429 replies to this topic

[Apple Martini]

Kittyhat, on 21 April 2012 - 01:59 AM, said:

And we have people saying it of Stannis, too.  And there's the part with Melisandre seeing "only snow" that hints that Jon Snow is really Azor Ahai.  People say a lot of things in ASOIAF.

I'd kind of like it if Dany really were AA reborn, but I'm not at all certain that's really the situation.

We know even within the story that it isn't really Stannis. And despite what Melisandre sees, no one has hit upon Jon yet, if they ever will.

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Sooo ... to be a source of your ire, a character needs to be believed by someone to be a magical savior of mankind? Okay, then you need to remember to hate Stannis for sure and possibly Aegon going forward (we'll see).  There aren't many characters being accused of being saviors yet, but then there also aren't many people aware there's a threat that would call for such a savior, so that's more a consequence of the ignorance of most people of what's coming.

Nope. You complained that Dany is held to a higher standard, and I said that's because she's pegged as, basically, the Westerosi Jesus, and she thinks of herself as being righteous and correct. I don't hate Stannis, but I recognize his faults, sure — namely, he's too severe, too rigid, uncompromising and a giant curmudgeon. I'd still rather see him on the throne than Dany, but gender has eff all to do with it — he's really the only would-be king taking the Others seriously, and he's earning the North's loyalty the hard way. And Aegon seems to be just as big of a brat as his "aunt."

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Wait, I thought your chip was about her status as an alleged magical savior.  Now you're mad because a 13-year-old girl who was raised by an insane, abusive brother who intended to basically sell her in exchange for an army is a relatively inexperienced and naive ruler?  

A 13-year-old girl who doesn't know that she doesn't know anything. I'm not "mad" about anything. I just think she'd be a terrible ruler for Westeros.

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I noticed you backed out of any discussion of the Masters in this context right quick and in a hurry! xD

Not really, no. I haven't forgotten them, especially how Dany did absolutely nothing to prove individual guilt.

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As for the wineseller's daughters, you're taking that out of context.  Daenerys at this point is facing constant losses to what's basically a shadowy terrorism campaign against her within the city.  What she did there is right around the same moral plane as some of the things Tyrion's done, those little gray things that we're constantly giving him a pass on but that Dany DARE NOT DO.

And I wonder why there's a "shadowy terrorism campaign" in the city. Gee. Point is, she tortured innocent people out of frustration and spite, knowing she wouldn't get any information out of it. Does Tyrion do a lot of awful things too, of course. He also knows what he is — "I am a monster." Dany does downright nasty things but still convinces herself that she's in the right ("it was for the children") and to me that's far more dangerous. A lot of the scorn heaped on Dany comes because she convinces herself that she's right and that she doesn't need "lessons" or advice. If she recognized her inexperience (other than the "I am a young girl ..." ruse) or faced consequences when she screwed up (instead of literally flying away and leaving Barristan to clean up her mess), I think people would be more amiable to her. Jon summed it up pretty well: "They know nothing, and worse, they will not learn."

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Then you apparently never read A Storm of Swords, or if you did, you didn't pay very much attention.

Yeah, showing that she's completely untrustworthy and can't be negotiated with in good faith was a genius move. It's a bit rich that you're accusing me of not reading closely, seeing as you apparently missed the AA instances I mentioned, or had no idea what they meant.

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Relative to the main thrust of the story? Uh, YEAH.  Why do you think no one treats her winning it as a meaningful accomplishment of itself? It's not just that she's stuck in a wretched mess there ... the throne itself just isn't important really.

That remains to be seen. My point is, it's unfair and silly to use your own measurement of what's important to invalidate Asha's goals. She'd rather have the Seastone Chair than the Iron Throne, because that's who she is. Is she somehow "lesser" than Dany because of it?

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She's not a throwaway, but she's not and never was an aspirant to anything half so important or powerful.

That just means she's sane and not an egomaniac. You've never heard the phrase, "The people who want power are the ones who shouldn't have it"?

