429 replies to this topic

[eyeheartsansa]

The OP isn't actually calling Dany a "cheater" though; he/she is saying that GRRM is cheating by making things too easy for Dany, by giving her plot armor and letting her triumph against insurmountable odds, etc.

[Ser Lepus]

The Swaggering Bravo, on 20 March 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

Exactly, she could have been cruel and effective while being feared, or completely lenient and compassionate while making attempts to have them love her. Instead she remains indecisive and works both directions, each time she changes her position it completely undos what she attempted previously. All of this makes me wonder if there are even people in this world who are moral, then I remember that Catelyn was probably the most moral in the series. Seriously, she even tried to convince Renly to have the people of Westeros choose who to rule and to bring Bran to a jury to dictate whether the Lannisters were guilty or no. Dany's sense of justice reflects undead Catelyn, which says a lot.

She arrived as a conqueror who took their cities by force of arms and forced them to change their ways at swordpoint; being loved is not feasible; even if a few could eventually come to like her after a few years of compassionate rule, she should realize that she will always be a foreign opressor for most of the population...
Dany has to do the thing Tywin´s / Gengis Khan´s way, or not at all, in Slaver´s Bay.

[Solmyr]

The Swaggering Bravo, on 20 March 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

Solmyr, no, we've hated her since Clash. And we don't love to hate her either, we simply despise most anything about her.

Odd, I don't remember there being many Dany-bashing threads after clash came out. Or after ASoS. I don't know who do you mean by "we", but the great majority of Dany-haters have emerged after Dance. For sure there were some who probably hated her from the very first page - nothing I can do about them. There are even people who hate the whole series. And there are people who hate to bathe irl.

[redriver]

If we have this amount of debate about a character,she must be a well written character.
She is very human,with all the wants,needs,desires and vulnerabilities of a young woman,in extraordinary circumstances.

Yes,some of the Mereen chapters are hard going.But most of the major POV's have gone through a like/hate type of arc-Jaime,Sansa,Theon to mention a few.

Her last chapter,when she was on her own,showed her in a better light imo.

The Astopor chapter with the nasty Unsullied seller was very satisfying.

Edited by redriver, 20 March 2012 - 08:04 PM.

[ElizaMartell]

PrinceHenryris, on 20 March 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

I'll never understand why there's so much Dany hate on this forum. Especially when Cat and Sansa are given a pass so often.

Are you kidding me? Cat and Sansa get hated on for things I didn't think people could possibly be hated on.  And I joined this forum in January.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

Solmyr, on 20 March 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

Odd, I don't remember there being many Dany-bashing threads after clash came out. Or after ASoS. I don't know who do you mean by "we", but the great majority of Dany-haters have emerged after Dance. For sure there were some who probably hated her from the very first page - nothing I can do about them. There are even people who hate the whole series. And there are people who hate to bathe irl.

I don't understand your point in the last two sentences at all. How juvenile, anyone can take someone's position and do that. "You like Dany, hm, nothing I can do about them, there are people who insisted that any criticicism directed towards her is founded by envy and jealousy of her doing so well compared to other characters. There are even people who like to murder irl." Yet that accomplishes nothing.

[Noimporta]

"Dany/Catelyn/Jon/Hotpie haters/fanboys" don't exist in the amorphous, homogeneous blob-like existence some people seem to assign to them. Individual users, individual opinions.

[Jaehaerys Sand]

The Swaggering Bravo, on 20 March 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:

So if back in the day I attached a string to a quarter and put it into a vending machine, only to pull it right back out and take the candy, it isn't theft because I "went through with the transaction"?

No, you misunderstand me. Dany didn't really have a peace agreement with the slavers going before the attack, so she didn't technically break one. The slavers, as a business, did.

Edited by Jaehaerys Sand, 20 March 2012 - 08:20 PM.

[eyeheartsansa]

Noimporta, on 20 March 2012 - 08:16 PM, said:

"Dany/Catelyn/Jon/Hotpie haters/fanboys" don't exist in the amorphous, homogeneous b.lob-like existence some people seem to assign to them. Individual users, individual opinions.

Post of the day!  I've been trying to find the words to say this for a long long time

Edited by eyeheartsansa, 20 March 2012 - 08:27 PM.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

Jaehaerys Sand, on 20 March 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

No, you misunderstand me. Dany didn't really have a peace agreement with the slavers going before the attack, so she didn't technically break one. The slavers, as a business, did.

