What is the opinion of this good forum's people regarding Theon Greyjoy?

[sj4iy]

Where are you when people judge the IB by modern standards, I wonder? Vic, for instance, follows all the rules of his society, but people still judge him.

You can't have moral relativism in regard to your pet characters and moral absolutism for everyone else. Pick one and stick with it.

I would say the same damn thing to anyone using such a straw man argument to make their extremely weak case.

[INCBlackbird]

This is beyond ridiculous. Way beyond ridiculous.

As someone else have said before the; Just because other characters had done terrible things, it does not absolve Theon from KILLING INNOCENT CHILDREN!

why is it beyond ridiculous to not look at a situation in a black and white way ?

I never said he was fully absolved of the crime, I still think theon is half responsible (he shares responsibility with ramsay, though I deem ramsay way more responsible then theon considering the situation) what I said was that people have double standards when it comes to which characters deserve what for killing children, which is ridiculous!

[INCBlackbird]

(1) Well, your book is clearly wrong. I can enjoy something fully without thinking it's justified. If I couldn't I probably wouldn't enjoy any of these books. As a person of the 21st century, I find it amazing that you can think Theon is some golden hero victim of the world when it's his own actions that led to the deaths and imprisonment of innocent people and his capture.

ok you got a point that... I can enjoy things without justifying them. but if you enjoy a character being tortured because you dislike that character, well let's just say, I think that's pretty horrible.

I never said that I found theon a golden here. but I do most defenitly consider him a victim, because he was a victim for most of his life.

the deaths theon caused were very very few when compared to other characters, and those other characters are somehow not responsible for them according to a lot of people in this fandom. (double standards) I do not absolve theon of what he did, but what he did was far more understandable and far less worse then what 80% of the characters in GOT did. I just don't look at characters as completely black and white.

and I judge people not by their actions but how they felt about those actions, which is what truely says something about the person. and the fact is that most characters in asoiaf do not feel guilty about their actions (even when they are morally grey at best but often just plain wrong) they feel that those actions are justified. while Theon actually feels a tremendous ammount of guilt and he was in a complete emotional turmoil (and was being toroughly manipulated by ramsay) while he commited most of those actions. which tells me that theon is not at all a bad person.

[INCBlackbird]

And, what, that makes him innocent? There are still two dead boys that he could have left alone.

never said he was completely innocent of it (I still consider him responsible to some extent) but there's a difference between what happened and theon killing two kids in cold blood (which is what most people in this fandom make it out to be) it's important to judge a person's actions according with the situation, that's why in today's society we have trials.

[LordStoneheart]

ok you got a point that... I can enjoy things without justifying them. but if you enjoy a character being tortured because you dislike that character, well let's just say, I think that's pretty horrible.

I never said that I found theon a golden here. but I do most defenitly consider him a victim, because he was a victim for most of his life.

the deaths theon caused were very very few when compared to other characters, and those other characters are somehow not responsible for them according to a lot of people in this fandom. (double standards) I do not absolve theon of what he did, but what he did was far more understandable and far less worse then what 80% of the characters in GOT did. I just don't look at characters as completely black and white.

A character's actions are not any better or worse because of other characters' actions. His were just plain malevolent when it came to the citizens of Winterfell. Sure, he was a hostage, but it was not them that decided it. It was Ned. Now there's dead north men, women, and children in the Dreadfort, possibly being tortured just as he was. I'll feel more sympathy for them seeing as he caused them to be taken there.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1. I am not only speaking about physical abuse here, he suffered less of that at winterfell. mental abuse however... why is that never considered as something traumatising ?

They didn't abused him verbally or physically (yes corporal punishment even today is a way of punishment). Sure he felt bad because of what happened but yet again it wasn't the Starks who abused him but his biological family when his father gave him up.

2. we've been over this thoughts =/= actions. discrimination = actions

Wrong, someone's actions are connected to what he thinks.So Theon's discrimination of John was both thoughts and actions.

