18 replies to this topic

[rickard]

I've been searching on this forum for a thread that gets to this idea but I haven't found one so I'd like to start a new one.  I apologize if this duplicates something previously posted.

Are there some similarities between Varys and the Kindly Man (and through him to Him of Many Faces and the House of Black and White?).  I will outline a few below:

- The Kindly Man always asks Arya (no one) what three new things she knows today that she did not know before.  Is this something that Varys would have asked one of his "little birds?"

- Varys has an uncanny ability for being a master of disguises.  Did he learn this ability at the House of Black and White?

- Part of Arya's experience as a blind girl was to learn the maze of tunnels in the House of Black and White.  Is it possible that Varys had the same experience?  It could help explain his knowledge of the labyrinthine tunnels in Kings Landing.

- Did Varys learn the art of poisons at the House of Black and White?  Could he have poisoned Jon Arryn?

Thoughts?

Edited by rickard, 20 March 2012 - 07:21 PM.

[rickard]

I also had a follow up idea:

We know from "The Ugly Little Girl" chapter in ADWD (and several others even in AFFC) that the House of Black and White has weirwood chairs, doors, and even an idol.  Since Bran can see through weirwood trees (does he see through the faces in the weirwoods?) will he be able to eventually locate Arya in the House of Black and White using one or several of the weirwood faces that are in there?  Or does it only work for living weirwoods?  Are any of the weirwoods in the House of Black and White alive?

If Bran can use the weirwoods in the House of Black and White I think he will try to communicate with Arya somehow and get her to return to Westeros where she will be reunited with Nymeria.

[Frey Pie]

Very interesting thoughts rick....i would think that Bran can only see through weirwoods that are alive,rooted to the ground and have faces.I thinkh their power has something to do with the earth also not jus the actual wood.
It does make sense about Varys.I think Tyrion states what a maze it is down there and Cersei and Jaime both comment on the ammount of secret passages found in the tower of Hand alone.Therefore i wonder how did he learn his way around them all?Hes been around for20years i suppose...And he kills Kevan and Pycelle very easily.I always found it a lil weird that Jaime managed to sneak up on him when wanting to free Tyrion and this would go against your theory.Also you would have to discount the history we got off Varys and Illyrio but theyre well known liers so.....
I beleive it was Lysa who poisoned Jon wasnt it?

[Ekopold]

Frey Pie, on 21 March 2012 - 02:28 PM, said:

Very interesting thoughts rick....i would think that Bran can only see through weirwoods that are alive,rooted to the ground and have faces.I thinkh their power has something to do with the earth also not jus the actual wood.
It does make sense about Varys.I think Tyrion states what a maze it is down there and Cersei and Jaime both comment on the ammount of secret passages found in the tower of Hand alone.Therefore i wonder how did he learn his way around them all?Hes been around for20years i suppose...And he kills Kevan and Pycelle very easily.I always found it a lil weird that Jaime managed to sneak up on him when wanting to free Tyrion and this would go against your theory.Also you would have to discount the history we got off Varys and Illyrio but theyre well known liers so.....
I beleive it was Lysa who poisoned Jon wasnt it?

Interesting thoughts about the weirwood doors. GRRM does have a tendancy to use stuff in ways we can't yet imagine, so it will be interesting to see whether he will use something like that in WoW.  

Yup, Lysa donnit. She admitted as much to Sansa and Littlefinger just before talking a walk out the Moon Door.

[EgoistMusketeer]

Varys is good at disguising himself but he can't (at least from the knowledge we have) change faces like Jaqen.

[Septon Meribald]

Varys grew up in a mummer's troop. He learned his disguise abilities from them it would appear, though surely he's worked on it since then and improved his method beyond what's necessary for the stage.

[Free Northman]

Varys has no connection to the Faceless Men.

In fact, his aim of restoring a Targaryen/Blackfyre dynasty is directly in contrast to the Faceless Men's goals of eradicating the Dragons.

Varys is a talented Mummer. He has no magical powers.

[Tourniquet]

Maybe he employs failures from the House of Black and White, all of the times that Arya was asked if she wanted to leave implies there are some who get a little training and then leave. They could be employed by a Varys type.