How are the Slavers now the ones who broke an agreement?

[Lady Octarina]

It seems I stayed away for this thread for too long (I wouldn't be surprised if it reached 400 posts until tomorrow), but bear with me and allow me to answer a few things, even if late.

PatrickStormborn, on 20 March 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

Asha and Arya have masculine qualities. If someone hates ALL of the feminine female characters and only likes female characters who have male characteristics, then I believe they're probably somewhat misogynistic.

I still can't agree with your assessment; might be because I dislike Catelyn simply for how she treated Jon (but still liked to read her chapters, as I like to read Daenerys'), and hate Daenerys because I feel cheated (hell! I actually wanted her to get the throne at first! until she proved to be just another crazy tyrant) - that is, I dislike them for specific actions, not for more manly or womanly qualities. Or maybe I don't get your point because I only like a character (I'm not counting the fascination you can feel for a character here, only a personal liking) when I feel I can relate to them, when I can see a part of myself in them somehow, be them male or female characters. Which is why I could do nothing but detest Sansa when she was her deluded self, but as soon as her fairy-tale world crumbled, well... I could certainly relate to that.

And also, everything Apple Martini said in #129 ^.^

Lyanna Stark, on 20 March 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

You are barking up the wrong tree. If you seriously claim that attributes like strength, willingness to fight physically and bucking of social mores are not known as traditionally male characteristics, then I have to wonder what you base that on? Having read my Simone de Beauvoir back to front a few times, I can safely say that she defines traditionally male traits like the ones you just did above as you guessed it: traditionally male traits, or attributes associated with masculinity.

I can only speak for myself, but I agree with Apple Martini's post that you answered here. I am no feminist, but no misogynist either, but I simply can't see how those characteristics can be considered male, and others related to sensibility female. Might be a generational thing, but what I usually see is the opposite. Either way, I really can't classify characteristics that way, but if your point and Patrick's is that people do that, then fine, I agree, most people do, yet I disagree with the conclusions you take from it on this board.

PatrickStormborn, on 20 March 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

Sigh. ALL the Great Masters are guilty of being slavers. She decided that crucifying 163 of them would be a symbolic gesture. They were lucky that she didn't just wipe them out completely. Was it justice? Well, it wouldn't be in 21st Century Western societies. But this is a medieval, pre-Industrial Revolution time period, so "an eye for an eye" is as close to justice as it gets.

The problem is... it isn't. We see plenty of other characters apply justice in the same world, and their justice is nothing like that. Okay, she's in Slaver's Bay, things may be different around there, you might even say she is adapting to their culture. The problem is, she intends to go to Westeros, and with that mentality? Seriously? I am looking forward for that!

butterbumps!, on 20 March 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

So, at least for me, it's not that she was forceful or "badass" as it were, but that she didn't apply either justice or force in a way that seemed fitting or strategic. I've told myself "ok, she's a teenager, she is not to be expected to make flawless decisions, understand justice, the responsibilities of ruling, was never taught statecraft, doesn't want to face certain ugly truths, etc," but then I think, "ok, well maybe she ought not assume these responsibilities in the first place."

And I really want to see what will be the outcome of all that.

The Swaggering Bravo, on 20 March 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

Solmyr, no, we've hated her since Clash. And we don't love to hate her either, we simply despise most anything about her.

True. I love to hate Theon, but I hate to hate Daenerys, I really wanted to like her once more...
___

As for this discussion about her sexuality, well, I really couldn't care less about who anyone sleeps with on this series. I don't condemn her for sleeping with Daario, but I think she's very stupid to forget to listen to that little voice telling her not to trust him, not to fall for him. But again, we all were 15 once, we all went through similar situations... The only character I can actually condemn based on sexual behavior is Robert - really? Fuck the whole kingdom instead of ruling it? Rubbing it in your wife's face, and her brother's? The man was asking to be killed...

And I agree with those who said that the amount of hate (and I would add of love as well) Daenerys gets is an evidence to how well Martin has written her, otherwise we'd probably just ignore her existence and go bash another character.

Seriously, some decent researcher should come to these boards and make a serious sociological research on these discussions, especially on the threads about Daenerys (and I gotta say, this one is the best in terms of serious discussion I've seen so far). I would suggest noting how posters are divided between three clear parties: you just have to see who likes whose posts, and who posts but likes none of the others.

