Is he so sort sighted that he failed to see how having a mad king on the throne ended the last time?

[Castel]

Winter, on 06 June 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

I guess the point I was trying to make is that he knew who they were, but because of his lack of honour and his general hubris, he failed to see that they were plotting against his family.  He had so much ego, that he dared not believe that these conspiring eunichs and lowborns would dare cross the powerful Lannister family.

Nope, he assumed that Varys and Littlefinger were sane human beings and would go with the person that most looked after their interests. For Littlefinger that was the Lannisters. Unfortunately he was insane and so was playing a game that normal, sane people couldn't predict. Varys had proven to be loyal throughout most of his tenure and replacing him in this tumultuous time perhaps wasn't the best idea. It's not that he didn't consider that they'd plot against him, he pretty much wants to take Varys' head and jumps to the conclusion that it was Varys that let Tyrion in his chambers, he thinks, rightfully since LF's power and Varys' life depend on Lannister fortunes, that he was their better deal.

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His hubris in the end led to his demise as he played the game and lost.  In this, he is overrated as a mastermind, because he should have been more wary of those who could potentially bring down his family.

As I said he was plenty wary, he was undone because Jaime went crazy on Varys and because Varys exhibited knowledge of tunnels he was supposed to know nothing about. Without those two things nothing would have gone wrong.

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Not to mention that he was completely lost as a father and grandfather.  How could he let Cersei and Joffery be so completely out of control?

He didn't raise Joff, in fact he was on the other side of the continent. That was Cersei and Robert's responsibility. Cersei was a sociopath, there is only so much you can do about that since, you know, they're very good at putting on a nice face. And by all indications she started on this road very early so it may have been a biological thing.

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Were he wise and not just arrogant he would have reigned Cersei in well before she created a monstrous evil child.  Seeing that Tywin enjoyed the company of people such as the Mountain, however, maybe he simply didn't see it as a problem that he had a sociopath as a grandson.  To me, that is a failure as well.  Is he so sort sighted that he failed to see how having a mad king on the throne ended the last time?

Again, Tywin is in Casterly Rock. Joff was raised in King's Landing by Robert. Two totally different places, and not his responsibility. Robert abdicated his role as a father and so Joff came out crazy

And he was planning to reign in his psychopath of a grandson when he came to town.

[Winter's Coming]

Castel, on 06 June 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

Nope, he assumed that Varys and Littlefinger were sane human beings and would go with the person that most looked after their interests. For Littlefinger that was the Lannisters. Unfortunately he was insane and so was playing a game that normal, sane people couldn't predict. Varys had proven to be loyal throughout most of his tenure and replacing him in this tumultuous time perhaps wasn't the best idea. It's not that he didn't consider that they'd plot against him, he pretty much wants to take Varys' head and jumps to the conclusion that it was Varys that let Tyrion in his chambers, he thinks, rightfully since LF's power and Varys' life depend on Lannister fortunes, that he was their better deal.



As I said he was plenty wary, he was undone because Jaime went crazy on Varys and because Varys exhibited knowledge of tunnels he was supposed to know nothing about. Without those two things nothing would have gone wrong.



He didn't raise Joff, in fact he was on the other side of the continent. That was Cersei and Robert's responsibility. Cersei was a sociopath, there is only so much you can do about that since, you know, they're very good at putting on a nice face. And by all indications she started on this road very early so it may have been a biological thing.




Again, Tywin is in Casterly Rock. Joff was raised in King's Landing by Robert. Two totally different places, and not his responsibility. Robert abdicated his role as a father and so Joff came out crazy

And he was planning to reign in his psychopath of a grandson when he came to town.

Not buying it.  Had he been a good father he would have noted his crazy kids behaviour and would have tried to curb the craziness.  Jamie didn't just go crazy.  He was always crazy.  He passed on being the heir of the rock to be a Kingsgaurd and then he killed his king.  That kid is straight f'd up.  The Lannister's are all a product of growing up in a household where butchering innocents was justified and a regular course of business.  That screwed up the kids.  Tywin was too dumb to realize that his heirs were going to screw up his family legacy that was so important to him.

Tywin lost a battle to Edmure Tully.  Fail.

Tywin was killed by the only child of his that had any redeeming qualities because he abused him his whole life.  Fail.

Tywin was being set up to be overthrown by Varys for 17 years, and he had no clue.  Fail.

Tywin has set the world against himself because of his brutality to the people, those he was meant to serve, and his legacy and family name will forever be tarnished for it (that is if the Lannister's survive as an important house).  Epic Fail.

Cersei should have fun as the Targs, the North, Stannis, the Martel's, and the Vale eventually sweep down upon them with wrath in their hearts because of the great leadership Tywin has shown over the years.  RIP Tommen, your fat head will look nice on a spike.

[Castel]

Winter, on 06 June 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

Not buying it.  Had he been a good father he would have noted his crazy kids behaviour and would have tried to curb the craziness.  Jamie didn't just go crazy.  He was always crazy.  He passed on being the heir of the rock to be a Kingsgaurd and then he killed his king.  That kid is straight f'd up.

Jaime is in fact the sanest of the kids. Jaime did what he did for love and if we were talking about any other character we would have people jumping up and praising his romantic decision. Caring for the woman you love more than a castle isn't a sign of craziness, especially if you're a teenager about to be torn away from your lover to marry someone you've never met.

