161 replies to this topic

[COYStars]

Castel, on 06 June 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

Robert fucked up his kingdom before he died. The cracks were always there. Tywin was building his when an unforeseen event took him. And in fact it would have been fine without someone else fucking it up. The destruction of the Lannisters didn't happen because he left a terrible situation, it happened because Cersei was an idiot.

But whose fault is it that Cersei is an idiot?

It's no coincidence that Jaime is an @rse until such time as he's exposed to the Big Wide World and sees it as it actually is.  Until then, he's a spoilt child just as much as Cersei is.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Castel, on 06 June 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

Robert fucked up his kingdom before he died. The cracks were always there. Tywin was building his when an unforeseen event took him. And in fact it would have been fine without someone else fucking it up. The destruction of the Lannisters didn't happen because he left a terrible situation, it happened because Cersei was an idiot.

Tywin dying eventually wasn't unforeseen, and whether Tywin died one day after or 10 years later Cersei would screw up everything, because Tywin raised her to be an arrogant and spoiled bitch and never thought her about properly ruling. And by the time ot Tywin's death, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HIS MAJOR ALLIES was plotting to have him killed or have his house removed from power- the Martells (indeed, there has been a very interesting topic this week with considerable evidence of Tywin being poisoned by Oberyn), the Tyrells, Varys, Littlefinger, and so on.

[Saer]

The Red Wedding wasn't luck--those specific circumstances were chance, but seizing the opportunity and manipulating it to obtain the best outcome for him and the Lannisters was an example of his ability.
And, seriously, you think being the hand of a realm as diverse as the Seven Kingdoms with a mad-man as king (so basically ruling it, but without the glory) for 20 years could ever be easy? Just because there wasn't a civil war during that time doesn't make it simple. Peaceful and prosperous for 20 years under an increasingly paranoid and sadistic king is a testament to Tywin's skill, not a walk in the park.
He's killed at the height of his power because he was cruel to one man and one woman. Seemingly a tiny weakness... but big enough.

Edited by Saer, 14 June 2012 - 05:12 AM.

[Castel]

Winterfell is Burning, on 06 June 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

Tywin dying eventually wasn't unforeseen, and whether Tywin died one day after or 10 years later Cersei would screw up everything, because Tywin raised her to be an arrogant and spoiled bitch and never thought her about properly ruling. And by the time ot Tywin's death, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HIS MAJOR ALLIES was plotting to have him killed or have his house removed from power- the Martells (indeed, there has been a very interesting topic this week with considerable evidence of Tywin being poisoned by Oberyn), the Tyrells, Varys, Littlefinger, and so on.

The roots of Cersei's problems lie in a situation much greater than Tywin. There's little he can do about the fact that Westeros is the way it is and that she couldn't just ignore it and play the game. Also, Tywin probably never intended for her to rule, he just hadn't gotten her out yet.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Castel, on 14 June 2012 - 12:04 PM, said:

The roots of Cersei's problems lie in a situation much greater than Tywin. There's little he can do about the fact that Westeros is the way it is and that she couldn't just ignore it and play the game. Also, Tywin probably never intended for her to rule, he just hadn't gotten her out yet.

Tywin could have thought Cersei how to rule, he could have sent her to Casterly Rock packing long before, or he could have just accepted Tyrion as his heir. However, like most tyrants with control freak tendencies, he had a problem in accepting the idea that some things just won't go his way- hence his absolute refusal in seeing that Jaime did not wanted Casterly Rock and probably wouldn't a good job if he had it (and before he lost his hand, that's 100% sure).

The result was that he was left without competent heirs, and with Tywin's main mission being to establish a millenia-long dynasty, that was a fatal mistake.

Ironically, the fact that Ned was a good father will be among the main reasons why his house will be fine at the end of the story, despite him being a bad player in the Game of Thrones, while Tywin's house will get close to ruin because he was a bad one, nevermind his wealth and power.

