161 replies to this topic

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

He was pretty good, though he's no Littlefinger.

[Patchface12]

lomiller, on 18 March 2012 - 09:44 PM, said:

I forget where he says it but Tywin has a conversation where he explains you don't wound enemies and then leave them alive, but not only does he make this error himself he does it in about as bit a way as possible.  Not only does he wound both the Starks and Targaryens and fails to finish them off, the ones he leaves alive are the most dangerous of all.

Based on that I'd say he's overrated.

Because he obviously knew Bran, Rickon, and Arya were alive and where Sansa went after the Joffrey's wedding, and did nothing about it.

And he had no seat on small council when Viserys was still alive and news of Dany is obscure and fleeting, other than she lost the Dothraki and the ones remaining want her dead.

[butterbumps!]

TheCheesecakeMassacre, on 18 March 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

7) Has Robb Stark and many Northern commanders killed- If Robb had not been an idiot and broken his vows then the Wedding would have gone as planned, not down to Tywin's planning.
Short of it is- All of Tywin's successes have been down to either his massive resources or luck.

Some of Arya's chapters at Harrenhall imply that Tywin and Roose were planning to assassinate Robb before Jeyne came into the picture (Roose was always writing letters to someone).   I don't like the outcome of the Red Wedding, but I don't think it was luck on Tywin's part, so much as his planning.   "Jeyne-Gate" just offered an opportunity and excuse for the assassination to occur.

I agree with the posters who point out that Tywin's character shows us how morally difficult it is to be an effective ruler/ commander.   I don't think that he's overrated in terms of ability, but I'd say I think his prowess is compromised by his inability to put the interests of the realm over the interests of his House.   For example, he left the position of Hand under Aerys in retribution for Aerys' appointing Jaime to the Kingsguard.  So, because of the conflict of interest (and perceived slight) between the realm and his House, he removed himself from office, thereby leaving the realm to Aerys and a succession of completely disastrous Hands.  I wonder if things would have gone a lot differently if he'd just swallowed this and continued as Hand.

So I think he's unquestionably competent and effective, but I suppose I question his ultimate ability to serve the realm based on his inability to put the needs of the kingdom over the interest of his House.

Edited by butterbumps!, 18 March 2012 - 10:48 PM.

[lomiller]

Patchface12, on 18 March 2012 - 10:35 PM, said:

Because he obviously knew Bran, Rickon, and Arya were alive and where Sansa went after the Joffrey's wedding, and did nothing about it.

And he had no seat on small council when Viserys was still alive and news of Dany is obscure and fleeting, other than she lost the Dothraki and the ones remaining want her dead.

He still failed at his own most basic rule.  Besides, if he was as good as he thought he would have known Arya, Bran and Rickon hadn't died and would have had Dany killed on his own without standing back to see if Robert would do it.

[Lord of Cheese]

Tywin is above average in intelligence, i'll give him that.

The Lannisters have their gold mines which is a pretty big deal in generating wealth. Because he was sensible he was able to restore his house riches after some time. His wealth gives him incredible bargaining power with other houses and so he can command the loyalty of many houses and some important ones too. This sets the foundation for him to be so effective. He can get things done and nobody would dare turn against him because of his brutal response. Yes its clever, but its his wealth and position that affords this.

If you took someone who was just as smart as Tywin but did not give him any gold mines do you think that guy would rise up and amount to anything? Most likely not.

[Independent George]

You know that incompetent boob of a boss you once had? The one whom you theorized is a shaved ape in a suit? Make that ape a pyromaniac who can burn you to death at will, and that's Aerys.

Tywin lived with that for twenty years, and the Kingdom prospered.

No, he's not overrated.

[Lord Damian]

Tywin, like most overly  successful commanders, eventually underestimate someone they should have defeated (Napoleon vs Wellington at Waterloo, Lee vs Meade at Gettysburg, Rommel vs Montgomery at Kaserine). Tywin makes this mistake vs Robb when the Northern army decended from the Neck in AGoT.  There is no way, even after Walder Frey joined them that they should have lost to Robb. Tywin plays be no rules and no restraints. He has done anything and everything to win and has broken customs and any and all chivalry that applies in Westeros society. I say that he is to be feared because of two things,
1- in any world, money talks and he has the gold, period. he could pay your own brother with the right price to stab you in the back and not lose a wink of sleep over it.
2- He has ordered infant's heads smashed against walls to benefit him and his house. There is nothing he would not do if he could.
This is an evil person.

Edited by Lord Damian, 19 March 2012 - 12:04 AM.

[Fire Eater]

LuisDantas, on 18 March 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

Tywin was both a very capable (if misguided and in some respects foolish) man and an over-rated one.

His most remarkable quality is his unbreakable resolve.  In many ways, that is also his fatal flaw.  He over-reacted to his father's perceived flaws and became somewhat of a proto-Joffrey from a very early age.  It got impressive results, but also made him the freakish, insufferable person that he was.

