429 replies to this topic

[Towel]

PrinceHenryris, on 20 March 2012 - 08:27 AM, said:

I didn't get to these boards until 2011, so I've probably missed a lot, but since I've been here, it seems like Dany gets a huge amount of the hate.

You would be wrong. They get hated on daily.

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

Can't work out if that OP is just one massive troll. How many of those points are absolute rubbish and to list the trials Dany's been through and then make out shes a bad character because she passed them is rubbish. You could write a statement like that for any character, "Jojen and Meera just happened to show up at Winterfell, and Jojen just happened to have a dream about Bran & also knew how to get to the wall).

I also can't work out if you've not got parts of the story or are ingnoring them to help your point but the disease immunity is the bigegst example. Nowhere do we find out she is immune to diseases. She thinks to herself she'd doesn't remember being ill therefore must be imune in her eyes - thats a targ thing to do and we've had a lot of pages establishing this trait. Not to mention at the end of ADWD she is clealy ill, be it from Pale Mare, miscarriage or poison berrys she still experiences ill symptoms.

12) They didn't come able to "detect dragon" one of Dany's outriders came back with them. She'd sent them out to scout IIRC. Her brother died stupidly because it was part of his character, the tension builds up throughout the book building up the confrontation which is a direct result of him feeling sidelined in favour of the half-targ Dothraki in Dany's womb.

I can't be bothered to go through every point but they all have similar problems where you ignore the actual circumstances of the event and don't consider that the outcome was not the best outcome for Dany or even in her favour.

Dany has her problems and annoyed me like everyone else in ADWD but none of these points touch them and are all quite frankly a load of cobblers.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

I'm no Dany fan, but I do think she has a good story. Your list is very long, but a couple of points to make note of are that Dany is not immune to fire and disease, she just thinks she is. Which is something that sets her up as a potentially insane egomaniac, not a Mary Sue. A lot of the other points...I feel like you could make a list like this for any character in the series if you wanted to. You've got some things that are factually inaccurate, and other things you just omit. (Brown Ben Plumm is the one who betrays her, and Daario is the one she sleeps with, they are not one in the same / three people don't appear to her in Vaes Tolorro because of 'dragon detectors,' she sends out riders, one of them brings those people back from Qarth / she doesn't just happen by luck to arrive at the city that sells Unsullied, she sails to Astapor / she doesn't magically take Yunkai without casualties, she passes them by when they agree to free their slaves, and this does come back to bite her in a big way).

A lot of people have a problem with the dragons. I don't. People think she didn't earn them, but I don't really care about that. She walked into a fire and pulled off an ancient dragon hatching spell, earning doesn't enter into it, it's just what she did. Who deserves what is not what the books are about. I thought it was a great moment. Not totally unexpected, but the magical element in the books ticked up a peg. I enjoy the magical elements in these books, and I like that the are kept subtle, limited, and mysterious. GRRM has established the dragons as an apparent source of magic in the world, but he has not established magic as a win card or even a good thing. Magic remains something to be feared (and possibly the thing that needs to be defeated).

If the dragons were instant-win, I would not like them so much. But I think they have been written with very real limitations, and in a way that defines Dany's character. All they have done so far is kill people, that's all they can ever do. She can use them only to destroy, but she can't use them to rule. Her time in Slaver's Bay has been a complete failure and ultimately pure destruction. I think that is the path she is on, turning into a full-fledged conqueror and destroyer, abandoning all of her pretensions of good-intent. For all the benefit her dragons can provide her in terms of power, they can't make her into a wise and benevolent ruler. I don't like Dany, but I think she makes a great villain and I have no problem with the way she is written as a character. And I've heard enough of her story that I don't think I'll every be able to truly hate her.

[Light a wight tonight]

PrinceHenryris, on 20 March 2012 - 08:27 AM, said:

I didn't get to these boards until 2011, so I've probably missed a lot, but since I've been here, it seems like Dany gets a huge amount of the hate.

I just joined the forum this year and I've seen how both Sansa and Cersei get dumped on. Dany seems to have a lot of fans while Cersei has almost none and it's pretty balanced for Sansa, in a sort of extreme fashion.