[Castel]

Quote

Tywin could have thought Cersei how to rule, he could have sent her to Casterly Rock packing long before,

What exactly is Cersei missing in terms of education? When has she shown a lack of understanding of the political systems of Westeros? Cersei failed as a ruler because she was paranoid-justifiably- and sociopathic, both inescapable facts of her nature. You can teach someone the mechanical aspects of ruling, but you can't override their personality and make them act in ways unnatural to their character.

Why would he send her back to Casterly Rock then? Her being around grants legitimacy to the regime and prevents any rumors of a split forming which is necessary seeing as the Tyrells are all over the city and present a united front, and if he dies she'd probably come back anyway, except this time the Lannisters might have been locked out.

[corbon]

Saer, on 14 June 2012 - 04:55 AM, said:

And, seriously, you think being the hand of a realm as diverse as the Seven Kingdoms with a mad-man as king (so basically ruling it, but without the glory) for 20 years could ever be easy? Just because there wasn't a civil war during that time doesn't make it simple. Peaceful and prosperous for 20 years under an increasingly paranoid and sadistic king is a testament to Tywin's skill, not a walk in the park.

If you do some research you might find that all was not as Tywin's PR machine would have you believe.

Aerys showed promise in his youth and early reign. He wasn't always 'the mad king'. Arguably it was Tywin's arrogance that enhanced Aery's paranoia and madness.
Aery's inherited a fairly stable kingdom, since there had been no significant war in westeros for over 50 years (2nd Blackfire Rebellion 212AL, aborted by Dunc more or less), apart from a little bit of fighting in the Stepstones and then in Essos (War of the Ninepenny Kings, approx 259AL).

Yet Tywin gradually took over, enough for Ilyn Payne to lose his tongue when heard to say that Tywin was the real ruler of the Seven Kingdoms, and yet after 60+ years of more or less peace, there is an actual Tax Revolt under Tywin's 'stewardship'.
And it is this Tax Revolt that sees Aerys held prisoner while Tywin does nothing for 6 months, and this captivity that sees Aerys' paranoia and madness take a sharp upward direction.

Just remember to consider the source for 'twenty years of peace and prosperity under Tywin's rule'.
Its Tywin's people is it not?

[Castel]

Quote

And it is this Tax Revolt that sees Aerys held prisoner while Tywin

does nothing for 6 months

, and

this captivity

that sees Aerys' paranoia and madness take a sharp upward direction.

Yes indeed. And it was the best decision,

[ed Lannister]

corbon, on 14 June 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

If you do some research you might find that all was not as Tywin's PR machine would have you believe.

Aerys showed promise in his youth and early reign. He wasn't always 'the mad king'. Arguably it was Tywin's arrogance that enhanced Aery's paranoia and madness.
Aery's inherited a fairly stable kingdom, since there had been no significant war in westeros for over 50 years (2nd Blackfire Rebellion 212AL, aborted by Dunc more or less), apart from a little bit of fighting in the Stepstones and then in Essos (War of the Ninepenny Kings, approx 259AL).

Yet Tywin gradually took over, enough for Ilyn Payne to lose his tongue when heard to say that Tywin was the real ruler of the Seven Kingdoms, and yet after 60+ years of more or less peace, there is an actual Tax Revolt under Tywin's 'stewardship'.
And it is this Tax Revolt that sees Aerys held prisoner while Tywin does nothing for 6 months, and this captivity that sees Aerys' paranoia and madness take a sharp upward direction.

Just remember to consider the source for 'twenty years of peace and prosperity under Tywin's rule'.
Its Tywin's people is it not?

