161 replies to this topic

[the Scorpion Knight]

voodooqueen126, on 20 March 2012 - 11:18 AM, said:

I would say the fact that Cersei is running the House into the ground can be attributed to Tywin's influence on her.
obviously he was such a terrible parent that for his daughter and son their soul source of comfort was an incestous relationship with each other.
Generally speaking crappy parenting is a way to help a child develop a borderline personality disorder anyway.
he presumably allowed Cersei to be spoiled, (rather like the children in Anne Bronte's "Agnes Grey") which meant that Cersei's education was stunted, hence her unawareness that failing to pay back the iron bank would have ugly consequences. which was something even Jon Snow knew.
he imbued Cersei with such excessive pride, that she was unable to put up with Robert's appaling behaviour, like every other Westerosi woman would.
This caused her to bare her brother's, rather than her king's children.
This  caused the war of the five kings.
However since Tywin fixed this problem (albeit in the process irrevocably turning the North against him), the incest isn't a big factor, but Cersei's incompetence in AFFC is.
I think the reason Cersei is running House Lannister into the ground can largely be attributed to Tywin's parenting style, causing her to develop a personality disorder, which causes her to make poor decision.

you also have to keep in mind that the boys had at least their uncles(who are decent persons imho) as rolemodel

[the Scorpion Knight]

The Last Direwolf, on 20 March 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

The whole point of mentioning his destruction of the Reynes and Tarbecks was to shock - it was very extreme to slaughter and entire House of bannermen just because they were a little unruly. Did the Starks do this to the Boltons? No. It was too extreme. This shows that Tywin is not afraid to slaughter people to teach the realm a lesson.

The rest of the stuff you've mentioned shows just how completely ruthless Tywin is. He will do anything to reach his goal and improve his House. When he took over from Tytos, the Lannisters were piteous - mocked and poor and weak. He made them the strongest, most feared House in the realm.

it could have also backfired completly

[Ned's Epic Beard]

He was evil son of a bi**h who died in a privy. good riddance!

[the Scorpion Knight]

Saad, on 20 March 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

He was evil son of a bi**h who died in a privy. good riddance!

the more seriously he want to be taken he more a joke he becomes (to me )

[Sid2]

He never said it in the books that I can remember, but the GoT series on HBO had a scene with Tywin and Jaime where his thoughts on what was important came through.  We'll all be dead but the house lives on, and the house and how people view it is what's important.  It seems to follow with how he acted politically in the books, though it was never explicitly said.  His work was to make alliances and wipe out enemies, and he did so.

Yet his children are raised so poorly that he seems an utter failure to me.  His eldest two were either aloof or spoiled and having sex with each other.  His youngest had the wit and cunning (like Lann the Clever) to keep the house strong, but was ignored/hated/chastised for a physical deformity which ultimately led to taking his own father's life.
To truly achieve what he wanted for his house and name, work had to be done in the present but also recognizing faults and virtues of his children and raising them accordingly was required for it to continue in the future.  What's currently happening is a good indication of how successful he was at achieving his goals.

[Maroucia]

Tywin Lannister was a pragmatic man who truly believed that the end justifies the means. What was his goal? Getting his family on the top of Westeros’s houses hierarchy, which is exactly what most families in this world are trying to achieve.
As long as Tywin was alive, the Lannisters were indeed the most powerful family in Wersteros, their downfall only started after his death with crazy/drunk/Cercei taking power. I don’t see how anyone can say he was overrated, since he was able to achieve what every Houses were hoping to do.
He did fell as a father, but in that area I don’t think anyone ever overrated him, it was no secret that he was not a really good father.

[the Scorpion Knight]

Maroucia, on 20 March 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

Tywin Lannister was a pragmatic man who truly believed that the end justifies the means. What was his goal? Getting his family on the top of Westeros’s houses hierarchy, which is exactly what most families in this world are trying to achieve.
As long as Tywin was alive, the Lannisters were indeed the most powerful family in Wersteros, their downfall only started after his death with crazy/drunk/Cercei taking power. I don’t see how anyone can say he was overrated, since he was able to achieve what every Houses were hoping to do.
He did fell as a father, but in that area I don’t think anyone ever overrated him, it was no secret that he was not a really good father.

to establish a dynasty your work has to be carried over to the next one. and his children demolish his work.