3. a situation being horrible is not limited to physical abuse... how black and white do you see the world, come on! theon's entire situation = psychological torture

Again, his father gave him up so his psychological abuse comes from his father's action and has nothing to do with the Starks.

4. who's talking about killing him

When someone loses the war it's either death or imprisonment. Theon should be grateful that he was at the second category.

5. how is it ok to punish Theon for what Balon did?

How is ok to kill the miller's sons? That said I don't know how taking the child from an abusive environment is punishing the child.

why is it beyond ridiculous to not look at a situation in a black and white way ?

I never said he was fully absolved of the crime, I still think theon is half responsible (he shares responsibility with ramsay, though I deem ramsay way more responsible then theon considering the situation) what I said was that people have double standards when it comes to which characters deserve what for killing children, which is ridiculous!

Wait did Ramsay told him "Go and kill the miller's sons?" because I don't remember it to be in the books.

[INCBlackbird]

His life with the Starks wasn't better? Well, Theon disagrees. I'm sorry but it's plain in ADWD.

I agree that the wardship was not always good to him but Ned made sure that it went the best possible way for him. Theon felt unsatisfied with his status at Winterfell (being a Greyjoy in a Stark household....) and it's normal. And Theon was scared of Ned at the beginning, when he left the Isles to settle at Winterfell. Ok, Theon shouldn't be grateful to the Starks fair enough. But just read what he thinks of Winterfell, compared to Pyke. Theon got along well with most of the household at the exception of Jon Snow perhaps.

And for the executions, Ned was educating Theon according to his values. All the Stark children went through it and putting aside Theon would have contributed to isolating him further.

you got a point, I do remember theon thinking that winterfell wasn't his home but it was the closest to one he ever had.

but I don't think you can see him being a hostage as an in any way positve situation. theon only had two bad choices to chose from.

I do agree that the starks did their best for theon (though there are a few things I deem unfair in their treatment of him, but hey they are not perfect, thank god none of the characters are!) I think it's mostly the situation, the mere fact that he was a hostage under the threat of death is psychological torture in my book! but I don't nessacarily blame anyone for that, I blame the system mostly.

I think there's plenty of evidense that points to theon not getting alonge well with the household, they probably had conversations and theon defenitly tried to belong but there's most certainly a power inbalance and prejudice thing going on. also, may of the stark kids have expressed their disliking of theon in their chapters. the only one he really had was robb, and almost patrick mallister, until his father told him he couldn't be friends with a greyjoy.

I know he was doing it to educate theon (and use him as a squire). I know he wasn't doing it to be cruel. but it's not a strech for Ned to consider "this kid lives under threat of death, maybe I should show some understanding of him, in particular, seeing this to be slightly cruel"

[Lord Reaver]

I would say the same damn thing to anyone using such a straw man argument to make their extremely weak case.

Fine, now go argue with the people on this thread who deplore Theon for killing Farlen, which was his right as Lord of Winterfell, or for killing soldiers in war.

[INCBlackbird]

A character's actions are not any better or worse because of other characters' actions. His were just plain malevolent when it came to the citizens of Winterfell. Sure, he was a hostage, but it was not them that decided it. It was Ned. Now there's dead north men, women, and children in the Dreadfort, possibly being tortured just as he was. I'll feel more sympathy for them seeing as he caused them to be taken there.

I never said theon's actions are better because other characters actions are worse, I didn't absolve him of his crimes. I said that this fandom has a double standard when it comes to this sort of thing. if you deem theon a horrible person, then you have to deem all the characters that did the same and worse also a horrible person.

how is theon responsible for what happens at the dreadfort ? that was all ramsay! theon had no part in it! theon is responsible for his own actions : killing a few people in winterfell (but in general taking it with the least bloodshed possible), killing some of his own men, having a part in the deaths of the miller boys

[LordBloodraven]

Fine, now go argue with the people on this thread who deplore Theon for killing Farlen, which was his right as Lord of Winterfell, or for killing soldiers in war.