I would feel sorry for him if his hands held a little less blood and misery.

He never realized that not all of his father's characteristics were weaknesses some were strengths, and Tywin ends up turning some of those strengths into weaknesses, such as kindness and being a father, especially the latter. The consequences of it resulted in one of his children, Jaime, no longer caring about where his house was headed; another, Tyrion, is actively trying to bring his house down and the only child working to uphold House Lannister, Cersei, is running it into the ground.  The results his actions got him in the War of the Five Kings and Robert's Rebellion are now going come back to haunt his family with the enemies he made in Dorne, the North and the Riverlands.

Tywin was an excellent general, lord and Hand of the King, but his actions ended up undoing all he did to further his house due to his short-term thinking.

Edited by Fire Eater, 25 March 2012 - 08:33 PM.

[ByYourGrace]

Lord Damian, on 19 March 2012 - 12:03 AM, said:

2- He has ordered infant's heads smashed against walls to benefit him and his house. There is nothing he would not do if he could.
This is an evil person.

did he explicitly order gregor to dash aegon's head on the wall? judging from his distaste at the way the rhaenys situation was executed, he probably would have preferred another pillow smothering incident.

anywho, like every other character, tywin has fans and anti-fans. he is definitely capable, but perception is just as important. tywin has an aura of authority and downright looks like a king. i'm not sure that you can say he completely lucked out all the time since he seems to have planned all of these things well in advance. by the same token, i would have said that robb stark also lucked out immensely during the war of the five kings with the quick marriage and grey wind finding a goat trail that could accommodate several thousand horsemen past a crucial mountain pass guarded for thousands of years. bear in mind this is coming from somebody who drew robb stark as their profile...

Edited by ByYourGrace, 19 March 2012 - 01:04 AM.

[Bear Grylls of Skagos]

He ruled the seven kingdoms and the treasury was flowing with Gold under Aerys even though Aerys was fucking mad. The seven kingdoms prospered and the small folk loved Tywin when he was a hand(Cersei says so). He restored his house to its former wealth after YEARS of misrule.

[Lord of Cheese]

The Valonquar., on 19 March 2012 - 01:28 AM, said:

He ruled the seven kingdoms and the treasury was flowing with Gold under Aerys even though Aerys was fucking mad. The seven kingdoms prospered and the small folk loved Tywin when he was a hand(Cersei says so). He restored his house to its former wealth after YEARS of misrule.

As long as Aerys' madness was not the expensive sort of madness he should have been able to manage the treasury. Id have liked to see him manage the treasury during Robert's rule.

He is better than most yes, but does this make him extraordinary? Not too sure.

[Bear Grylls of Skagos]

Lord of Cheese, on 19 March 2012 - 01:55 AM, said:

As long as Aerys' madness was not the expensive sort of madness he should have been able to manage the treasury. Id have liked to see him manage the treasury during Robert's rule.

He is better than most yes, but does this make him extraordinary? Not too sure.

Aerys' madness was not the expensive sort? He was addicted to pyromancers. You have no reason to believe that he wouldn't have done good with Robert too.


As for "being lucky" with gold, in our world, Sierra Leone has diamonds,most of the middle eastern countries have oil ,yet where do they stand?Even if you don't want to compare them with the medieval world, Medieval India was a country rich in natural resources and the North Indian gangetic plains are probably the most fertile land in Asia. Yet India was never the power it could have been due to incompetent  rulers.  Indian Kings were much like the Westerosi lords,incompetent and proud.They too thought that honour is more important than their jobs.
Each of the seven kingdoms have something to build upon and to get rich. The North, The vale and the Stormlands can easily estabhlish business with the free cities but do they do it? No, their honour is more important.


My point:- It's not as easy as you think or say it is. Just being rich in natural resources doesn;t guarantee you a rich country. A good strong ruler is a must for any country which has to prosper.

[just an Other]

Tywin was an excellent politician but a mediocre general. I don't get why people have a problem with that. They are different skillsets. The difference between his way of thinking and Robb's is more than apparent in AGOT through Tyrion's and Cat's POVs. Tywin was thinking how to break Robb's resolve, while Robb was thinking how to do damage.

[guad]

In matter of reputation in Westeros, I don't think Tywin is overrated, he is a capable ruler and administrator, and an okish General (ok-ish, because, well, a 16 year old boy from the North outsmarted him.)

In matter of reputation in fandom, he is very overrated. Personally I don't get how a guy who orders murder of kids and gangrape gets to be called awesome and badass, etc.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Am I the only one realizing the less sense tywins action make the more you think about it
- dead children (not neccesary theres the wall, the kingsguards)
- his modus operati a.k.a. the ranes of castamere

[Bear Grylls of Skagos]

the Scorpion Knight, on 20 March 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

Am I the only one realizing the less sense tywins action make the more you think about it
- dead children (not neccesary theres the wall, the kingsguards)
- his modus operati a.k.a. the ranes of castamere

Agreed on the first one. Quite stupid in fact,as it estranged his new allies and destroyed any small chance reconcilling with the old one.He did it just because Aerys rejected Cersei. He was quite an emotional fool if you think about it.