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Am I? It seems to me that Daenerys fundamentally, and uniquely, is redefining it.  Her rule, again uniquely, is decidedly maternal in nature.  She refers to her "children," and she means it, and she wants to nurture and protect them.

And yeah, she screws up.  And yes, she's not perfect.  And okay, she has a lot to learn.  But she's also had moments of brilliance far beyond her years and of heroism and compassion -- even when she fails, she TRIES to save people -- that you do her and the story a great disservice in ignoring just because they're inconvenient to your case and your anti-Dany crusade.

What makes her "worthy" in your eyes is apparently that she's actively (inactively?) seeking the Iron Throne, a decidedly masculine position. Is it a blow for women's rights if she gets to sit on it, or is she in fact no different from and no better than her batshit crazy relatives who also sat on it?

And she destroys everything she tries to save. Drogo, Eroeh, Rhaego, Doreah, Astapor, now Meereen. That's her tragedy.

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In fact, of all of the characters in the story, she's the most uniquely feminine heroine, a matriarch on a woman's terms.  And don't try defining her violence as masculine -- nothing is more terrible than a mother fighting for her children.

I'm not saying she herself isn't feminine. I'm saying that I have solid reasons — reasons many people share — for not wanting her to be in any control over Westeros, and that you're ignorant to think that sexism is at the root of any and all disapproval of her. Many people's reasons for liking her — including your own — I can understand even if I disagree with you. You clamping your hands over your ears and saying that it's only because she doesn't have a penis that anyone could oppose her pretty much kills whatever argument you might be trying to make.

Edited by Apple Martini, 21 April 2012 - 02:31 AM.

[Kittyhat]

Apple Martini, on 21 April 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

We know even within the story that it isn't really Stannis. And despite what Melisandre sees, no one has hit upon Jon yet, if they ever will.

But we still don't know within the story that it IS Dany, despite how you keep disingenuously trying to dance around between "the characters said it" and "the story said it," picking whichever one is most convenient at the moment.  What, you think I didn't notice?

And as for Jon, we've had it hinted to us rather strongly that it could be him.

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Nope. You complained that Dany is held to a higher standard, and I said that's because she's pegged as, basically, the Westerosi Jesus,

... according to some characters.  Which is the same thing that happens with Stannis, so let's just nip that line of thinking in the bud right now.  Again, you can't switch "the characters said it" around into "the story itself said it" whenever you like.

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and she thinks of herself as being righteous and correct.

She frequently shows signs of doubt.  She just tends to deal with it by pushing forward rather than dwelling.  "If I look back, I am lost."

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I don't hate Stannis, but I recognize his faults, sure — namely, he's too severe, too rigid, uncompromising and a giant curmudgeon.

And cold and unfeeling and lacks the ability to inspire anything in anyone.  Oh heavens, Stannis would be a better ruler than Joffrey, sure ... but that's only because Joffrey is was a complete monster.

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Not really, no. I haven't forgotten them, especially how Dany did absolutely nothing to prove individual guilt.

The Masters? What, you wanted her to hold individual trials? Heavens, they were guilty enough just being what they were.  This was war, not a tea party.

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Does Tyrion do a lot of awful things too, of course. He also knows what he is — "I am a monster."

He might tell himself he is, but he's really not.  He makes some brutal decisions sometimes, but he's a basically good guy doing the best he can in a really vicious, nasty world.

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Dany does downright nasty things but still convinces herself that she's in the right ("it was for the children")

Geez, picking nits much? "I did it for the children" is just her way of coping, and if anything it shows she doesn't feel all that okay with it if she has to stop and tell herself that just to steady herself.  Someone who really feels totally justified in an action, or who feels nothing at all, will not stop to reflect on it much or at all, much less try to justify it to herself.

You think Tyrion gets any more a free pass just because he tells himself he's a monster? Hell, that's almost more of a cop-out really.  "I'm a monster, so it's okay, because this is the kind of thing monsters do."

