429 replies to this topic

[James Arryn]

Kinda OT

In my imagination, the following conversation takes place in a thread about whether Stannis could have beaten Renly at Storm's End:




A: I don't think its a coincidence that the more Aryan characters in ASOIAF are given a lot more leeway than Jewish characters. I mean, consider how often blue/purple eyes and white-blonde hair is described as the ultimate in beauty, whereas more Semitic features belong to the likes of Cleganes or Boltons.

B: Uh? But the Boltons have fair skin and blue eyes.

A: True, but have you considered how much they seek to remove skin? Isn't that pretty indicative of how they feel...or are supposed to feel...about skin?

B: What? I don't...I mean, even if that's true, it wouldn't mean...you are flipping around what you said.

A: Am I? Or am I just speaking inconvenient truths.

B: I don't...well, I mean, why is it all about antisemitism? There aren't even Jews in ASOIAF.

A: Exactly! Hitler's dream come true!

B: No, I mean...it's not even raised as an issue.

A: It's not allowed to be, you mean, because the Aryans are in charge.

B: No, I mean its not even in the text.

A: And who wrote that text?

B: Wait...so you're saying GRRM...

A: Oh, no, I'm not necessarily saying anything. I'm just pointing out things you may not have realized.

B: Why would you...I mean, I could even be Jewish for all you know.

A: I'm not saying you aren't. Self-hating Jews are well documented.

B: Yeah, but why...I mean, your starting position is off. I mean, once you start off with that conclusion, and fit everything into that frame, calling those bits which fit part of the evidence, and those which don't part of the conspiracy, you really are just exercising confirmation bias.

A: So you're saying antisemitism is a myth? Six million people just went for a walk?

B: No, of course not. I just don't think its central to each and every topic in ASOIAF. I mean, of course its a real issue, and of course some readers bring that to bear on some issues in here. I just don't think its anywhere near as central as you do. I don't think Stannis being more or less Semitic than Renly explains why more Stormlords supported him, or why more posters hate him. I don't even agree that more posters do hate him.

A: Oh no? Every week I see posts commenting on how 'handsome' Renly was, and all kinds of vitriol directed towards Stannis' receding hairline.

B: What? I mean, even if...handsome doesn't mean...vitriol?

Etc.

Edited by James Arryn, 23 April 2012 - 09:08 PM.

[Apple Martini]

^ /thread

[Queen Cersei I]

James Arryn, on 23 April 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:

Kinda OT

In my imagination, the following conversation takes place in a thread about whether Stannis could have beaten Renly at Storm's End:
A: I don't think its a coincidence that the more Aryan characters in ASOIAF are given a lot more leeway than Jewish characters. I mean, consider how often blue/purple eyes and white-blonde hair is described as the ultimate in beauty, whereas more Semitic features belong to the likes of Cleganes or Boltons.

B: Uh? But the Boltons have fair skin and blue eyes.

A: True, but have you considered how much they seek to remove skin? Isn't that pretty indicative of how they feel...or are supposed to feel...about skin?

B: What? I don't...I mean, even if that's true, it wouldn't mean...you are flipping around what you said.

A: Am I? Or am I just speaking inconvenient truths.

B: I don't...well, I mean, why is it all about antisemitism? There aren't even Jews in ASOIAF.

A: Exactly! Hitler's dream come true!

B: No, I mean...it's not even raised as an issue.

A: It's not allowed to be, you mean, because the Aryans are in charge.

B: No, I mean its not even in the text.

A: And who wrote that text?

B: Wait...so you're saying GRRM...

A: Oh, no, I'm not necessarily saying anything. I'm just pointing out things you may not have realized.

B: Why would you...I mean, I could even be Jewish for all you know.

A: I'm not saying you aren't. Self-hating Jews are well documented.

B: Yeah, but why...I mean, your starting position is off. I mean, once you start off with that conclusion, and fit everything into that frame, calling those bits which fit part of the evidence, and those which don't part of the conspiracy, you really are just exercising confirmation bias.

A: So you're saying antisemitism is a myth? Six million people just went for a walk?

B: No, of course not. I just don't think its central to each and every topic in ASOIAF. I mean, of course its a real issue, and of course some readers bring that to bear on some issues in here. I just don't think its anywhere near as central as you do. I don't think Stannis being more or less Semitic than Renly explains why more Stormlords supported him, or why more posters hate him. I don't even agree that more posters do hate him.

A: Oh no? Every week I see posts commenting on how 'handsome' Renly was, and all kinds of vitriol directed towards Stannis' receding hairline.

B: What? I mean, even if...handsome doesn't mean...vitriol?

Etc.

The issue remains that I never ever said the tendency to blame Danerys for each and every mistake and not subject Tyrion to the same criticism had anything to do with gender issues.

You stated earlier that I would say it was all because of misogyny. I never did. I never even mentioned misogyny.

All I noted was something that is pretty clear from these forums-- that Danerys gets not only condemnation, but widespread loathing for her mistakes; whilst Tyrion is seldom held responsible for his.

Your little converation could just as easily go:

A: I think it is a little weird that people on these forums loath purple birds for craping on people's heads, but seldom blame the red ones for doing the exact same thing

B: Oh sweet Jesus. Here you go making everything about color again. You do realize that no one can take a single one of your arguments seriously because you are obsessed with racism, right?

A: Racism? But I was just pointing out the readers differing reaction and unusual hatred for one character, and tendency to excuse another. Racism was never, actually, even mentioned.

