55 replies to this topic

[irwallace]

If indeed R + L = J

As it was said Stannis, would need kings blood to raise a dragon, what could be the possibility of Jon saving Mance's baby only to be used himself?

[Ragnar Of The North]

At this point in time, there's no way for Stannis to know about R + L = J. Even Jon doesn't know.
The only thing that could happen would be for Howland Reed to suddenly pop out and tell them, but I doubt anything GRRM writes will be that straightforward.

[Maroucia]

What is so special with king’s blood anyway? The Targaryens have been Kings for only 300 years, even worse, the Baratheons for one generation… I don’t get how the blood of a man who was born a regular noble guy can chance to have special powers after he gets crowned, like with Robert after the rebellion. The same can be said of the Targaryens who once invaded Westeros, so it’s not like they are really legitimate either.

[kissdbyfire]

Maroucia, on 21 March 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

What is so special with king’s blood anyway? The Targaryens have been Kings for only 300 years, even worse, the Baratheons for one generation… I don’t get how the blood of a man who was born a regular noble guy can chance to have special powers after he gets crowned, like with Robert after the rebellion. The same can be said of the Targaryens who once invaded Westeros, so it’s not like they are really legitimate either.

Yeah. And how about Mance Rayder? I think the king's blood business is a(nother) blunder by Mel.

[theguyfromtheVale]

The Baratheons are related to the Storm Kings of the Stormlands, so really, the Baratheons have been kings for thousands of years. And the Targaryens are the last remaining Valyrian noble family. So both have been around and important for quite some time.

However, I think focusing on king's blood has it the wrong way around: what Melisandre needs is the blood of a magically gifted person. And back in the olden days, the magically gifted were quite likely to become king at some point. The Starks and Targaryens both have a deep connection to magic - the Starks via warging and "green" magic, the Targaryens via "fire and blood"-magic. Remember that Dany's pyre for Drogo burned not only her stillborn son and her husband, but also the maegi Mirri Maz Dur. I believe without MMD (or another maegi) the ritual would not have worked. That's why the Targaryens failed to hatch any more dragons - because they didn't kill any magically gifted people.

[irwallace]

theguyfromtheVale, on 21 March 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

The Baratheons are related to the Storm Kings of the Stormlands, so really, the Baratheons have been kings for thousands of years. And the Targaryens are the last remaining Valyrian noble family. So both have been around and important for quite some time.

However, I think focusing on king's blood has it the wrong way around: what Melisandre needs is the blood of a magically gifted person. And back in the olden days, the magically gifted were quite likely to become king at some point. The Starks and Targaryens both have a deep connection to magic - the Starks via warging and "green" magic, the Targaryens via "fire and blood"-magic. Remember that Dany's pyre for Drogo burned not only her stillborn son and her husband, but also the maegi Mirri Maz Dur. I believe without MMD (or another maegi) the ritual would not have worked. That's why the Targaryens failed to hatch any more dragons - because they didn't kill any magically gifted people.

So this would make Jon the ultimate magical being? Surely Mel, would rather make use of him than help/follow him?

[Casperjd2]

Mel's power has gotton stonger as the dragons grow bigger.  Seems to me all the red priests are getting a little more out of their magic now.  The dragonglass candle at the Citadale, Victarion's red priest, Thoros,  I think that Jon and Mel are going to have to team up and fight the other, or Jon could be the other.

[Lady Octarina]

Melisandre will probably try to use him, but I don't think it will be by burning him alive (though burning him dead to come back is always a possibility, even if not my favorite).

But yes, I do wonder about her obsession with king's blood. I don't think it was her way of tricking others, I do think she believes it has magical possibilities. Perhaps it is the sorceress' belief that brings the magical element from it to the surface?

[the maester]

Maroucia, on 21 March 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

What is so special with king’s blood anyway?

Arguably,  Mel has used the blood of a bastard son of a king to kill 3 other kings so far - Balon, Joffery and Rob Stark.

[Maroucia]

Lady Octarina, on 21 March 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

Melisandre will probably try to use him, but I don't think it will be by burning him alive (though burning him dead to come back is always a possibility, even if not my favorite).

But yes, I do wonder about her obsession with king's blood. I don't think it was her way of tricking others, I do think she believes it has magical possibilities. Perhaps it is the sorceress' belief that brings the magical element from it to the surface?

If Kings blood have some magical powers, I would certainly think, as you said, that it truly comes from the beliefs of the person doing the incantation, or whatever is done to use that blood.
Same with the gods in Westeros, I don’t believe they exist, I believe that their power resides in the human beings that have faith in them.
Faith is strong, same as the human mind; magic kind of works as a placebo effect, but in a cooler way .

[Maroucia]

the maester, on 21 March 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:

Arguably,  Mel has used the blood of a bastard son of a king to kill 3 other kings so far - Balon, Joffery and Rob Stark.

None of those are her doing… Of course anyone could argue that she was able to control the Freys to kill Rob, Lady Olena to poison Joffrey, but this would be a long shut and I would never believe it. Balon might be the only one that I would be willing to consider she had something to do with it, but still, I don’t buy it.

[kissdbyfire]

Maroucia, on 21 March 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

None of those are her doing… Of course anyone could argue that she was able to control the Freys to kill Rob, Lady Olena to poison Joffrey, but this would be a long shut and I would never believe it. Balon might be the only one that I would be willing to consider she had something to do with it, but still, I don’t buy it.

Yup, same here. I think what happened with the leeches  and the three deaths was that she may have seen these deaths in her fires, for once she did interpret these visions correctly, and then she just used this knowledge in her 'performance' with the leeches in the fire to make everyone believe the king's blood in the leeches were responsible for the deaths.

[Casperjd2]

Exactly the red priest are gaining power as the dragons grow older.  Also the magic has gotton thicker and thicker as the story moves along.  Remember they are entering another suposed age of heroes according to some at the citidale.

[Blue-eyed Onion]

^Ok, so it's generally accepted that it is the dragons themselves that are 're-fueling' the magic of this world? then how is it than they came to be 'reborn'? i thought it was the comet that re-fueled the magic everywhere.

[Casperjd2]

Too hard too say, we know little and less about Asshai and Valaryia.

[Blue-eyed Onion]

From what little has been mentioned of it, it seemed to me the 'Doom' of Valyria, was a bit less magical and more, let's say, 'volcanic'?

[Prince of Dragonstone]

I think the very birth of the dragons themselves is a byproduct of the overall raising of magic that is happening world-wide. There are also magical "hot-spots" as well. The Wall being one, the ruins of Valyria and Asshai being others.

[irwallace]

If she does keep up this hold on kings blood... possibly a cruel twist for Stannis, she could burn him to aid Jon?

[Child of Spring]

If I remember correctly, it's said somewhere in the book that the magic died with the dragons. So now that the dragons are reborn, the magic is "reborn" as well.

[Child of Spring]

irwallace, on 22 March 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

If she does keep up this hold on kings blood... possibly a cruel twist for Stannis, she could burn him to aid Jon?

I don't think so, she thinks that Stannis is AA reborn.