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faced consequences when she screwed up (instead of literally flying away and leaving Barristan to clean up her mess)

What, seriously? You're holding that against her, too? That situation was a dragon unexpectedly raging in the middle of an arena.  She acted on instinct doing really the best thing she could possibly have done in that situation, which happened to involve also flying away.

I'm starting to get a feeling for just how far out there your take on this whole thing really is ...

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Yeah, showing that she's completely untrustworthy and can't be negotiated with in good faith was a genius move.

Considering how much she gained compared with how little she lost (essentially nothing)? Yeah, I'd say it was.

"Warfare is the tao of deception."

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It's a bit rich that you're accusing me of not reading closely, seeing as you apparently missed the AA instances I mentioned, or had no idea what they meant.

More the latter.  You were referring to the story itself declaring Dany a savior, when what you were really talking about was some characters saying it (which, as I pointed out, happened with Stannis as well).  So of course I had no idea what you were talking about, since you were referencing something that never actually happened.

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What makes her "worthy" in your eyes is apparently that she's actively (inactively?) seeking the Iron Throne, a decidedly masculine position.

You mean because a man traditionally holds it? That may be so, but her rulership style is decidedly not masculine.

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And she destroys everything she tries to save. Drogo, Eroeh, Rhaego, Doreah, Astapor, now Meereen. That's her tragedy.

Bullsh*t.  She's also saved a lot of people, people who are still with us presently.  She's failed in some things and is currently in one hell of a mess, yes, but not everything she's tried to do has ended in abject failure.

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I'm not saying she herself isn't feminine. I'm saying that I have solid reasons — reasons many people share — for not wanting her to be in any control over Westeros, and that you're ignorant to think that sexism is at the root of any and all disapproval of her.

Not any and all, no ... but if she were male, I do believe she'd face a great deal less scorn.  Which is in fact what I said to begin with.

Edited by Kittyhat, 21 April 2012 - 03:01 AM.

[ManyFacedOne]

Apple Martini, on 21 April 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

He also knows what he is — "I am a monster." Dany does downright nasty things but still convinces herself that she's in the right ("it was for the children") and to me that's far more dangerous.

Dany does know she's a monster: "I am the blood of the dragon, she thought. If they are monsters, so am I."

This is right after she's accusing Stark of being a traitor when he joined in the rebellion, but she stops suddenly when she realizes what a hypocrite she's being. After all, she's exactly guilty of what she accusing him of doing. So I do think she knows when she's wrong. Also, when she's looking at the Masters while they're dying, she later tries to convince herself that it's justice, but that always rang hollow to me.

Kittyhat, on 21 April 2012 - 02:59 AM, said:

The Masters? What, you wanted her to hold individual trials? Heavens, they were guilty enough just being what they were.  This was war, not a tea party.

That wasn't war. The war was already won. That was mass murder. And who's to say she even got the right ones? She told them to give up 163 individuals. I'm guessing they just tossed her the most useless of the bunch.

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Not any and all, no ... but if she were male, I do believe she'd face a great deal less scorn.  Which is in fact what I said to begin with.

Why's that? Most of what people rail her for are her actions that Apple already brought up, all of which have nothing to do with her sex.

[LordofWinter]

BabyMeraxes, on 20 March 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

Ooo, Girl. You mad, huh?

Whatever, whatever, but I think a lot of the Dany/Cat hate I see on this forum stems from people (mostly dudes) who feel challenged by reading about a strong female in a position of power/authority. All this character undermining with shit like, "DANY IS A BRAT" "WHY DOESN'T SHE FIGHT" "SHE'S A SLUT FOR LIKING DAARIO" while mind-boggling to some extent, is never surprising. Especially considering this genera (the war narrative) is usually dominated by violent, aggressive uber-masculine protagonists. Dany and Cat and Brienne and Arya and Sansa and Asha and (to a lesser extent) Arianne are an awesome way to subvert that trope, and they are the characters I enjoy reading about the most. At the end of the day, I couldn't give two shits if you like reading about Dany (books are first and foremost a personal form of media), and it's not my job to convince you of her value, but I will say that I think you're missing out.