[Lady of Long Lake]

Ojji, on 18 March 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

This post makes no sense to me.

edit: Comparing Tywin Lannister for a thug is absurd, btw.

Gregor Clegane is the biggest thug in Westeros and he follows Tywin's orders. That makes Tywin a thug too.

I don't think he's overrated btw. He's earned his reputation as a BAMF.

[Red Raven]

Sid2 took the words out of my mouth.

I would add that he not only failed his children he failed his grandchildren as well.  By the time he sent Tyrion to try to manage Joffrey (and not without resistence from Cersei) it was too late.  Joffrey was already a spoiled sociopath who would never be fit to be a proper king and destined to be an incompetent despot.

By failing his children and grandchildren he helped wreck the kingdom.

[ServantOnIce]

TheCheesecakeMassacre, on 18 March 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

So I was re-reading AFFC last night and had a thought, what makes Tywin so great?

1) He's really rich- Anyone could be with the rich mines of the Westerlands.
2) Gave Westeros decades of peace as King's Hand- Only because under normal circumstances, major rebellions wouldn't happen as they would be crushed alone. It took the extraordinary events of Lyanna's kidnapping and the murder of many nobles to start a serious rebellion with many rebels and wasn't due to an incompetent Hand.
3) Destroyed the Reyne's and Tarbeck's- One house vs all of the Westerlands.
4) Sacked King's Landing- With the loyalists defeated or at Storm's End vs the full power of the West.
5) Failed to secure the Tyrell's support during the War of the 5 Kings, Renly would have won the war were it not for Stannis having magic.
6) Defeated Stannis on the Blackwater- Almost lured into a trap by the Northern alliance which would have seen the city fall. If he had not met up with a huge Tyrell force won over by Littlefinger then the city may very well have fallen.
7) Has Robb Stark and many Northern commanders killed- If Robb had not been an idiot and broken his vows then the Wedding would have gone as planned, not down to Tywin's planning.

Short of it is- All of Tywin's successes have been down to either his massive resources or luck.

Is this a satire response to the most recent Dany bashing thread?

[Dark Rider]

TheCheesecakeMassacre, on 18 March 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

So I was re-reading AFFC last night and had a thought, what makes Tywin so great?

1) He's really rich- Anyone could be with the rich mines of the Westerlands.
2) Gave Westeros decades of peace as King's Hand- Only because under normal circumstances, major rebellions wouldn't happen as they would be crushed alone. It took the extraordinary events of Lyanna's kidnapping and the murder of many nobles to start a serious rebellion with many rebels and wasn't due to an incompetent Hand.
3) Destroyed the Reyne's and Tarbeck's- One house vs all of the Westerlands.
4) Sacked King's Landing- With the loyalists defeated or at Storm's End vs the full power of the West.
5) Failed to secure the Tyrell's support during the War of the 5 Kings, Renly would have won the war were it not for Stannis having magic.
6) Defeated Stannis on the Blackwater- Almost lured into a trap by the Northern alliance which would have seen the city fall. If he had not met up with a huge Tyrell force won over by Littlefinger then the city may very well have fallen.
7) Has Robb Stark and many Northern commanders killed- If Robb had not been an idiot and broken his vows then the Wedding would have gone as planned, not down to Tywin's planning.

Short of it is- All of Tywin's successes have been down to either his massive resources or luck.

I'd say he's "competent" and has developed an executive style of administration, but he definitely has benefited from his massive resources and in having enough intelligence to exploit every opportunity that has been presented to him.

1)  True he is rich, but has been pointed out House Lannister was poorly administered under his Father and so again he was "competent" enough to improve the mining of gold and to better control the price of gold.  

2)   I don't see much he did while Hand to really improve the realm either.  The King's Road was built well before Lord Tywin was born and I don't recall hearing of any infrastructure built under Tywin to improve the flow of commerce or increase tax revenue.  I believe it is said that the Mad King's vaults were filled with gold when Robert came to power, but whether that was due to the King's Hand or simply the consequences of trends in the market increasing tax revenue we just don't know.  I am a firm believer that government can only due three things to impact the economy and that is build infrastructure, improve the regulation, and set a favorable tax climate.  However, we know that while Hand there was at least one tax revolt that almost cost the Mad King his life. So Lord Tywin might not have had that great of a tax policy or perhaps had one that favored others too heavily.  In fact, long before the Mad King killed the Starks and other Lords the North appeared to be forming alliances to a unification and perhaps military purpose. Maybe the Mad King wasn't as paranoid as we've been lead to believe?