Ned states aery's left  a treasury full of gold much due to tywins sklills that event lords japed that he did shit gold and a talent for finding money,stannis recollects how marvelous tywin discharged his duties while witnessing him at the court,cat,kevan,genna,tyrion,cersei give a better view of tywin since they were  closer to him especiall kevan who was his close confidants + even the commonfolk who lived when the mad king reigned talked of when the inn's were full and business was booming from white harbor,oldtown,gulltown,lannisport  to KL  all of which point that the peace and prosperity were facts not just heresay

the tax revolt was due to aerys refusing to grant a new charter to duskendale and better tax incentives not tywins doing and has never been stated that he was the cause of it....even after aerys incompetency in handling the situation it fell upon tywin to rescue aerys and with him effectively commanding the royal force and  laying a siege of the town he did something that facilitated barristan to rescue aerys and aerys became insanely more paranoid  which is  attributed to being locked up in dungeon coupled with varys being introduced in the picture as a power player he was bound to bring more friction between aerys and tywin. ned,tyrion,jaime,arianne,cersei,theon,edmure are just examples of how imprisonment in a dungeon breaks the resolve of any man

just to stress tywin's approach in handling a request of such magnitude business wise  you can recollect he agreed to paxter redwyne request to zero taxes for thirty years on  their best vintage wine from the abhor in a small council meeting under king joffrey if you imply tywin was the cause of that that revolt.

[Darth Pipes]

The one area where I think Tywin is overrated is as a military commander.  He lost every time he faced Robb Stark and even Edmure kicked his ass.  Tywin doesn't seem to win battles unless he has overhwhelming numbers at his disposal.

[Bran the Deciduous]

Darth Pipes, on 15 June 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

The one area where I think Tywin is overrated is as a military commander.  He lost every time he faced Robb Stark and even Edmure kicked his ass.  Tywin doesn't seem to win battles unless he has overhwhelming numbers at his disposal.

Tywin never lost a battle to Robb. They never faced each other on the field. Tywin's performance at the Green Fork was competent. Roose's attempt to surprise him failed although Tywin's own strategy for inflicting a truly crippling defeat also failed. Moreover, Roose had the majority of Robb's army and they have very little affect in the rest of the war (Harrenhal etc) because of their defeat when Roose was clearly trying a daring strategy to win.

The two lannister defeats were due to less experienced commanders, Jaime and Ser Stafford. I agree some of the blame for the disaster at the Whispering Wood is Tywin's for being fooled into thinking he was facing the whole Stark army. But most of the responsibility belongs to Jaime. It was pretty clear he was not as aware and well prepared as he should have been.

Lastly Tywin couldn't really have known Cat would have the sense to give Lord Frey everything he ever wanted and moreover that Frey would prove dippy enough to accept.

Even if Tywin lost to Edmure this wasn't a defeat as such. His army was still in being, he wasn't routed or put to flight, Edmure seems to have taken no prisoners, he just couldn't cross the river that day due to heavy resistance.

Tywin fought two battles, the Green Fork and Blackwater and he won them both. I think he is pretty good. He also successfully orchestrated the defeat of the Tully's early on by tricking Edmure into dispersing his bannermen (although Jaime won the actual battle as I recall).

Overall I think he is the best battlefield commander and military strategist in the war of the five kings. Tywin wins his battles against older experienced commanders, Roose and Stannis, while Robb was victorious against generals who were presented as flawed at best (Jaime) and downright useless at worst (Ser Stafford).

If you think about it both Tywin and Robb make big mistakes in their overall strategy. Robb takes himself out of the equation by going west while Tywin holds the centre ground. Tywin then scraps his plan and does go west but is saved by Edmure's unexpected heroism and competence which in part owes to Robb's own failure to communicate his plans.

No one is presented as a genius but Tywin is definitely among the best I think.

Edited by Procopius, 15 June 2012 - 02:50 PM.

[The Red Hand]

I agree Procopius. Besides, Tywin wasn't there at the fight that Edmund won so he's still undefeated in the field.

[Castel]

Quote

Tywin never lost a battle to Robb. They never faced each other on the field. Tywin's performance at the Green Fork was competent. Roose's attempt to surprise him failed although Tywin's own strategy for inflicting a truly crippling defeat also failed. Moreover, Roose had the majority of Robb's army and they have very little affect in the rest of the war (Harrenhal etc) because of their defeat when Roose was clearly trying a daring strategy to win.