[DornishKnight]

Noimporta, on 20 March 2012 - 08:16 PM, said:

"Dany/Catelyn/Jon/Hotpie haters/fanboys" don't exist in the amorphous, homogeneous blob-like existence some people seem to assign to them. Individual users, individual opinions.

Amen.

I liked Dany after ASOS.  Her plot in ADWD went nowhere and it went nowhere because of her decisions. That's when I started to dislike her; she can still win me back, though (I still see her as the final villain, and I look forward to it).

[Carey Snow]

Dany was sold as basically a sex slave, lost her love and unborn baby, had to lock her dragons in a dungeon because she does not know how to train them, was betrayed by the only person she trusted (Jorah), was beaten by her brother, lost her dothraki army, married some guy she could not stand.......

Yes a few things have gone her way (the unsullied come to mind) and I totally agree that she muffed up the Meereen rule, but the Dany hate is unreal. She has had plenty of setbacks and she is by no means a lock to rule Westeros. Heck, there is a chance she will be enslaved by the Dothraki or Euron's/Victorian's horn.

Dany is a great character in my opinion.

[DornishKnight]

Quote

The problem is... it isn't. We see plenty of other characters apply justice in the same world, and their justice is nothing like that. Okay, she's in Slaver's Bay, things may be different around there, you might even say she is adapting to their culture. The problem is, she intends to go to Westeros, and with that mentality? Seriously? I am looking forward for that!




And I really want to see what will be the outcome of all that.

http://asoiaf.wester...oing-with-dany/
This should give an idea.

[Apple Martini]

The Swaggering Bravo, on 20 March 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

How are the Slavers now the ones who broke an agreement?

They aren't. I have no idea what he's talking about. The slavers took the payment and gave Dany control over the Unsullied. Their only mistake was not waiting to make sure Drogon was completely in hand before handing over control. But that benefited Dany, not them.

DornishKnight, on 20 March 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

(I still see her as the final villain, and I look forward to it).

I don't really know for sure that that's where it's really heading, but based on what Tze's pointed out — that Martin is actually showing us how ineffective Dany is — and the pattern for character shifts — villains becoming heroes and vice versa — it would not surprise me at all and it would be a hell of a shocker if that's how it ended up.

Edited by Apple Martini, 20 March 2012 - 08:55 PM.

[The King in the South]

eyeheartsansa, on 20 March 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

The OP isn't actually calling Dany a "cheater" though; he/she is saying that GRRM is cheating by making things too easy for Dany, by giving her plot armor and letting her triumph against insurmountable odds, etc.

You could say the same things about
Jon, Arya, Bran, Stannis, etc

This is just another "wahhh I hate Daenarys thread" without any real explanation or though to back it up. Instead it's (the OP that is) just a bunch of half-assed points of which a majority are debatable.

[Winter's Knight]

The King in the South, on 20 March 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:

You could say the same things about
Jon, Arya, Bran, Stannis, etc

This is just another "wahhh I hate Daenarys thread" without any real explanation or though to back it up. Instead it's (the OP that is) just a bunch of half-assed points of which a majority are debatable.

Fortunately, other posters have been able to come up with better arguments both for and against.

[Jon Flowers]

The King in the South, on 20 March 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:

You could say the same things about
Jon, Arya, Bran, Stannis, etc

This is just another "wahhh I hate Daenarys thread" without any real explanation or though to back it up. Instead it's (the OP that is) just a bunch of half-assed points of which a majority are debatable.

I wouldn't say that I was convinced by the original post, but to say that it had no real explanation isn't accurate at all.  It most certainly did.  And that's a pretty insulting way that you characterized the person writing the post as well.  I'm not sure where that came from or why it was necesary.

Edited by Jon Flowers, 20 March 2012 - 09:41 PM.

[Carey Snow]

Jon Flowers, on 20 March 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

I wouldn't say that I was convinced by the original post, but to say that it had no real explanation isn't accurate at all.  It most certainly did.  And that's a pretty insulting way that you characterized the person writing the post as well.  I'm not sure where that came from or why it was necesary.

Probably because this forum can not go two weeks without a "We Hate Dany" thread. Dany is by far the most polarizing character in this series.

[Jory]

Jaehaerys Sand, on 20 March 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

There is a technical difference. Dany did pay for the unsullied, but then she immediately declared war and took everything back. She didn't need to continue to 'do business' with anyone. Since she technically went through with the transaction, she didn't fully sell out her diplomacy.

You can't honestly think this is a convincing line of argument.