3)  The Westerlands could have overthrown the Lannisters if Tywin had not acted in a competent matter.  However, just because Tywin's dad was incompetent doesn't make Tywin some great leader for simply exercising common sense and sound judgment. There wasn't much of a diplomatic or military talent required to put down Reynes and Tarbecks.

4)  Lord Tywin gambled and the gamble paid off with the Sack of King's Landing.  The Mad King could have easily listened to Varys and prevented his entry into King's Landing, which would have given the Lannister's far less political pull with the victors when all they could do is lay seige to King's Landing waiting for the Northern Alliance that took just a few days to get down there anyways.  Lord Twyin definitely got lucky there.

5)  Lord Tywin really had no cards to play with the Tyrells.  The Tyrells are well off financially and I suppose he could have sought to strengthen their trade, but the real pull in this world seems to be marriage between the great houses and the Tyrells have all boys and just one girl.  Lord Tywin has one son sworn to the King's Guard, one daughter married to the King, and his only other son is a dwarf the Tyrells are never going to marry their only remaining daughter to.  A Tyrell isn't going to marry their only daughter who happens to be beautiful to a lesser lord from the Westerlands so Lord Tywin is kind of screwed there.  It was Robert's choice while he was alive as to who Joffrey would wed.  By the time Robert is dead Renly is riding off with Ser Loras already with Highgarden secured through marriage contract.

6)  Lord Tywin is constantly outmaneuvered by Robb on the battlefield and with Stannis and Renly forming seperate forces against him in the South it was a SERIOUS oversight not to insure that Ned Stark would remain unharmed as a hostage.  He loses his most important bargaining chip and I'm sure he believed that as a "woman" Cersei would be an inept ruler so why on earth he doesn't send his Brother Lord Kevan straight for King's Landing at the time Robert dies is beyond me.  If you want the Throne for your family you should probably start things off by insuring that someone can properly seat it.

7)  Without Robb's youthfull indiscretion Lord Tywin would have been defeated especially had Stannis not used "magic" to kill Renly.  He was in such an incredibly weak position and really was just sheer luck things unfolded the way they did.  I'll give him credit for being able to take advantage of the situation and reacting quickly to changes though, but that doesn't make him a genius.

So, I agree with the OP Lord Tywin is HIGHLY overrated.  He's just a man who puts on his pants one leg at a time and eventually gets caught with those pants down due to a failure to recognize Tyrion as having intelligence far beyond that of "low cunning."

Edited by Dark Rider, 20 March 2012 - 09:09 PM.

[corbon]

Lord Damian, on 19 March 2012 - 12:03 AM, said:

Tywin, like most overly  successful commanders, eventually underestimate someone they should have defeated (Napoleon vs Wellington at Waterloo, Lee vs Meade at Gettysburg, Rommel vs Montgomery at Kaserine). Tywin makes this mistake vs Robb when the Northern army decended from the Neck in AGoT.

Except that Tywin didn't 'eventually' underestimate someone, he continually underestimated everyone, militarily. He was never a particularly successful commander.

Look at his known history, militarily:
Tarbecks and Reynes - good performance but with overwhelmingly superior resources and no clues as to strategy, tactics or anything other than final results. It is possible, for example, that his losses were 10x those of the Reynes and Tarbecks (though I doubt it). So this one we have to call a political win, but a military non-event (in terms of judgement). General Tywin UNKNOWN.

Defiance of Duskendale - dithers for 6 months while his king is held captive until Barristan breaks the king out in a daring solo ninja action. General Tywin FAIL.

Robert's Rebellion - no military action except to sack the castle of a supposed ally by treachery. General Tywin NOTHING.

Greyjoy Rebellion - the Lannister fleet was smashed at anchor as the Lannister forces marshalled. Probably not his fault, but those are his forces and the only thing known about his input during the rebellion. General Tywin FAIL.

Battle of the Green Fork - Tywin is thoroughly outmanouvered strategically by Robb leading up to this battle and his plan for the battle goes completely wrong. Despite a significantly better force (the northerners have no horse at all) the battle is indecisive and the bulk of the northern host retreats in good order. Although Tywin 'wins' the battle tactically, it is a thorough strategic loss and arguably he should have done a lot better tactically as well. Allowing a defeated and retreating army with no horse to escape is pathetic. General Tywin SUPER FAIL.