It's fascinating to me that people can buy the northmen's bullshit "The Young Wolf has never lost a battle" when the situation is pretty much the same with Tywin. But of course, when Jaime or Stefford lose it's on Tywin, when Edmure and Roose lose, there was something that made it someone else's fault,even if it determined Robb's strategy from then on.

[Shoemaker]

I don't think Tywin's overrated, but just like any characters you compound a list of stupid/flaws. Here is some points which could feature on such a list.

1. He is blind to his children (Tyrion's potential, Jaime and Cersei's incestuous relationship, Cersei's need of his recognition... Everything boiling down to his not, well not
    first grade parenting)
2. He is worse at matchmaking for his children than Rickard Stark (the thing that really turned the Lannisters luck was Robert's Rebellion. And even in the wake of the
    rebellion House Lannister failed to tie any of the previous pro Targ Great Houses (Tyrell and Martell) to House Lannister. In fact it was Tyrion, with his scheme to marry
    Myrcella to House Martell, who took the first step to assimilate these two great houses into the new dynasty. Of course, you can see the minus with choosing House
    Martell for this)
3. Tysha (see point 1+a bit of a overkill, which Tywin seems to have penchant for) and  Shae.
4. Insulting House Martell when the ruling princess of Dorne travelled to Casterlys Rock to marry off one or both of her two still unmarried children (Elia and Oberyn) to his
    children. (tied to point 2. You had think that if you wanted Cersei married to the prince you had want to take one of the prince's other marriage prospects unavailable)
5. Stubbornly refusing to face up to the reality that Jaime doesn't want to be the next heir to Casterly Rock (and not getting himself another one... Still stupid in correlation
    of point 1 about Tyrion's potential).
6. His hypocrisy-

And these things about Tywin used to annoy the hell out off me, because when they sprung Shae on me I was "Noooo, they cannot do this. They are ruining his character). But I have actually come to like them about him, for a flawed villain is actually so much better.

*1 I didn't include his many war atrocious, because they have been discussed here and on other threads.

[Daenerys is my queen]

I never understood why people liked Tywin so much.

[Gurkhal]

Darth Pipes, on 15 June 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

The one area where I think Tywin is overrated is as a military commander.  He lost every time he faced Robb Stark and even Edmure kicked his ass.  Tywin doesn't seem to win battles unless he has overhwhelming numbers at his disposal.

Robb never defeated Tywin a single time for the simple reason that they never faced each other. Most of what Tywin did makes perfect military sense to me and Edmure never "kicked his ass", but repelled Tywin's attacks which are completely different. The Lannister army remain intact after the Battle of the Fords and could withdraw to fight a victorious battle against Stannis a short time later.

[Batman]

TheCheesecakeMassacre, on 18 March 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

1) He's really rich- Anyone could be with the rich mines of the Westerlands.
2) Gave Westeros decades of peace as King's Hand- Only because under normal circumstances, major rebellions wouldn't happen as they would be crushed alone. It took the extraordinary events of Lyanna's kidnapping and the murder of many nobles to start a serious rebellion with many rebels and wasn't due to an incompetent Hand.
3) Destroyed the Reyne's and Tarbeck's- One house vs all of the Westerlands.
4) Sacked King's Landing- With the loyalists defeated or at Storm's End vs the full power of the West.
5) Failed to secure the Tyrell's support during the War of the 5 Kings, Renly would have won the war were it not for Stannis having magic.
6) Defeated Stannis on the Blackwater- Almost lured into a trap by the Northern alliance which would have seen the city fall. If he had not met up with a huge Tyrell force won over by Littlefinger then the city may very well have fallen.
7) Has Robb Stark and many Northern commanders killed- If Robb had not been an idiot and broken his vows then the Wedding would have gone as planned, not down to Tywin's planning.

1 - Not anyone, Tytos could not do it, Cersei would have blown through the Lannisters fortune if she lived long enough and King Robert might have made a go of it. It does not take a finanical genius, but he did well to restore the vaults after his fathers reign.