[Lizaveta Martell]

It seems that the OP is upset about there being magic.  Dany is apparently likable, attractive and disproportionately magical.  Sorry, it's a fantasy novel. Too bad!

[Val the Wildling Princess]

jarl the climber, on 20 March 2012 - 09:01 AM, said:

She in Danerys Stormborn, Breaker of Chains, Khaleesi, the Unburnt, Mother of Dragons, rightful Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men, deal with it.

Is not like she makes it easy to forget by the way, after the last chapter of ADWD she should remove the Unburnt from the list

[Towel]

"unburnt but singed"?

[Lyanna Stark]

Val the Wildling Princess, on 20 March 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

Is not like she makes it easy to forget by the way, after the last chapter of ADWD she should remove the Unburnt from the list

That's the point tho. Which way on the Targ crazy/genius scale will Dany swing? After all, her own father started out ok:ish, but turned bonkers towards the end. We don't have *any* guarantees that Dany won't too. We have only seen her own chapters before, but once we get more PoVs describing her....well, she's not so snow white and so amazing, is she? And what if she is also going bonkers, like Aerys?

She will have choices to make which will either turn her onto a path more like Rhaegar's, or one more like Aerys. She was set up to be the heroine and all sorts of stuff, but then Ned was the main protagonist in AGOT and we have seen how well that worked out for him. Maybe Dany will fail the invasion and the dragons will pass to Jon or Aegon. Who knows?

[BabyMeraxes]

Ooo, Girl. You mad, huh?

Whatever, whatever, but I think a lot of the Dany/Cat hate I see on this forum stems from people (mostly dudes) who feel challenged by reading about a strong female in a position of power/authority. All this character undermining with shit like, "DANY IS A BRAT" "WHY DOESN'T SHE FIGHT" "SHE'S A SLUT FOR LIKING DAARIO" while mind-boggling to some extent, is never surprising. Especially considering this genera (the war narrative) is usually dominated by violent, aggressive uber-masculine protagonists. Dany and Cat and Brienne and Arya and Sansa and Asha and (to a lesser extent) Arianne are an awesome way to subvert that trope, and they are the characters I enjoy reading about the most. At the end of the day, I couldn't give two shits if you like reading about Dany (books are first and foremost a personal form of media), and it's not my job to convince you of her value, but I will say that I think you're missing out.

Sorry 'bout it.

[CC-Kingmaker]

OnionAhaiReborn, that is an interesting point. As a hero, Dany is clearly flawed in her approach and the good things that happen to her. However, its her expectations and the failures that result from them are where her problems are. To most everyone but her, she is the villain. She tries to be helpful and be the best queen, but everything, especially the dragons blow up in her face. She is Dr. Doom from Marvel in a sense, all she wants is to connect with her past and fulfill her intentions, yet she is painted as a monster for her failures, by fire blowing up in her face. Personally, this series is not ordinary, so I fail to believe that Dany will arrive like some heroine and save the day. Its clear she is not the best option for Westeros, but she is definitely a major key to the puzzle. I like what she can add.

However, I do agree, the crap that occurs in Meereen is mostly boring and uneventful politicking. Meereen is clearly a step and not the place of eventfulness. Daenerys has more left in store. Also, the author avoids mostly physical harm for Dany, but Essos is clearly something that blew up in her face. All that she wanted, collapsed.

[Lyanna Stark]

BabyMeraxes, on 20 March 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

Ooo, Girl. You mad, huh?

Whatever, whatever, but I think a lot of the Dany/Cat hate I see on this forum stems from people (mostly dudes) who feel challenged by reading about a strong female in a position of power/authority. All this character undermining with shit like, "DANY IS A BRAT" "WHY DOESN'T SHE FIGHT" "SHE'S A SLUT FOR LIKING DAARIO" while mind-boggling to some extent, is never surprising. Especially considering this genera (the war narrative) is usually dominated by violent, aggressive uber-masculine protagonists. Dany and Cat and Brienne and Arya and Sansa and Asha and (to a lesser extent) Arianne are an awesome way to subvert that trope, and they are the characters I enjoy reading about the most. At the end of the day, I couldn't give two shits if you like reading about Dany (books are first and foremost a personal form of media), and it's not my job to convince you of her value, but I will say that I think you're missing out.