[The King of Worms]

Varys was sold by the mummers troupe to a sorcerer who castrated him and through his testicles onto a fire altar in some bizarre fire-blood ritual. It sounds like the sorcerer wanted his "king's blood" to either awaken a shadow like the one Melisandre used to kill Renly, or possibly to try to hatch a dragon egg. Either way, I took this to mean that Varys is a secret Targ, a Blackfyre-Targ or secret high-born forced to live like a "weasel" kind of like Arya. I think it explains a lot about his motivations, his actions, and his skill set.
The Kindly Man and Varys have similar methods and skills, but totally different beliefs. They both live in "the shadows" and they are both masters of their game. I don't see hints in the books connecting them though.
Varys also appears in Mad Aerys's court suddenly, a commoner and foriegner from across the Narrow Sea. This guy just shows up out of the blue and is sitting at the King's ear. I always thought this to mean that he was secretly kin and blood (bastard or otherwise)  to the King, and had come with some kind of proof of this for Aerys. He and Aerys kept it a secret to preserve Rhaegar's succession... and he kept the secret after that to preserve his own skin and keep a position serving Robert. He used his position at court to undermine Robert and make sure his royal line died with him, all the while doing what he could to preserve the "children"; Viserys, Dany, and Young Griff. He has played a part in the destruction of the Baratheons, Lannisters, and Starks, I think out of family revenge.
In my view he is more like Arya than the Kindly Man. The Kindly Man is devout in his faith and doesn't believe in family duty or revenge. He believes in renouncing your own identity and letting go of the past.
But both Varys and Arya hide their identity beneath false names and lies, but secretly deep in the heart they carry their family name and family revenge.

[Bolivar]

^ Worms, I thought Aerys hired Varys because the legend of his skills spread across the narrow sea.

I do think there is some significance to Varys and Illyro both being from Braavos, and that being where the "house with the red door" that Dany/Viserys grew up in was located. I think overall there is some connection between them, the Faceless Men, and the Iron Bank. I don't think it's a coincidence the Iron Bank withdraws its support for the Iron Throne shortly after Varys disappears. And because of their relationship with Valyria, I wouldn't be surprised if they were involved in the Doom, and maybe have some connection to the maesters because of it. I've been thinking Varys is a faceless man myself, even though his disguises are more rudimentary than, say, Jaqen's. But I think Braavos itself is going to be revealed as a player in much of the affairs of Westeros and they have an agenda.

[DragonSpawn]

rickard, on 20 March 2012 - 12:38 AM, said:

I've been searching on this forum for a thread that gets to this idea but I haven't found one so I'd like to start a new one.  I apologize if this duplicates something previously posted.

Are there some similarities between Varys and the Kindly Man (and through him to Him of Many Faces and the House of Black and White?).  I will outline a few below:

- The Kindly Man always asks Arya (no one) what three new things she knows today that she did not know before.  Is this something that Varys would have asked one of his "little birds?"

- Varys has an uncanny ability for being a master of disguises.  Did he learn this ability at the House of Black and White?

- Part of Arya's experience as a blind girl was to learn the maze of tunnels in the House of Black and White.  Is it possible that Varys had the same experience?  It could help explain his knowledge of the labyrinthine tunnels in Kings Landing.

- Did Varys learn the art of poisons at the House of Black and White?  Could he have poisoned Jon Arryn?

Thoughts?

I think you are exactly right... but what you have stumbled on is a clue about who the heros and villains are in the story... and what will happen in the war for the dawn...

Each of the Stark children is being groomed for a purpose... A particular villain that only with a substantial amount of grooming and training can be overcome...

Another example might be Bran - who purpose is to defeat the final villain (whoever that is - i'm assuming a very powerful anti-greenseer or something)

Sansa - essentially being groomed by the hound to see through lies and pre-text... her villain i suspect is LF

Rickon - we don't know yet.... i wouldn't even like to guess...

Rob Stark - a scary thought - but i don't think his story is over either... and i don't know which side he will be fighting on... but once the dead start rising... anything is possible...