What was Farlen guilty of? Is a Lord allowed to kill anybody because he can?

[LordStoneheart]

I never said theon's actions are better because other characters actions are worse, I didn't absolve him of his crimes. I said that this fandom has a double standard when it comes to this sort of thing. if you deem theon a horrible person, then you have to deem all the characters that did the same and worse also a horrible person.

how is theon responsible for what happens at the dreadfort ? that was all ramsay! theon had no part in it! theon is responsible for his own actions : killing a few people in winterfell (but in general taking it with the least bloodshed possible), killing some of his own men, having a part in the deaths of the miller boys

By sending "Reek" to the Dreadfort for reinforcements he led to the sacking of winterfell and capture of the citizens and himself.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

What was Farlen guilty of? Is a Lord allowed to kill anybody because he can?

His dogs had barked at him and scared him.

[INCBlackbird]

(1) They didn't abused him verbally or physically (yes corporal punishment even today is a way of punishment). Sure he felt bad because of what happened but (2) yet again it wasn't the Starks who abused him but his biological family when his father gave him up.

(3) Wrong, someone's actions are connected to what he thinks.So Theon's discrimination of John was both thoughts and actions.

(4) Again, his father gave him up so his psychological abuse comes from his father's action and has nothing to do with the Starks.

(5) When someone loses the war it's either death or imprisonment. Theon should be grateful that he was at the second category.

(6) How is ok to kill the miller's sons? That said I don't know how taking the child from an abusive environment is punishing the child.

(7) Wait did Ramsay told him "Go and kill the miller's sons?" because I don't remember it to be in the books.

1. he was a prisoner under threat of death, I'm not even gonna list over all th other things I've been repeating for the past few pages cause that alone should be enough to be considered abuse. and corporal punishment is abuse! (though I would not have minded if the stark kids had been treated by the same standards, because the story does not happen in the 21ste century. but if the stark children don't get punished that way, neither should theon)

2. I distinctly remember him not being at home when he was a hostage under threat of death, however, as I have stated many many times by now, I do not blame the starks, I blame the system.

3. except that to commit actions it actually requires you to, you know... commit actions... logic...

discrimination thoughts have no consequences whereas discrimination actions do. (which by the way, does not mean I think discrimination thoughts are ok, they are just irrelevant because we are talking about consequences (theon being disrespected for 10 years)

4. again, who is at fault is irrelevant, fact is, theon wasn't, which is what it's all about.

5. wow... gratefull... really ? when you get robbed, will you be gratefull to the robber to not kill you ? I don't think so. injustice is injustice.

6. it was not ok, never said it was, but I've been over this... and it is not ok because he was put in another abusive environment. stop pretending like the reason they took theon was to help him...

7. this is from theon's 4th chaper in acok:

“M’lord prince.” Reek urged his horse near. “Might be them Starks never came this way. If I was them, I would have gone north and east, maybe. To the Umbers. Good Stark men, they are. But their lands are a long way. The boys will shelter someplace nearer. Might be I know where.” Theon looked at him suspiciously. “Tell me.”

“You know that old mill, sitting lonely on the Acorn Water? We stopped there when I was being dragged to Winterfell a captive. The miller’s wife sold us hay for our horses while that old knight clucked over her brats. Might be the Starks are hiding there.” Theon knew the mill. He had even tumbled the miller’s wife a time or two. There was nothing special about it, or her. “Why there? There are a dozen villages and holdfasts just as close.” Amusement shone in those pale eyes. “Why? Now that’s past knowing. But they’re there, I have a feeling.” He was growing sick of the man’s sly answers. His lips look like two worms fucking. “What are you saying? If you’ve kept some knowledge from me-”

this is theon's pov and that moment theon doesn't realise that he's being manipulated but as a reader I think it's pretty clear he's being severly manipulated here. you know the whole, "i'm gonna make you think it's your idea, but actually it's mine" (that is precicely how manipulation works)

but there's also the third reek chapter in adwd :

“Stark’s little wolflings are dead,” said Ramsay, sloshing some more ale into his cup, “and they’ll stay dead. Let them show their ugly faces, and my girls will rip those wolves of theirs to pieces. The sooner they turn up, the sooner I kill them again.”