Sorry 'bout it.

Tbh just save this in a word document and copy paste it in every "OMG AI HATE DANY SOO MUCH SHE IS A SLUTTT!" threads.

Would save us all some future headache.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

You forgot about how there was no attempt whatsoever to try and take Dany's dragons by force both in Qarth and Astapor.

[BabyMeraxes]

Lyanna Stark, on 20 March 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

Tbh just save this in a word document and copy paste it in every "OMG AI HATE DANY SOO MUCH SHE IS A SLUTTT!" threads.

Would save us all some future headache.

Done and done

[The Swaggering Bravo]

BabyMeraxes, on 20 March 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

Ooo, Girl. You mad, huh?

Whatever, whatever, but I think a lot of the Dany/Cat hate I see on this forum stems from people (mostly dudes) who feel challenged by reading about a strong female in a position of power/authority. All this character undermining with shit like, "DANY IS A BRAT" "WHY DOESN'T SHE FIGHT" "SHE'S A SLUT FOR LIKING DAARIO" while mind-boggling to some extent, is never surprising. Especially considering this genera (the war narrative) is usually dominated by violent, aggressive uber-masculine protagonists. Dany and Cat and Brienne and Arya and Sansa and Asha and (to a lesser extent) Arianne are an awesome way to subvert that trope, and they are the characters I enjoy reading about the most. At the end of the day, I couldn't give two shits if you like reading about Dany (books are first and foremost a personal form of media), and it's not my job to convince you of her value, but I will say that I think you're missing out.

Sorry 'bout it.

How unsurprising, don't like Dany = Sexist!

I like Catelyn, Asha, and Cersei does have her moments. But Dany is intolerable.

[Towel]

So im in the minority for thinkng she's a typical literary female, but yet transcends gender?

Daaammmnnniiiiiiiiiiiiittttttt

[Lyanna Stark]

BabyMeraxes, on 20 March 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

Done and done

Awesome!  

I remember being the most baffled by someone who claimed she shouldn't have shagged Daario because "he is so ugly", and I went like WTF? Just imagine Captain Jack Sparrow with bluish hair and that's basically Daario. He might be untrustworthy as hell, but he is one sexy BAMF all the same.

[Lady Octarina]

Well, I agree with most of your points, except that she isn't immune to fire and diseases, she just stupidly believes in that (which makes me wish for her downfall to be either becoming a barbecue for dear Drogon or getting greyscale as soon as she lands in Westeros). Yes, she is the most annoying Mary Sue I've ever found in a good book (and people complain bout Jon Snow... really), but if you think about it, no one has an easy life in Martin's books. Her POV leads us to believe she actually suffered through all this, but you're right, she had it easier than most characters...

... which leads me to believe that when she finally falls, it will be much uglier than what happened to the rest of them. Oh, how sweet it shall be, when her skin turns into stone or ashes!

Edited by Lady Octarina, 20 March 2012 - 10:06 AM.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

Lyanna Stark, on 20 March 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

That's the point tho. Which way on the Targ crazy/genius scale will Dany swing? After all, her own father started out ok:ish, but turned bonkers towards the end. We don't have *any* guarantees that Dany won't too. We have only seen her own chapters before, but once we get more PoVs describing her....well, she's not so snow white and so amazing, is she? And what if she is also going bonkers, like Aerys?

She will have choices to make which will either turn her onto a path more like Rhaegar's, or one more like Aerys. She was set up to be the heroine and all sorts of stuff, but then Ned was the main protagonist in AGOT and we have seen how well that worked out for him. Maybe Dany will fail the invasion and the dragons will pass to Jon or Aegon. Who knows?