Sorry 'bout it.

the first thing i thought when i read the title of this thread was"let the accusations of sexism begin", the only reason i opened the thread was because i wanted to see how long it would take for someone to be called a sexist or misogynist. and thanks to you it only took a page and a half.

[LordofWinter]

eyeheartsansa, on 20 March 2012 - 10:31 PM, said:

  America is not exactly a villain to be despised..

.......um i believe there are at least a dozen countries in this world that would completely and whole-heartedly disagree. and i think you're right meereen was supposed to be representative of the war on iraq. here's how

1- the war started somewhere else, and didn't finish there either. (afganistan-astapor)
2- dany 'frees' meereen from their evil overlords(the harpy-suddam)
3- dany does what she feels is right despite what the people of meereen want (see the clusterf*** debacle that was the 'liberating the iraqi people' initiative)
4- while claiming how terrible and unfair life in meereen must be for the people of meereen before she got there, dany does nothing but bring pain and anguish to an entire country from the very moment she sets eyes upon it.
5-in the end when everything is falling apart....she's nowhere to be found.

[Apple Martini]

Kittyhat, on 21 April 2012 - 02:59 AM, said:

Not any and all, no ... but if she were male, I do believe she'd face a great deal less scorn.  Which is in fact what I said to begin with.

And I find that offensive and inaccurate, as someone who dislikes Dany for reasons that have nothing to do with her sex. I think it's a cheap, intellectually lazy excuse to avoid having to actually confront Dany's numerous problems. But you're happy falling back on it, so who am I to stop you. I do think it's cute that you think you're pulling one over on me. Rah rah rah girl power.

Edited by Apple Martini, 21 April 2012 - 04:15 AM.

[LordofWinter]

Kittyhat, on 20 April 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

She has breasts and no penis.

That's all.

There are plenty of excuses given for the reasons, but the fact is, if Daenerys were the same character otherwise save for being male, she'd have far fewer detractors.  And if you pay attention, you'll notice them condemning her for many of the same things they blithely give male characters a pass for and holding her to extreme standards and scrutiny they don't hold any male character to.

Incidentally, Arya and Asha mostly don't suffer from this, but as noted elsewhere, they have more traditionally "masculine" qualities to them ... and it's also worth noting that neither is currently a serious contender for the Iron Throne.  Tough women are okay ... as long as they know their place and don't aspire to too much.

On the subject of aspiring to too much ("get back in the kitchen!"), take careful notice of how frequently Dany is called "arrogant" and compare it with how often any male character you care to name is accused of that.  This is significant.  It's a bit like calling successful and educated black people "uppity," in fact, and comes from the same kind of thinly concealed prejudice.

have you ever considered that maybe you blindly defending her against what you think are her many male haters(i choose my words very carefully) is misguided and overly sexist? or better yet have you ever considered that maybe the reason that so many people find her to be "arrogant" is because that is how the author intended it to be?
and the funny thing about your post is that i genuinely feel that if dany was actually a boy instead of a girl than most of the people who defend her now(male and female) would think that the male version of her is a cruel and uneducated degenerate. consider if you will king joffery. while he shares some very distinct traits with dany(entitlement, more power than a child that age should have, an intelligent council that is for the most part ignored, in spite of having more advantages growing up than 60% of the population of the planet; a disturbingly large lack of military intelligence or strategy. etc, etc), seldom do we ever see people come to his defence. this i believe is because it is widely allowed to believe and feel that a male child can be pure evil, but thinking unkind things about a female (regardless of the terrible person she is) is just sexist.

King Robert was a pig because it was said that he did his fair share of whoring(remember that we never actually see any of this whoring)<->Cersei Lannister is just a woman trying to make the best of a bad situation(despite the readers all knowing the terrible things she's done as a wife and mother)
Ned is an idiot for not realizing he was surrounded by snakes and demons in kings landing <-> catelyn can't be blamed for releasing Jamie, because she was just acting as a mother trying to protect her daughters. (point being dumb moves by both parents, but equally dumb moves in my opinion)

all i'm saying is the next time you think to call somebody a sexist because they don't like a particular character, think about the fact that you sound just as dumb as people who think that certain characters 'deserve' to be raped and murdered.