Green Fork to Battle of the Fords - fluffed around doing nothing at Harrenhal until eventually dancing to Robb's tune and attempting to return to the Westlands to secure his vulnerable base. Is fortunately beaten at the Battle of the Fords by Edmure (Edmure!) and the remnants of his Riverlords (forces previously crushed by Jaime remember). General Tywin SUPER FAIL.

Battle of the Blackwater - is only present at all due to losing to Edmure and then Littlefinger setting up a Tyrell-Lannister alliance. Turns up late with a Tyrell-Lannister army. Garlan Tyrell commands his van and it arrives with Stannis' army split mid-crossing and takes half in the rear as it waits to cross and complete the storming of KL. Most change sides due to Garlan's ploy with the armour. Credit to Littlefinger, for setting up the Alliance, Tyrion for holding out long enough (and having his hillmen in the Kingswood, which created the blindspot for Garlan to take advantage of), and Garlan for leading the van and the armour ploy. Evidence for Tywin being anything other than a spectator - none. General Tywin NOTHING.

That is it. Tywins entire known military record.
In short, his military record is really quite terrible. But he is THE BOSS, and a scary ass mo'fo', and competent at the mechnics of generalship (if not the art), so he has big wraps from everybody. Who would be brave enough to give him less?

Unreliable Sellsword, on 20 March 2012 - 12:04 PM, said:

He was a political genius and all of his plans worked out in the end somehow to his favour. The only thing he was bad at was in his role as a father.

And generalship, though no one had the balls to even think it, let alone say it.

just an Other, on 20 March 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

Tywin was an excellent politician but a mediocre general.

Exactly.
In summary, Tywin is massively over-rated as a general. But probably not as a ruler or administrator.

Edited by corbon, 20 March 2012 - 09:10 PM.

[The King in the South]

corbon, on 20 March 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

Except that Tywin didn't 'eventually' underestimate someone, he continually underestimated everyone, militarily. He was never a particularly successful commander.

Look at his known history, militarily:
Tarbecks and Reynes - good performance but with overwhelmingly superior resources and no clues as to strategy, tactics or anything other than final results. It is possible, for example, that his losses were 10x those of the Reynes and Tarbecks (though I doubt it). So this one we have to call a political win, but a military non-event (in terms of judgement). General Tywin UNKNOWN.

Defiance of Duskendale - dithers for 6 months while his king is held captive until Barristan breaks the king out in a daring solo ninja action. General Tywin FAIL.

Robert's Rebellion - no military action except to sack the castle of a supposed ally by treachery. General Tywin NOTHING.

Greyjoy Rebellion - the Lannister fleet was smashed at anchor as the Lannister forces marshalled. Probably not his fault, but those are his forces and the only thing known about his input during the rebellion. General Tywin FAIL.

Battle of the Green Fork - Tywin is thoroughly outmanouvered strategically by Robb leading up to this battle and his plan for the battle goes completely wrong. Despite a significantly better force (the northerners have no horse at all) the battle is indecisive and the bulk of the northern host retreats in good order. Although Tywin 'wins' the battle tactically, it is a thorough strategic loss and arguably he should have done a lot better tactically as well. Allowing a defeated and retreating army with no horse to escape is pathetic. General Tywin SUPER FAIL.

Green Fork to Battle of the Fords - fluffed around doing nothing at Harrenhal until eventually dancing to Robb's tune and attempting to return to the Westlands to secure his vulnerable base. Is fortunately beaten at the Battle of the Fords by Edmure (Edmure!) and the remnants of his Riverlords (forces previously crushed by Jaime remember). General Tywin SUPER FAIL.

Battle of the Blackwater - is only present at all due to losing to Edmure and then Littlefinger setting up a Tyrell-Lannister alliance. Turns up late with a Tyrell-Lannister army. Garlan Tyrell commands his van and it arrives with Stannis' army split mid-crossing and takes half in the rear as it waits to cross and complete the storming of KL. Most change sides due to Garlan's ploy with the armour. Credit to Littlefinger, for setting up the Alliance, Tyrion for holding out long enough (and having his hillmen in the Kingswood, which created the blindspot for Garlan to take advantage of), and Garlan for leading the van and the armour ploy. Evidence for Tywin being anything other than a spectator - none. General Tywin NOTHING.