If you ask me I think she is going down the path to end eventually mad as her freaking father, all that crap about visions, prophecies, betrayals, I get a strong Anakin Skywalker vibe from her. And I agree that people (not me, I've never really liked her or cared about her, I find her boring from the beginning, dragons or not) liked her more when the only POV's we got about her were her own, as soon as they started seeing her from other people POV (Barristan) a lot of people changed their minds.

The Swaggering Bravo, on 20 March 2012 - 09:48 AM, said:

How unsurprising, don't like Dany = Sexist!

I like Catelyn, Asha, and Cersei does have her moments. But Dany is intolerable.

That's a common stupid argument that I dread in this fandom. You don't like a woman= you're sexist. Yeah, I'm a woman and I hate women because they are women, that makes a lot of sense, whatever. Maybe I'm weird but I empathize with the characters despite their genre, I usually empathize with characters I consider good people, men or women, I dont care. There are a lot of awesome women in ASOIAF that I love, Daenerys is not one of them, sorry, if someone can't deal with it it's their problem not mine.

Once again, edited for crimes against english language.

Edited by Val the Wildling Princess, 20 March 2012 - 10:05 AM.

[Vandalism]

Okay, 1, 5 and 6 were totally right and I agree wholly with them. The rest of the points are not really negatives about Danaerys' character, but rather you showing your impressive observation skills (bet you can't tell whether that's an insult or not, heh).

Dany is a well developed character, and all her negatives are intentionally written. So, if you're disliking her based on character quality, then you may well be wrong. However, if you dislike her as a person like I do (although I really started disliking her in ADWD due to Meereen and all that nonsense), you are right because people have their tastes.

Dany becomes tough from living by the Dothraki way. She gains mental toughness by having to endure those nights being ass-raped by her not-yet-lover Drogo and discovers how to feel for the weak people, like the Lhazareen, when they get beaten up.

So, there's the development of toughness.

Now, for her romance with Drogo: I dislike it. I find it rather barbaric, thanks to all the doggy-style in there. And I knew that Drogo's ways are purely due to his culture, but the fact that Dany develops true feelings for a guy like him bothers me.

Dany's lack of open mindedness with regards to her House or family is very annoying. She asks Ser Barristan about whether her father was mad or not, then says she would not like the answer he thinks he has. Honestly, accept it.

About Viserys doing one majorly stupid thing and then dying for it, I really disliked the scene in both book and TV Show. I mean, Dany did not even shed a tear about it, and it took her a whole 4 books to even start paying some sort of homage to the unlucky man that her brother was.

What is it with all Westeros sisters being such bitches. minus the Starks? Okay Dany was not bad to Viserys, but come on, no grief for such a long time?

Anyhow, I'd like to add one other thing. Dany gives me the impression that she is (slightly) sexist. Whenever we have a scene where she's brooding and thinking about all the injustice in the world or when she helps a needy person, the victim of injustice is a woman. She thinks about helping women, and discourages Drogo from raping women while she doesn't really do anything that extreme for the men.

[butterbumps!]

@Blue-eyed Onion

I wonder if a lot of what you're describing as problematic for you is the fact that we only see her story through her own POV.  It was brought up in another Dany thread that Dany seems so cosmically blessed, because we don't have an honest/ objective in-world character that "sets us straight," so to speak, nor do we have any significant character whose opinion we trust call her out in her own POV.  What we do see is that characters are moving toward her in the plot, which seems like she has all of this in-world support that she did little to "earn," but I suspect that everyone making their way toward her for an "alliance" actually plans to use her (either her "Targness" or her dragons) for their own ends.

I think that's why a lot of us are anticipating the clash between Tyrion/ Dany for this reason: to give a no-nonsense point of view to Dany's character and to her abilities as a ruler.   I know there's a lot of desire to see Queen Dany and King Jon get married and have ten thousand babies, with Tyrion as their loyal Hand and Jaime tucking into a Cersei pie or whatever.   But I don't think it's going that way, if that makes you feel better.   In fact, I wonder if Tyrion will actually agree to serve her if she doesn't revise some of her ways, and I suspect that if he does anyway, that he has his own endgame in all this, which probably has little to do with his genuinely wanting to see her rule.