[Barty]

Danny haters have a supporter in me at least....... I say let her stay in the slaver cities for the rest of the series - her whole plot line should be a big red herring.
She's a hypocrite - must kill all slavers - but not Jorah Mormont - why?? Jorah is in fact even a worse kind of slaver - he grew up in a kingdom where slavery is despised and a crime - in the slaver cities its perfectly legal and right - the wise masters weren't really given a choice in the matter were they??
She attacks Astapor to free the slaves but when slavery returns under the butcher king she doesnt care anymore - did she even write to Cleon ( forget raising her armies and attacking him) to free the slaves he had taken?? No!!(or atleast not that I recall)
Her dragons should have been killed the moment they started killing innocent people - I get it that they are useful to her in gaining the iron throne - but if she had any sense of decency she should be killing them - just look at the number of people viserion and rhaegal are killing in meereen - obviously to her dragon lives are more important than innocent people.
And whats with all the blood of the dragon BS??? Do we even get 1 page of her where she isnt thinking the same line over and over again???

Edited by Barty, 21 April 2012 - 04:54 AM.

[Winter's Knight]

LordofWinter, on 21 April 2012 - 04:49 AM, said:

have you ever considered that maybe you blindly defending her against what you think are her many male haters(i choose my words very carefully) is misguided and overly sexist? or better yet have you ever considered that maybe the reason that so many people find her to be "arrogant" is because that is how the author intended it to be?
and the funny thing about your post is that i genuinely feel that if dany was actually a boy instead of a girl than most of the people who defend her now(male and female) would think that the male version of her is a cruel and uneducated degenerate. consider if you will king joffery. while he shares some very distinct traits with dany(entitlement, more power than a child that age should have, an intelligent council that is for the most part ignored, in spite of having more advantages growing up than 60% of the population of the planet; a disturbingly large lack of military intelligence or strategy. etc, etc), seldom do we ever see people come to his defence. this i believe is because it is widely allowed to believe and feel that a male child can be pure evil, but thinking unkind things about a female (regardless of the terrible person she is) is just sexist.

King Robert was a pig because it was said that he did his fair share of whoring(remember that we never actually see any of this whoring)<->Cersei Lannister is just a woman trying to make the best of a bad situation(despite the readers all knowing the terrible things she's done as a wife and mother)
Ned is an idiot for not realizing he was surrounded by snakes and demons in kings landing <-> catelyn can't be blamed for releasing Jamie, because she was just acting as a mother trying to protect her daughters. (point being dumb moves by both parents, but equally dumb moves in my opinion)

all i'm saying is the next time you think to call somebody a sexist because they don't like a particular character, think about the fact that you sound just as dumb as people who think that certain characters 'deserve' to be raped and murdered.

I am sure even Apple Martini would not equate Joffery and Dany.

[LordofWinter]

Winter, on 21 April 2012 - 04:53 AM, said:

I am sure even Apple Martini would not equate Joffery and Dany.

but of course, look at their histories. joffery hasn't caused nearly as many deaths as dany has(at least not directly). i'm sure dany would have found some very interesting ways of torturing sansa that would make even joff cringe.

[David Selig]

I got to say the most extreme of Dany's haters are doing a great job... of making me like her more.

Part of me is even starting to hope to see her ending on the iron Throne (even though it would be kind of cliche), just so I can get hours of amusement out of the fallout on the board as a result of it. There would be at least five "I am burning my books" type of threads per day for a month...

Edited by David Selig, 21 April 2012 - 05:26 AM.

[Barty]

David Selig, on 21 April 2012 - 05:04 AM, said:

I got to say the most extreme of Dany's haters are doing a great job... in making me like her more.

Part of me is even starting to hope to see her ending on the iron Throne (even though it would be kind of cliche), just so I can get hours of amusement out of the fallout on the board as a result of it. ".  There would be at least five "I am burning my books" type of threads per day for a month...