That is it. Tywins entire known military record.
In short, his military record is really quite terrible. But he is THE BOSS, and a scary ass mo'fo', and competent at the mechnics of generalship (if not the art), so he has big wraps from everybody. Who would be brave enough to give him less?



And generalship, though no one had the balls to even think it, let alone say it.



Exactly.
In summary, Tywin is massively over-rated as a general. But probably not as a ruler or administrator.

I'm sorry but some of your "rankings" are just plainly biased and not really looked at closely.

Regarding the Reynes/Tarbecks. It's not unknown. No one ever mentions that the battles were close or anything, or that Tywin had trouble bringing down the rebellions. The only thing everyone ever talks about is how Tywin completely wiped these two groups out with such awe that it's probably unlikely that the battles were even close.

Duskendale: I'm sorry, what the hell are you talking about? He laid siege to the damn city, what did you think he should have done, stormed it??? The goal was not to wipe out the Darklyns but to recover Aerys. Tywin realized that if he just straight up attacked he would win the fight by lose the king, which is the entire point. Instead he saw the chance in Barristan and took it, and it paid off. Just because he himself didn't go in there and pull Aerys out does not mean he "failed", wtf. If anything that was a SUCESS.

Green Fork: I'm curious as to how one gives pursuit with horses across a river?... Regardless Tywins army smashed Boltons (far more casualties on Bolton's side), that counts as a moderate victory, even if the odds were on his side. And he wasn't "thoroughly outmanuvered", he had an entire army invested at Riverrun. Just because Martin decided to make Jaime do one of the most idiotic decisions in terms of military strategy does not make Tywin a "super failure."

Battle of the Fords: I'm not sure what he could have done here. You're acting like there was some clear and easy to see action that should have been taken when there wasn't. Tywin had to contest with three different armies, well protecting three different hotspots

Honestly I agree that Tywin isn't the best commander, but your list is just so biased. "Super fail"? Give me a break. Robb and Stannis would have probably done just as bad, if not worse if they had been in his position.

Edited by The King in the South, 20 March 2012 - 10:21 PM.

[Silmarien]

TheCheesecakeMassacre, on 18 March 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

So I was re-reading AFFC last night and had a thought, what makes Tywin so great?

1) He's really rich- Anyone could be with the rich mines of the Westerlands.
2) Gave Westeros decades of peace as King's Hand- Only because under normal circumstances, major rebellions wouldn't happen as they would be crushed alone. It took the extraordinary events of Lyanna's kidnapping and the murder of many nobles to start a serious rebellion with many rebels and wasn't due to an incompetent Hand.
3) Destroyed the Reyne's and Tarbeck's- One house vs all of the Westerlands.
4) Sacked King's Landing- With the loyalists defeated or at Storm's End vs the full power of the West.
5) Failed to secure the Tyrell's support during the War of the 5 Kings, Renly would have won the war were it not for Stannis having magic.
6) Defeated Stannis on the Blackwater- Almost lured into a trap by the Northern alliance which would have seen the city fall. If he had not met up with a huge Tyrell force won over by Littlefinger then the city may very well have fallen.
7) Has Robb Stark and many Northern commanders killed- If Robb had not been an idiot and broken his vows then the Wedding would have gone as planned, not down to Tywin's planning.

Short of it is- All of Tywin's successes have been down to either his massive resources or luck.

[corbon]

The King in the South, on 20 March 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

I'm sorry but some of your "rankings" are just plainly biased and not really looked at closely.

Regarding the Reynes/Tarbecks. It's not unknown. No one ever mentions that the battles were close or anything, or that Tywin had trouble bringing down the rebellions. The only thing everyone ever talks about is how Tywin completely wiped these two groups out with such awe that it's probably unlikely that the battles were even close.

Yes, it is unknown. There is not the slightest hint of military discussion. We know only the end result, with absolutely zero information as to how it was obtained.