The elder Bolton sighed. “Again? Surely you misspeak. You never slew Lord Eddard’s sons, those two sweet boys we loved so well. That was Theon Turncloak’s work, remember? How many of our grudging friends do you imagine we’d retain if the truth were known?"

[Lord Reaver]

What was Farlen guilty of? Is a Lord allowed to kill anybody because he can?

Murder.

[INCBlackbird]

By sending "Reek" to the Dreadfort for reinforcements he led to the sacking of winterfell and capture of the citizens and himself.

by that logic Ned and robb were responsible for their own deaths, or you could trace it back further if you want, the red wedding is probably aegon the conquerers fault for invading westeros...

a person is only responsible for their own actions, not those of others, weither or not they enabled them is irrelivant.

this was a poor attempt to yet again blame things on theon that are not his fault.

[Ser Frasier of House Crane]

He went from being a supreme ass to my favorite character in ​A Dance with Dragons. His character evolution is incredible, and I gotta say, a large part of why I like Theon is due to Alfie Allen's herculean performance on the show. He is Theon to me.

[LordStoneheart]

by that logic Ned and robb were responsible for their own deaths, or you could trace it back further if you want, the red wedding is probably aegon the conquerers fault for invading westeros...

a person is only responsible for their own actions, not those of others, weither or not they enabled them is irrelivant.

this was a poor attempt to yet again blame things on theon that are not his fault.

Direct cause. Direct. Cause. Theon lets Reek go for reinforcements at the Dreadfort, a place known for being the enemies of the Starks, and that was his downfall. It is completely his fault. "It was either that or face the northern armies!" Well, he wouldn't be in this lose/lose situation if not for his own actions, so he still is to blame for his own downfall. He could've went to the Wall, he could've listened to Asha, he could've listened to his father in the first place. But nope. He chose Winterfell. He choose to trust Reek. He became Reek. Direct cause.

[Lord Reaver]

Direct cause. Direct. Cause. Theon lets Reek go for reinforcements at the Dreadfort, a place known for being the enemies of the Starks, and that was his downfall. It is completely his fault. "It was either that or face the northern armies!" Well, he wouldn't be in this lose/lose situation if not for his own actions, so he still is to blame for his own downfall. He could've went to the Wall, he could've listened to Asha, he could've listened to his father in the first place. But nope. He chose Winterfell. He choose to trust Reek. He became Reek. Direct cause.

Ned chose to trust LF. Direct cause.

[LordStoneheart]

Ned chose to trust LF. Direct cause.

well, first of all, strawman. Do you have a quote of me saying this isn't the case with Ned? No. I've said the opposite up thread (or maybe a different thread) where I said, yeah, exactly.

[INCBlackbird]

Direct cause. Direct. Cause. Theon lets Reek go for reinforcements at the Dreadfort, a place known for being the enemies of the Starks, and that was his downfall. It is completely his fault. "It was either that or face the northern armies!" Well, he wouldn't be in this lose/lose situation if not for his own actions, so he still is to blame for his own downfall. He could've went to the Wall, he could've listened to Asha, he could've listened to his father in the first place. But nope. He chose Winterfell. He choose to trust Reek. He became Reek. Direct cause.

by that logic Ned caused his own death because it was a direct cause of trusting littlefinger (you know, like theon trusted "reek")

it was also robb's fault that theon "betrayed" him because it was a direct cause of him letting him go (like theon let "reek" go)

come on... you don't even believe this yourself.