Jaime didn't display any signs of insanity as far as we can tell, because he wasn't insane.

He killed Aerys for pretty understandable reasons that were gone over in the series. I don't think I need to go over them again. He was a child and he acted quick like kids do.

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The Lannister's are all a product of growing up in a household where butchering innocents was justified and a regular course of business.  That screwed up the kids.  Tywin was too dumb to realize that his heirs were going to screw up his family legacy that was so important to him.

Pray tell, what butchered innocents are you talking about? You don't perhaps mean war which is a constant spectre in every household in Westeros?

Also, TV logic is seeping in here. Tywin never claims that his legacy is the most important thing like he does in the show. It's quite possible that he's doing everything that he does for his own personal pride.

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Tywin lost a battle to Edmure Tully.  Fail.

Yes, because losing one minor battle is clearly a sign that your reputation isn't deserved.

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Tywin was killed by the only child of his that had any redeeming qualities because he abused him his whole life.  Fail.

Which only happened because someone had a piece of information that was relegated to folklore and stories.

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Tywin was being set up to be overthrown by Varys for 17 years, and he had no clue.  Fail.

Everyone was being manipulated by Varys. And most of them much longer than Tywin. You do remember that Tywin only really gained power after he beat Stannis right? Varys was protected by Aerys and Robert before that. It was Robert that Varys was attempting to overthrow, how exactly Tywin was supposed to know about this is beyond me.


He's not a mind reader.

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Tywin has set the world against himself because of his brutality to the people, those he was meant to serve, and his legacy and family name will forever be tarnished for it (that is if the Lannister's survive as an important house).  Epic Fail.

Actually, Tywin's reputation was highly valuable to him. Just look at the collective sigh of relief when he dies. People actually get hopeful that they can win again because the most competent and ruthless man on the other side is dead. As for his family name being tarnished? Who gives a shit? His work served a purpose and it was useful to him, he didn't fuck up his family, others did.

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Cersei should have fun as the Targs, the North, Stannis, the Martel's, and the Vale eventually sweep down upon them with wrath in their hearts because of the great leadership Tywin has shown over the years.  RIP Tommen, your fat head will look nice on a spike.

You mean the leadership of Cersei, you seem to be confusing points now. The Vale was in the hands of  one of his cronies. The North was as well, and Doran Martell is a doughy pushover that has never made a bold decision in his life. Stannis was personally smashed by Tywin himself. Things were good when Tywin died, someone else fucked it up.

Edited by Castel, 06 June 2012 - 10:59 AM.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Castel, on 06 June 2012 - 10:58 AM, said:

You mean the leadership of Cersei, you seem to be confusing points now. The Vale was in the hands of  one of his cronies. The North was as well, and Doran Martell is a doughy pushover that has never made a bold decision in his life. Stannis was personally smashed by Tywin himself. Things were good when Tywin died, someone else fucked it up.

As I've said before here: by this way of thinking, Robert was a genius and a great king, because things only got really bad after he died. If everything you build will fall apart quickly as soon as you die, you haven't built anything worth remembering.

[Castel]

Winterfell is Burning, on 06 June 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

As I've said before here: by this way of thinking, Robert was a genius and a great king, because things only got really bad after he died. If everything you build will fall apart quickly as soon as you die, you haven't built anything worth remembering.

Robert fucked up his kingdom before he died. The cracks were always there. Tywin was building his when an unforeseen event took him. And in fact it would have been fine without someone else fucking it up. The destruction of the Lannisters didn't happen because he left a terrible situation, it happened because Cersei was an idiot.

[COYStars]

Incidentally, I really don't want Aerys + Joanna = Tyrion to be true. I'd hate for Tywin to have had reason to treat Tyrion the way that he did (not that Tyrion would have deserved it in any event). I want it to be that his vanity wanted perfection for his family line, which is how I read the books.  The Aerys + Joanna = Tyrion theory is letting him off very lightly imho...

[David Selig]

Castel, on 06 June 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

Robert fucked up his kingdom before he died. The cracks were always there. Tywin was building his when an unforeseen event took him. And in fact it would have been fine without someone else fucking it up. The destruction of the Lannisters didn't happen because he left a terrible situation, it happened because Cersei was an idiot.

Tywin should've tried teaching Cersei politics and governing. He didn't , so a lot of her screw-ups are partly his fault...

[Castel]

COYStars, on 06 June 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

Incidentally, I really don't want Aerys + Joanna = Tyrion to be true. I'd hate for Tywin to have had reason to treat Tyrion the way that he did (not that Tyrion would have deserved it in any event). I want it to be that his vanity wanted perfection for his family line, which is how I read the books.  The Aerys + Joanna = Tyrion theory is letting him off very lightly imho...

I don't get this mentality. Either Tywin had concrete reason for believing this and he was a douche for letting it affect his relationship with Tyrion. Or he didn't in which case he's doubly a douche. There's no scenario where he isn't a fucking monster. He never had any reason either way

And he's dead, it's not like the reveal is of any import to him.

It seems like gratuitous revenge imo.

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Tywin should've tried teaching Cersei politics and governing. He didn't , so a lot of her screw-ups are partly his fault...

Cersei doesn't fail at politics because she misunderstands it. She fails because she has a huge ego and is paranoid after a series of ridiculously unlikely events and a few decades of being in the shadows has turned her into a mouth breather.

She logically understands how to plot.