The awe is political, not military. Its the thorough extermination which puts the shits up people. That sort of thing just isn't done, normally being economically counterproductive.
As for the battles, I very much doubt whether there were any. Tywin most likely would have been able to assemble overwhelming force, conduct a seige, with or without a storming, and crush the Reynes and Tarbecks individually. If he put 15,000 men into the field vs 1000 (who retreated immediately to their castles), for example, it doesn't really say anything about his capabilities as a general, just that politically he was able to assemble overwhelming strength and had the steel to abuse it.
Hell, for all we know the Tarbecks and Reynes surrendered without actually fighting.

The King in the South, on 20 March 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

Duskendale: I'm sorry, what the hell are you talking about? He laid siege to the damn city, what did you think he should have done, stormed it??? The goal was not to wipe out the Darklyns but to recover Aerys. Tywin realized that if he just straight up attacked he would win the fight by lose the king, which is the entire point. Instead he saw the chance in Barristan and took it, and it paid off. Just because he himself didn't go in there and pull Aerys out does not mean he "failed", wtf. If anything that was a SUCESS.

What you have is Tywin Lannister with a full army and the backing of all of westeros against one minor family who was poor and relatively weak (it was a tax rebellion). And for 6 months he failed to achieve anything. For 6 months the king languished a captive, mocked by the Darklyns IIRC.
Aerys was never the same man thereafter.
there is no evidence nor suggestion Barristan's deed had anything to do with Tywin. The imression I got was that Barristan eventuallt got fed up with nothing being done and went in and sorted it all out off his own back.

I don't know what he was supposed to do.
But figuring out something, anything, and trying it, within less than 6 months, is the commanders job - if he is any good. And Tywin is rated so highly as a general...

The King in the South, on 20 March 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

Green Fork: I'm curious as to how one gives pursuit with horses across a river?... Regardless Tywins army smashed Boltons (far more casualties on Bolton's side), that counts as a moderate victory, even if the odds were on his side.

You apparently need to reread the battle.
There is a long way for the northern army to retreat back to the Twins - they marched through the night to attack the Lannisters who are at the Ruby Ford already. The river is effectively along a flank, not behind them.
And no, he didn't 'smash' Bolton's army at all. That is what he should have been able to do if he was any good. Instead, Bolton retreated once he saw that the Lannisters were ready for them and his first attack failed. Northern casualties were relatively light.
So Tywin let an army of footmen who had marched all night before fighting, get away through the day without pursuing them and turning a defeat into a rout.

The King in the South, on 20 March 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

And he wasn't "thoroughly outmanuvered", he had an entire army invested at Riverrun. Just because Martin decided to make Jaime do one of the most idiotic decisions in terms of military strategy does not make Tywin a "super failure."

He certainly was outmanouvered. He thought he was facing Robb Stark and the northern host and marhced to defeat him, but found he had been suckered and cut off from his base.

Jaime didn't do too much idiotic you know. Jaime crushed the Riverlords first, and then invested Riverrun. There is only one way to invest it, and he did that. He had outriders out, but the Blackfish harrassed them and picked them off until they were withdrawn to prevent unnecessary casualties. Jaime expected to have word from Tywin if the northern host came for him, but unbeknownst to him the Starks had successfully been targetting messenger ravens.
Once Robb was in position, he sent a small force of Tullys in to raid Jaimes' camp. As far as Jaime knows these are mere remnants of forces he has already crushed, so he impetuously pursues them into the woods where Robb ambushes him.
It wasn't an outstanding display by Jaime, but he was suckered in by being denied information and then fed what he expected to see.
But then, I didn't put this one down to Tywin's failure anyway. He had nothing to do with this battle, just the strategic failure. It was his job to trap Robb's forces and prevent them linking up at Riverrun.

The King in the South, on 20 March 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

Battle of the Fords: I'm not sure what he could have done here. You're acting like there was some clear and easy to see action that should have been taken when there wasn't. Tywin had to contest with three different armies, well protecting three different hotspots

It is not 3 armies, it is one army, split into 4 parts - 3 ford-guards and a reserve.
But this is an army that has already been beaten by Jaime, so its not exactly strong. Apparently the Lannisters still had nearly double the Tully numbers overall. If they'd concentrated they'd have had 4x or more the numbers at ony one ford, including the entire Tully reserve. Gregor did make it across the river, but got smashed by the Tully reserve. Whether that means that Gregor wasn't supported well enough or just that Edmure got his timing perfect is unknown.
And regardless of how easy or otherwise it was, that fact remaining that Tywin tried and failed, and took heavy casualties doing so. And was forced away with his tail between his legs.
By Edmure.