[SynthFG]

Mehh Varys is patently an agent of the Great Other
We know he had contact with higher powers when he lost his cock, we only have his word that he was cast off afterwards. What if instead he was given a mission
It also appears that his purpose is rather than supporting any single dynasty, rather to further conflict and strife in the 7 kingdoms, at a time when the focus needs to be on the north
He was running round spewing Poison into Ares's ears stoking his paranoia and indirectly fermenting Robs rebellion. He then kept things on the Boil during Robs reign whilst preparing for the return of Visserys, probably with the plan of throwing Aegon into the mix once vic had taken KL

[Bastard of the White Knife]

Bolivar, on 22 March 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

^ Worms, I thought Aerys hired Varys because the legend of his skills spread across the narrow sea.

I do think there is some significance to Varys and Illyro both being from Braavos, and that being where the "house with the red door" that Dany/Viserys grew up in was located. I think overall there is some connection between them, the Faceless Men, and the Iron Bank. I don't think it's a coincidence the Iron Bank withdraws its support for the Iron Throne shortly after Varys disappears. And because of their relationship with Valyria, I wouldn't be surprised if they were involved in the Doom, and maybe have some connection to the maesters because of it. I've been thinking Varys is a faceless man myself, even though his disguises are more rudimentary than, say, Jaqen's. But I think Braavos itself is going to be revealed as a player in much of the affairs of Westeros and they have an agenda.

Varys is from Lys.  Illyrio is originally from Braavos, but has spent most of his life in Pentos.  I'm personally of the opinion that there is a "pro-magic and pro-dragon" fight going on.  The Braavosi and Maesters are anti-dragon, to be sure.  The Maesters and quite possibly the Braavosi are anti-magic.  The Maesters think dragons and magic take away the importance of learning and science and the Braavosi fear any person or group of people having access to great power based upon their ancenstors persecution by the Valayrians.  They may not be necessarily working in perfect harmony.  We know that "Pate" in ADWD is a FM who is spying on Archmaester Marwin, who seems to be the sole maester of any real importance who is studying or thinking about magic and dragons.  Another of the "big picture battles" is over the existential threat brought about by the Others.  Most of the world scoffs of the idea that this is truly a threat.  However, some factions, most notably the Red Priests of R'hllor and the Night's Watch, know that the Others and the true threat to the Realm and the world and will use any means to defeat them.  These factions are all working at un-coordinated cross-purposes instead of working together.  I don't think it is a surprise that there are connections through the Starks to (1) The Night's Watch - Jon (2) Braavos - Arya (3) The citadel - Sam.  I'm sure at some point Dany and her dragons factor into the defeat of the Others and she's connected to Jon through blood relation (R+L=J).  I also think Tyrion winds up as Dany's Hand, and he's got a realtionship to Jon from his visit to the Wall.  In essence, Jon, Jon's favorite sibling (Arya), his best friend (Sam) and his cousin (Dany) are the connections to the story's conclusion.

[Septon Meribald]

To clear up a few things on here:

As stated above only Illyrio is from Braavos he and Varys met and lived in Pentos though.

Varys was sold to the sorcerer first, who used his genitals in an unspecified blood magic ritual he then joined a mummers troop when the sorcerer discarded him having no further use for him. There is nothing to indicate that this was for the purpose of shadow babies, which seem to involve sex not blood, or for hatching dragons.There is no reason to assume that there are not other blood magic spells one could cast, such as a spell to bring bad fortune to your enemies, love to you or protection to a child.

[Bastard of the White Knife]

Septon Meribald, on 23 March 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

To clear up a few things on here:

As stated above only Illyrio is from Braavos he and Varys met and lived in Pentos though.

Varys was sold to the sorcerer first, who used his genitals in an unspecified blood magic ritual he then joined a mummers troop when the sorcerer discarded him having no further use for him. There is nothing to indicate that this was for the purpose of shadow babies, which seem to involve sex not blood, or for hatching dragons.There is no reason to assume that there are not other blood magic spells one could cast, such as a spell to bring bad fortune to your enemies, love to you or protection to a child.