B: Ha! I'll bet you that without even readeing your post, you mentioned racism, and used the words "unfair" and "dislike."

Edited: OMG-- you did! You mentioned two commonly used adjectives, and you mentioned bird coloring, so you are clearly obsessed with racism, and are making everything about racism, and are ridiculous.

A: But I never actually mentioned racism in my text, and my issue was reader response and the widely held opininos of the fandom, not--

B: Oh dear lord, there you go again. It's like those people who compare everything to anti semitism.

A: Huh? Anti semitism? Where did anti semitism even come from?

B: It was dragged in as a ridiculous comparison to show how wrong your posts are without actually addressing any issues brought up therin, thankyouverymuch.

A: Okay then, but again, I never mentioned racism--

B: You mentioned "red" and "blue" birds. I think we all know what you really mean by that.

Edited by Queen Cersei I, 23 April 2012 - 09:34 PM.

[Castel]

I wonder how long it'll take for the thread to get locked after this.

[Howling Mad]

Its disingenuous to say that neither Tyrion nor Dany have suffered for their actions because both of them clearly have suffered. Tyrion removed from power, belittled by his father and sister, forced into exile (to avoid certain death), sold into slavery.  Dany forced marriage to a barbarian, husband and son dead, betrayed by closest advisors, had to step up and rule/lead at a young age with little resources, constantly being challenged by every schemer and power hungry man in the world, limited/ no ability to control her dragons which are her only source of power, dragons constantly under threat of death or loss.

[James Arryn]

Queen Cersei I, on 23 April 2012 - 09:25 PM, said:

The issue remains that I never ever said the tendency to blame Danerys for each and every mistake and not subject Tyrion to the same criticism had anything to do with gender issues.

And I never said the above post had anything to do with you.

Quote

You stated earlier that I would say it was all because of misogyny. I never did. I never even mentioned misogyny.

That's not what I said. I predicted you would use words like that, and would see gender as central to the double-standard.

Was I wrong? What was the basis for the double-standard you were mentioning?

Quote

All I noted was something that is pretty clear from these forums-- that Danerys gets not only condemnation, but widespread loathing for her mistakes; whilst Tyrion is seldom held responsible for his.

Its clear to you. It may even be objective truth. But consider this: Dany and Tyrion differ along all kinds of lines. It wouldn't require a double standard or subtext for differing opinions on them to exist. No more than Stannis needs to be more or less Semitic to be more or less liked.

Quote

Your little converation could just as easily go:

A: I think it is a little weird that people on these forums loath purple birds for craping on people's heads, but seldom blame the red ones for doing the exact same thing

B: Oh sweet Jesus. Here you go making everything about color again. You do realize that no one can take a single one of your arguments seriously because you are obsessed with racism, right?

A: Racism? But I was just pointing out the readers differing reaction and unusual hatred for one character, and tendency to excuse another. Racism was never, actually, even mentioned.

B: Ha! I'll bet you that without even readeing your post, you mentioned racism, and used the words "unfair" and "dislike."

Edited: OMG-- you did! You mentioned two commonly used adjectives, and you mentioned bird coloring, so you are clearly obsessed with racism, and are making everything about racism, and are ridiculous.

A: But I never actually mentioned racism in my text, and my issue was reader response and the widely held opininos of the fandom, not--

B: Oh dear lord, there you go again. It's like those people who compare everything to anti semitism.

A: Huh? Anti semitism? Where did anti semitism even come from?

B: It was dragged in as a ridiculous comparison to show how wrong your posts are without actually addressing any issues brought up therin, thankyouverymuch.

A: Okay then, but again, I never mentioned racism--

B: You mentioned "red" and "blue" birds. I think we all know what you really mean by that.

As I mentioned, if you want to be legalistic, you are the one connecting the Renly-Stannis conversation with any of the context with which you are imbuing it.

But I'll be fair if you are: I will admit I assumed the source of the 'hatred, vitriol and double standard' you referenced in this thread were the same as the 'hatred, vitriol and double standards' you explicitly reference in countless others.

Ok, your turn: honestly, what was the source of those things you were suggesting existed here? Just some random observation with no meaning that you could see?

You can be as sincere/credible as you like.

Up to you.

Edited by James Arryn, 23 April 2012 - 09:46 PM.

[Howling Mad]

Castel, on 23 April 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

I wonder how long it'll take for the thread to get locked after this.

I sense warning points being earned.

[James Arryn]

Howling4Reed, on 23 April 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

I sense warning points being earned.

Really?

Is it rare for gender bias to be discussed in here?

[Howling Mad]

James Arryn, on 23 April 2012 - 09:47 PM, said:

Really?

Is it rare for gender bias to be discussed in here?

Oh, that's the point you were attempting to make

[James Arryn]

Howling4Reed, on 23 April 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

Oh, that's the point you were attempting to make

I am confused. I thought we were talking about double standards, as evident in both the text and the forum.

I see points along those lines made all the time. Have I mistaken 'allowed all the time' with 'allowed'?

Honestly, I seek clarification.

Is it ok to observe double standards in the text and/or forum, or not? I have tried to tailor my context within that which is consistently evident. I would feel terrible if it turned out that what I assumed to be valid/allowed is only valid/allowed under certain circumstances.

I don't see anything either QS or I said which should or would be worthy of a warning. For example, she has refrained from calling me thoughtless, stupid, etc. as has been her wont in the past. I say this kind of progress should be encouraged, not stamped out.