The King in the South, on 20 March 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

Honestly I agree that Tywin isn't the best commander, but your list is just so biased. "Super fail"? Give me a break. Robb and Stannis would have probably done just as bad, if not worse if they had been in his position.

The point is that Tywin has a reputation as a 'great general', both from westerosi and many fans.
But he simply doesn't perform at all when we look at the actual evidence. I am forced to conclude that Tywn's reputation as a general is based entirely on his political position and ruthlessness, not on his military capabilities.
My list is not 'my' list. It is a complete (AFAIK) list of every instance where we have anything approaching data on Tywin's military performance.

Robb and Stannis may have done just as badly in the same circumstances. I very much doubt it though. Both have been in much worse circumstances and achieved more, with less. Tywin is visibly guilty of arrogant foolishness in underestimating anyone else, whereas Robb is shown to shrewdly play to his opponent and feed or manipulate the opponents weaknesses to defeat them. Stannis appears to simply be irresistably stubborn, but also shows a fair bit of nous judging his opponents (and his own men) correctly.

[OldCorvid]

As a military commander? Yes. As an effective Lord or Casterly Rock or Hand of the King? No.

His major failing was as a parent. He had House Lannister in a very effective position to dominate the kingdom after coming from a pretty shitty starting position. Sure there were goldmines, but the point is that he was very effective at using and projecting that wealth.

People underestimate the difficulties of actually running things. Varys and Littlefinger have a lot of operative freedom that comes from being behind the scenes and having no familial responsibilities or outside attention. They could not get away with half the shit they pull (and pretty much all the shit Varys pulls) if they had a house to represent. Tywin was very attentive to the role of perception in his job which both made him effective and ruthless.

On the other side, people underestimate the value of strategy versus tactics. He was not a brilliant tactician, but he was an insightful strategist and had enough resolve to believe in his strategy. You're not gonna see a lot of jaw-dropping twists from Tywin but you'll see a continued pattern of strong decision-making.

Again, the guy's main failing was as a father. And here the much-maligned Ned Stark outshines him raising a batch of kids who are all pretty impressive for their age (Sansa may have been naive and a bit entitled, but that's a tough time for her and if things go as plans she gets that good marriage and does pretty well. She's kind too).

What's great about this series is you don't have any heroes who are better than everyone at everything. Most people who succeed at one thing have the right balance of skills to succeed at that thing. People who fail are often great at something else but mismatched for at least one aspect of what they're trying to do.

[tze]

I think part of the issue is that Tywin was extremely competent in the short term (if you define "the short term" as "the time period in which Tywin Lannister was alive") and kind of horrible for House Lannister and the realm in the long term (if you define "the long term" as "the open-ended time period beginning at Tywin Lannister's death and continuing on into future decades and even centuries").

Everything he worked so hard to achieve is now being destroyed by his children, in large part because he never bothered teaching those children (Cersei especially) how to rule. By treating his children as pawns to the greater glory of House Lannister, he prevented them from truly being a family, and sowed seeds that allowed the Jaime/Cersei incest and the Cersei/Tyrion hatefest to fester, when a non-dysfunctional family unit might have prevented both of those things from happening. By tying "Lannister success" almost solely to "fear of Tywin", he simply ensured that once the latter was removed (upon Tywin's inevitable death), the former was inherently put in terrible jeopardy. The thing that we credit him for most---serving as a capable Hand---simultaneously ensured that the Mad King was permitted to be "the Mad King" for far longer than he might otherwise have been, because if Aerys had been permitted to ruin himself early on, he might have destroyed himself earlier and everyone's lives (Rhaegar, Cersei, Jaime, Elia, Brandon, Rickard, Lyanna) might have turned out very differently. By propping up Aerys's rule, Tywin rather ironically ensured the security of the realm while simultaneously placing it in jeopardy.

He completely, totally, utterly misjudged the Northmen. The Red Wedding, while good for House Lannister in the short-term, is disasterous for House Lannister in the long term, because the Northmen have freakishly long memories and will never bow to anyone with Lannister blood on the Iron Throne ever again. (I'm not even sure they'd have accepted a son of Sansa and Tyrion as the Stark of Winterfell, to be perfectly honest; if such a child was raised in Casterly Rock or was surrounded by Lannisters in Winterfell, the Northmen would never have considered the kid a true Stark and Tywin's entire plan would have been worthless at the outset.)