Agreed with one minor possible correction.  I think Varys was born a slave and sold to a mummers troop.  The head mummer sold Varys to a sorcerer to cut off his junk.  By the time Varys got away (or was released) the mummers troop had left and so Varys took up theft as a means to survive.  He became very good and wound up "partnering up" with Ilyrio.

[rickard]

Bastard of the White Knife, on 23 March 2012 - 08:36 AM, said:

Varys is from Lys.  Illyrio is originally from Braavos, but has spent most of his life in Pentos.  I'm personally of the opinion that there is a "pro-magic and pro-dragon" fight going on.  The Braavosi and Maesters are anti-dragon, to be sure.  The Maesters and quite possibly the Braavosi are anti-magic.  The Maesters think dragons and magic take away the importance of learning and science and the Braavosi fear any person or group of people having access to great power based upon their ancenstors persecution by the Valayrians.  They may not be necessarily working in perfect harmony.  We know that "Pate" in ADWD is a FM who is spying on Archmaester Marwin, who seems to be the sole maester of any real importance who is studying or thinking about magic and dragons.  Another of the "big picture battles" is over the existential threat brought about by the Others.  Most of the world scoffs of the idea that this is truly a threat.  However, some factions, most notably the Red Priests of R'hllor and the Night's Watch, know that the Others and the true threat to the Realm and the world and will use any means to defeat them.  These factions are all working at un-coordinated cross-purposes instead of working together.  I don't think it is a surprise that there are connections through the Starks to (1) The Night's Watch - Jon (2) Braavos - Arya (3) The citadel - Sam.  I'm sure at some point Dany and her dragons factor into the defeat of the Others and she's connected to Jon through blood relation (R+L=J).  I also think Tyrion winds up as Dany's Hand, and he's got a realtionship to Jon from his visit to the Wall.  In essence, Jon, Jon's favorite sibling (Arya), his best friend (Sam) and his cousin (Dany) are the connections to the story's conclusion.

This is good, and kind of brings up a question.  We know from the prologue to AFFC that Jaqen may have been involved in Pate's murder and taking one of the Key's to the Citadel.  Now whether or not it is really Jaqen is hard to determine, however my suspicion is that it very well could be.  That aside, it appears very reasonable to assume that the House of Black and White is definately involved in this regard--if indeed it isn't Jaqen but some other individual that belongs to their order.  What is going on here?  Why is the House of Black and White involved in this?  Are they trying to stop the Citadel from interfering with Dany's dragons?  If so, that would align with a lot of Varys and Illyro's actions up to now.  Are they also trying to ensure that Dany ascends to the Iron Throne? I really can't wait until Winds to find out how some of these plot lines are cleared up.  It was clear from ADWD, at least for the Stark kids, that a main theme was "training."  Both Bran and Arya were being put through a training regimen.

I feel that there is some sort of connection between Bloodraven, the children, the old gods, and the House of Black and White.  This connection is more suspicion because I don't have much to back this up other than the Bran chapter when he first meets Brynden. Everything is Black and White, the cave, the shadows, and even Bloodraven.  His garb, his skin, his hair--and we know the priests are garbed half black and half white.  I suspect that the House of Black and White has a much larger role in the overall ASOIAF than is let on in the earlier books.

You are missing a main connection in your reply above.  Brandon Stark.  I believe he can be connected to (1) Nights Watch--Jon, (2) Winterfell (future Warden of the North--suspicion), (3) Arya--as I said before I think Bran will try to contact Arya in one way or another, (4) Danerys and the Dragons--i think he'll use his uber-Warg ability to help control one or more of the dragons, perhaps Drogon, (5) COF and the Old Gods.  You can obviously tell that I don't put much into the theory that Bran is the Great Other.  I do think he is some version of the Last Hero.

Thoughts?