I wouldnt be all that disappointed if she ends up on the iron throne- as long as the north remains free - under rickon or bran( or even Jon as long as R + L theory is wrong)- wouldnt want a targ(or a bastard with targ blood) ruling the north.

[Balintos]

I don't know if people would like her more if she was a male. He marries a Dothraki khaal! He's pregnant! Father of the dragons.
It would be strange, but still not really sympathetic or interesting.
I she stopped the "I'm the dragon thing" she would be a lot more sympathetic.

Edited by Balintos, 21 April 2012 - 05:47 AM.

[Serie]

Balintos, on 21 April 2012 - 05:46 AM, said:

I she stopped the "I'm the dragon thing" she would be a lot more sympathetic.

doesn't the same hold for Tyrion/Cersei and the rest of the lions?
doesn't the same hold for Ned/Arya/Sansa and the rest of the wolves?
doesn't the same hold for Stannis/Robert and the rest of the stags?
doesn't the same hold for Margaery, Loras, queen of thorns and the rest of the roses?
doesn't the same hold for Theon, Asha, Vicarion and the rest of the krakens?
doesn't the same hold for the sand snake sisters?\

do I need to say anything else?

(thank you for giving me the opportunity to say what I've been dreaming to say for a long time now )

[hombay]

One thing to note though -  some of these points are abilities that she thinks she has, but it's not definite. For example, she is not immune to illness even though she thinks so - remember that 'shitty' ending to ADwD?

[Winter's Knight]

hombay, on 21 April 2012 - 06:22 AM, said:

One thing to note though -  some of these points are abilities that she thinks she has, but it's not definite. For example, she is not immune to illness even though she thinks so - remember that 'shitty' ending to ADwD?

I thought that was caused by the berries?

[Balintos]

Serie, on 21 April 2012 - 05:57 AM, said:

doesn't the same hold for Tyrion/Cersei and the rest of the lions?
doesn't the same hold for Ned/Arya/Sansa and the rest of the wolves?
doesn't the same hold for Stannis/Robert and the rest of the stags?
doesn't the same hold for Margaery, Loras, queen of thorns and the rest of the roses?
doesn't the same hold for Theon, Asha, Vicarion and the rest of the krakens?
doesn't the same hold for the sand snake sisters?\

do I need to say anything else?

(thank you for giving me the opportunity to say what I've been dreaming to say for a long time now )

Tyrion should stop with the lion thing. But I don't remember Loras saying "I'm the rose". Most of the noble families use their sigil as a metaphor (I'm not really sure), I don't like it, but it's ok. But when they say "I'm the..." that's awkward.

[Serie]

Balintos, on 21 April 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

Tyrion should stop with the lion thing. But I don't remember Loras saying "I'm the rose". Most of the noble families use their sigil as a metaphor (I'm not really sure), I don't like it, but it's ok. But when they say "I'm the..." that's awkward.

that's my point too

[James Arryn]

Kittyhat, on 20 April 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

There are plenty of excuses given for the reasons, but the fact is, if Daenerys were the same character otherwise save for being male, she'd have far fewer detractors. .

'Fact' is such a variable word.

[Castel]

Serie, on 21 April 2012 - 05:57 AM, said:

doesn't the same hold for Tyrion/Cersei and the rest of the lions?
doesn't the same hold for Ned/Arya/Sansa and the rest of the wolves?
doesn't the same hold for Stannis/Robert and the rest of the stags?
doesn't the same hold for Margaery, Loras, queen of thorns and the rest of the roses?
doesn't the same hold for Theon, Asha, Vicarion and the rest of the krakens?
doesn't the same hold for the sand snake sisters?\

do I need to say anything else?

(thank you for giving me the opportunity to say what I've been dreaming to say for a long time now )

To be honest, this isn't just tedious when Dany does it, it's just as dumb with Tyrion or anyone else. Illyrio was right. But it gets worse when  you use it as an excuse to get arrogant, like Tywin in the series or Jaime or Dany in the show.