Tywin didn't secure Joffrey's power base, he simply ensured Joffrey could never truly rule a united Westeros. Those hostages won't live forever---even if everything had worked out as Tywin intended, and the North had sworn fealty to the Iron Throne, the second those hostages died of old age, boom---rebellion. This is the North, and the North remembers. (And if Tywin had tried to ally with Mance Rayder against the Northmen, as he mused to Tyrion he was considering doing . . . I kinda wish he'd tried it, if only to see the dozens and dozens of ways it would have blown up in Tywin's face.)

Moreover, Tywin misjudged Roose Bolton: he assumed Roose could hold the North even for a little while (which seems kind of laughable, given what we see in ADWD), and he assumed Roose could be controlled. This isn't the thread to get into what kind of game Roose is truly playing, but it's relevant that Roose made very, very sure that the blame for the RW fell on House Lannister just as much as House Frey (Tywin said Robb was meant to die by a random arrow, but Roose stabbed him to death in full view of hundreds and explicitly blamed Jaime, who represented both House Lannister (as Tywin's son) and the Iron Throne itself (as uncle of the King and a Kingsguard)).

To me, Tywin is someone who was considered a capable and effective man in his own lifetime, but when future generations look back at what he actually did, his "competence" won't be quite as clear-cut. He thought his own fearsome reputation would be enough to cow both the Dornishmen (who knew full well who killed Elia and her kids) and the Northmen (who knew full well who had a role in the RW) into long-term submission, that he'd secured House Lannister's contol of the Iron Throne. But the same actions that gave Tywin his fearsome reputation also made firm, eternal enemies, enemies who blame Tywin's atrocities not just on him, but on his entire family. All he did was annihilate his family's chances of holding Westeros in the long term and ensure that the Seven Kingdoms will quite probably never be fully united ever again.

[Castel]

Quote

Everything he worked so hard to achieve is now being destroyed by his children, in large part because he never bothered teaching those children (Cersei especially) how to rule. By treating his children as pawns to the greater glory of House Lannister, he prevented them from truly being a family, and sowed seeds that allowed the Jaime/Cersei incest and the Cersei/Tyrion hatefest to fester, when a non-dysfunctional family unit might have prevented both of those things from happening. By tying "Lannister success" almost solely to "fear of Tywin", he simply ensured that once the latter was removed (upon Tywin's inevitable death), the former was inherently put in terrible jeopardy. The thing that we credit him for most---serving as a capable Hand---simultaneously ensured that the Mad King was permitted to be "the Mad King" for far longer than he might otherwise have been, because if Aerys had been permitted to ruin himself early on, he might have destroyed himself earlier and everyone's lives (Rhaegar, Cersei, Jaime, Elia, Brandon, Rickard, Lyanna) might have turned out very differently. By propping up Aerys's rule, Tywin rather ironically ensured the security of the realm while simultaneously placing it in jeopardy.

Except of course little of this is his fault. Joanna kept the incest from him and he can't be at all places at once. Not to mention that Aerys took his son from him and so he had  no heir. Tyrion's and Cersei's issues are due to the fact that she felt he killed her mother.]

Destroyed himself how? Kings rule for life, good luck getting him out without a fight.

Quote

Moreover, Tywin misjudged Roose Bolton: he assumed Roose could hold the North even for a little while (which seems kind of laughable, given what we see in ADWD), and he assumed Roose could be controlled

Tywin honestly didn't care, as long as they fought amongst themselves. It was to his benefit that Roose fail to control the North actually/

Quote

This is the North, and the North remembers

Which is why Roose Bolton now holds the North and they'll need to go through him to get to the Iron Throne, which none of the contenders have the balls to do without a Stark. And this crap about the Northmen not bowing...they're doing it already.

[Darth Rivers]

Guy's, a friendly reminder: goldmines alone don't generate wealth. They create inflation. Smart management of gold mines creates wealth.

[David Selig]

Come to think of it, it's pretty weird that Tywin apparently never tried to teach Cersei about politics and how to rule. Not only he was planning for years to make her Queen, but after Jaime joined the Kingsguard, shouldn't Tywin have started to prepare her for his heir? He certainly had no intention of letting Tyrion inherit the Rock and also never intended to remarry...