[Bastard of the White Knife]

rickard, on 23 March 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

This is good, and kind of brings up a question.  We know from the prologue to AFFC that Jaqen may have been involved in Pate's murder and taking one of the Key's to the Citadel.  Now whether or not it is really Jaqen is hard to determine, however my suspicion is that it very well could be.  That aside, it appears very reasonable to assume that the House of Black and White is definately involved in this regard--if indeed it isn't Jaqen but some other individual that belongs to their order.  What is going on here?  Why is the House of Black and White involved in this?  Are they trying to stop the Citadel from interfering with Dany's dragons?  If so, that would align with a lot of Varys and Illyro's actions up to now.  Are they also trying to ensure that Dany ascends to the Iron Throne? I really can't wait until Winds to find out how some of these plot lines are cleared up.  It was clear from ADWD, at least for the Stark kids, that a main theme was "training."  Both Bran and Arya were being put through a training regimen.

I feel that there is some sort of connection between Bloodraven, the children, the old gods, and the House of Black and White.  This connection is more suspicion because I don't have much to back this up other than the Bran chapter when he first meets Brynden. Everything is Black and White, the cave, the shadows, and even Bloodraven.  His garb, his skin, his hair--and we know the priests are garbed half black and half white.  I suspect that the House of Black and White has a much larger role in the overall ASOIAF than is let on in the earlier books.

You are missing a main connection in your reply above.  Brandon Stark.  I believe he can be connected to (1) Nights Watch--Jon, (2) Winterfell (future Warden of the North--suspicion), (3) Arya--as I said before I think Bran will try to contact Arya in one way or another, (4) Danerys and the Dragons--i think he'll use his uber-Warg ability to help control one or more of the dragons, perhaps Drogon, (5) COF and the Old Gods.  You can obviously tell that I don't put much into the theory that Bran is the Great Other.  I do think he is some version of the Last Hero.

Thoughts?

I think BR, COF and the old gods are clearly connected.  I don't think the House of Black and White is connected because the Kindly Man's description of it's origins traces back to the old Valaryian empire - which only began a few thousands years before.  The Old Gods have been worshiped for 8,000 plus years and maybe much longer.  The weirwood doors in the House of Black and White aren't living trees - central to the old gods.

I don't think the FM are trying to stop the citadel from interfering with Dany's dragons.  I think they are working, in an uncoordinated manner, to the same purpose.  I think "Pate" is spying and reporting back because the FM want to know what is going on and the citadel is the greatest source of information in the world.  My theory is that the Maesters basically killed off the last dragons (GRRM has all but implied this) and that the Braavosi were thrilled to see them go based upon the Valaryians having used them to rule in a cruel manner for thousands of years.  As to how Varys/Illyrio play into this, I honestly have no idea.  Maybe the view is that if Dany had her dragons hatch, her power would bring lasting peace as did Aegon the Conquerer.  Maybe they knew these eggs would hatch?  If Illyrio and Varys are anti-magic and/or dragons, why would they give Dany any dragon eggs, even if there was on a .01% chance she would hatch them?  There is much and more unknown about their plots.

[Daario]

rickard, on 21 March 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

I also had a follow up idea:

We know from "The Ugly Little Girl" chapter in ADWD (and several others even in AFFC) that the House of Black and White has weirwood chairs, doors, and even an idol.  Since Bran can see through weirwood trees (does he see through the faces in the weirwoods?) will he be able to eventually locate Arya in the House of Black and White using one or several of the weirwood faces that are in there?  Or does it only work for living weirwoods?  Are any of the weirwoods in the House of Black and White alive?

If Bran can use the weirwoods in the House of Black and White I think he will try to communicate with Arya somehow and get her to return to Westeros where she will be reunited with Nymeria.

I thought of this also, although it seems a little obvious (as if GRRM put in Weirwood chairs for a laugh knowing where it might lead some people)
but this from Bloodraven in the Bran chapter in ADWD

'The Singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use...but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves'

Is this a hint that Bran may be able to see through Weirwood faces carved of dead Weirwood eventually?
Will he see Arya and attempt to contact her?

[benk]

I also think that Varys was trained at the House of Black and White--from the descriptions of some of his costumes, people seem mystified at how he changed his face, the similarity of his "little birds" to the spying that Arya is sent to do, and his navigation through the chambers.

Some of you are giving a lot of credence to Vary's own story which is not verified by any other character.

I have nothing to back this up, but I'm guessing that Varys was asked to sacrifice his manhood  the way Arya was asked to sacrifice her personality and belongings to join thehouse of Black and White.