Second one was damn necessary,it was a message he was giving to his other bannermen and westeros in general,"Don't fuck with the Lannisters".Also he didn't leave anyone who revenge the death of the lords who turned their cloaks.

[voodooqueen126]

Fire Eater, on 19 March 2012 - 12:22 AM, said:

He never realized that not all of his father's characteristics were weaknesses some were strengths, and Tywin ends up turning some of those strengths into weaknesses, such as kindness and being a father, especially the latter. The consequences of it resulted in one of his children, Jaime, no longer caring about where his house was headed; another, Tyrion, is actively trying to bring his house down and the only child working to uphold House Lannister, Cersei, is running it into the ground.  

I would say the fact that Cersei is running the House into the ground can be attributed to Tywin's influence on her.
obviously he was such a terrible parent that for his daughter and son their soul source of comfort was an incestous relationship with each other.
Generally speaking crappy parenting is a way to help a child develop a borderline personality disorder anyway.
he presumably allowed Cersei to be spoiled, (rather like the children in Anne Bronte's "Agnes Grey") which meant that Cersei's education was stunted, hence her unawareness that failing to pay back the iron bank would have ugly consequences. which was something even Jon Snow knew.
he imbued Cersei with such excessive pride, that she was unable to put up with Robert's appaling behaviour, like every other Westerosi woman would.
This caused her to bare her brother's, rather than her king's children.
This  caused the war of the five kings.
However since Tywin fixed this problem (albeit in the process irrevocably turning the North against him), the incest isn't a big factor, but Cersei's incompetence in AFFC is.
I think the reason Cersei is running House Lannister into the ground can largely be attributed to Tywin's parenting style, causing her to develop a personality disorder, which causes her to make poor decision.

[The Last Direwolf]

TheCheesecakeMassacre, on 18 March 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

3) Destroyed the Reyne's and Tarbeck's- One house vs all of the Westerlands.

The whole point of mentioning his destruction of the Reynes and Tarbecks was to shock - it was very extreme to slaughter and entire House of bannermen just because they were a little unruly. Did the Starks do this to the Boltons? No. It was too extreme. This shows that Tywin is not afraid to slaughter people to teach the realm a lesson.

The rest of the stuff you've mentioned shows just how completely ruthless Tywin is. He will do anything to reach his goal and improve his House. When he took over from Tytos, the Lannisters were piteous - mocked and poor and weak. He made them the strongest, most feared House in the realm.

[Cinder Stark Targaryn]

butterbumps!, on 18 March 2012 - 10:45 PM, said:

Some of Arya's chapters at Harrenhall imply that Tywin and Roose were planning to assassinate Robb before Jeyne came into the picture (Roose was always writing letters to someone).   I don't like the outcome of the Red Wedding, but I don't think it was luck on Tywin's part, so much as his planning.   "Jeyne-Gate" just offered an opportunity and excuse for the assassination to occur.

I agree with the posters who point out that Tywin's character shows us how morally difficult it is to be an effective ruler/ commander.   I don't think that he's overrated in terms of ability, but I'd say I think his prowess is compromised by his inability to put the interests of the realm over the interests of his House.   For example, he left the position of Hand under Aerys in retribution for Aerys' appointing Jaime to the Kingsguard.  So, because of the conflict of interest (and perceived slight) between the realm and his House, he removed himself from office, thereby leaving the realm to Aerys and a succession of completely disastrous Hands.  I wonder if things would have gone a lot differently if he'd just swallowed this and continued as Hand.

So I think he's unquestionably competent and effective, but I suppose I question his ultimate ability to serve the realm based on his inability to put the needs of the kingdom over the interest of his House.

I agree with you about the red wedding, he was planning that for awhile but Tywin's house was a mess!!! He didn't see the whole jaime/cersi twincest that was going on under his nose. He failed to get Jaime to quite the KG, he didn't even see that cersi and the sexing was the reason he joined!! He couldn't see beyond tyrions dwarfism, to see his other qualities. And most of all, he allowed cersi to rule through her sons!!! Crazy cersi, really!!! Tywin could put his house in order!!! Sounds over rated to me!!!

[Unreliable Sellsword]

He was a political genius and all of his plans worked out in the end somehow to his favour. The only thing he was bad at was in his role as a father.
Sadly he has no POV's, so we will never know if if he actually tried to control his children (real control, not like "You do what I say") and heavily failed in that (otherwise, he would have to somehow overlook his mad daughter and his suspicious dwarf son properly at least) or if he just was too ignorant to notice Cersei is mad, Tyrion is selfish and Jaime doesn't care (and isn't too smart)