2 - The general feeling is that Tywin could have ended the rebellion before things got to out of hand. The Battle of the Bells is what most people point to and while that may or may not have ended the rebellion it would have taken one of the greatest generals away from the rebel side.

3 - The Boltons are the Starks second most powerful bannermen and have rebelled and challenged Stark authority for centuries. The Yronwoods are the most powerful bannermen of the Martells and have contested their rule. Both House have been around for thousands of years. Tywin destroyed his first AND second most powerful bannermen when he was barely a man. Its not as easy as people think or the Starks and Martells would have done it.

4 - Not a great achievement, in his mind just doing what needed to be done to secure his power.

5 - This is a weakness. Tywin has always seemed apathetic in making alliances with other Great Houses. He planned to form an alliance with the Tully's but Cersei and Jaime screwed that up. Jon Arryn at least knew the benefit in a coalition.

6 - Tywin is a good commander, not a great one.

7 - Tywin took advantage of a mistake made by an opponent. What else would you have had him do?

[the Scorpion Knight]

Batman, on 15 October 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:

1 - Not anyone, Tytos could not do it, Cersei would have blown through the Lannisters fortune if she lived long enough and King Robert might have made a go of it. It does not take a finanical genius, but he did well to restore the vaults after his fathers reign.

2 - The general feeling is that Tywin could have ended the rebellion before things got to out of hand. The Battle of the Bells is what most people point to and while that may or may not have ended the rebellion it would have taken one of the greatest generals away from the rebel side.

3 - The Boltons are the Starks second most powerful bannermen and have rebelled and challenged Stark authority for centuries. The Yronwoods are the most powerful bannermen of the Martells and have contested their rule. Both House have been around for thousands of years. Tywin destroyed his first AND second most powerful bannermen when he was barely a man. Its not as easy as people think or the Starks and Martells would have done it.

4 - Not a great achievement, in his mind just doing what needed to be done to secure his power.

5 - This is a weakness. Tywin has always seemed apathetic in making alliances with other Great Houses. He planned to form an alliance with the Tully's but Cersei and Jaime screwed that up. Jon Arryn at least knew the benefit in a coalition.

6 - Tywin is a good commander, not a great one.

7 - Tywin took advantage of a mistake made by an opponent. What else would you have had him do?

• you have too keep im mind Tyrtos valued human lives and peace more goldand what other people thought of him
  
• he could even started defusing the aerys II bomb while he was hand
  
• Doran turned the no into one of his stounchest allies in dorne WITHOUT the use of a single sword. which is way more impressive
  
• It was an idioticy. the city surrended
  
• Agree
  
• tywin was lucky. his major flaw was his short sightestness and his ego
  
• If I were tywin? Accept the first peace agreeement that comes to me. the less people I have to fight the better and If I gain an ally that the way better

[Anwar]

Tytos didn't really damage the finances of House Lannister, it was their reputation and standing as a Great House he affected. Tywin didn't really have to do anything to fix their treasury levels except stop giving out money.

[ed Lannister]

Anwar, on 15 October 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

Tytos didn't really damage the finances of House Lannister, it was their reputation and standing as a Great House he affected. Tywin didn't really have to do anything to fix their treasury levels except stop giving out money.

“ "Tywin seems a hard man to you, but he's no harder than he's had to be. Our own father was gentle and amiable, but so weak his bannermen mocked him in their cups. Some saw fit to defy him openly. Other lords borrowed his gold and never troubled to repay it. At court they japed of toothless lions. Even his own mistress stole from him. A woman scarcely one step above a whore, and she helped herself to my mother's jewels! It fell to Tywin to restore House Lannister to its proper place. Just as it fell to him to rule this realm, when he was no more than twenty. He bore that heavy burden for twenty years and all it earned him was a mad king's envy. Instead of the honor he deserved, he was made to suffer slights beyond count, yet he gave the Seven Kingdoms peace, plenty and justice. He is a just man." ^[4] ”
-Kevan Lannister in AFFC

a proper glimpse of the lannister position under tytos reign as lord paramount of the westerlands