55 replies to this topic

[Arya Targaryen]

But she could use Shireen - poor girl.

Actually, when Jon sent away all the King's blood (the kid and Maester Aemon), I don't know why he didn't consider himself as well. Of course he couldn't leave, but he never once thought that he has King's blood as well. Starks ruled the north for almost 8000 years, and he has Stark blood.

[irwallace]

Child of Spring, on 22 March 2012 - 03:02 AM, said:

I don't think so, she thinks that Stannis is AA reborn.

We are told she thinks he is AA re-born... but this could be a ploy of hers to manipulate her part in the game?

[Blue-eyed Onion]

irwallace, on 22 March 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

We are told she thinks he is AA re-born... but this could be a ploy of hers to manipulate her part in the game?

In her POV on ADWD she gets kind of pissed that when gazing into the fire to see Azor Ahai all the lord was showing her was Snow. She does believe Stannis to be AA.

[irwallace]

Blue-eyed Onion, on 22 March 2012 - 04:34 AM, said:

In her POV on ADWD she gets kind of pissed that when gazing into the fire to see Azor Ahai all the lord was showing her was Snow. She does believe Stannis to be AA.

How I remember it, she seemed confused rather than pissed off... but we are led to believe that she confuses the meaning of what she see's in her fires. She admits this herself, knowing this she may have just gone with her understanding of Stannis being AA as it went with what she needed to achieve?

[Blue-eyed Onion]

irwallace, on 22 March 2012 - 04:38 AM, said:

How I remember it, she seemed confused rather than pissed off... but we are led to believe that she confuses the meaning of what she see's in her fires. She admits this herself, knowing this she may have just gone with her understanding of Stannis being AA as it went with what she needed to achieve?

You saying she's deluding herself? possibly, probably. Thing is, for all we now the AA might not be a specific person but the person leading the fight against the Others in a particular moment, heh, how about that? contrived yes, but can you imagine it? this way at one point Stannis is indeed the AA but when he travels south to Winterfell and is Jon Snow 'leading the fight' then he is it. Tag.

[Apple Martini]

Casperjd2, on 21 March 2012 - 02:27 PM, said:

Mel's power has gotton stonger as the dragons grow bigger.  Seems to me all the red priests are getting a little more out of their magic now.  The dragonglass candle at the Citadale, Victarion's red priest, Thoros,  I think that Jon and Mel are going to have to team up and fight the other, or Jon could be the other.

More like, her power has gotten stronger the longer she's been at the Wall. People for some reason think that dragons have caused magic to reenter the world; I think it's the other way around. Plenty of types of magic — the old gods, warging, the Wall's magic, the Others, etc. — have existed before the Valyrians discovered dragons and after the dragons first died out.

I don't think there's any real power in king's blood, but that she's misinterpreting the prophecy. Jon overhears one of the men saying something like, "The father first, then the son, so both die kings." That's the reason they have for burning "Mance" and then planning to kill his child. But it's entirely possible that Melisandre is pulling things out of her ass and the "father first, then the son" thing means something else entirely.

Edited by Apple Martini, 22 March 2012 - 04:59 AM.

[irwallace]

Blue-eyed Onion, on 22 March 2012 - 04:50 AM, said:

You saying she's deluding herself? possibly, probably. Thing is, for all we now the AA might not be a specific person but the person leading the fight against the Others in a particular moment, heh, how about that? contrived yes, but can you imagine it? this way at one point Stannis is indeed the AA but when he travels south to Winterfell and is Jon Snow 'leading the fight' then he is it. Tag.

I like it! Surely if its Mel's game she is playing... based on that logic wouldn't she be AA? as its her pulling the string kind of?

[Apple Martini]

the maester, on 21 March 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:

Arguably,  Mel has used the blood of a bastard son of a king to kill 3 other kings so far - Balon, Joffery and Rob Stark.

Nonsense. She likely saw the deaths in her flames and tricked Stannis into thinking she was responsible using the leech theatrics. No evidence whatsoever she had any influence at all in actually getting the jobs done.

[irwallace]

Apple Martini, on 22 March 2012 - 04:55 AM, said:

Nonsense. She likely saw the deaths in her flames and tricked Stannis into thinking she was responsible using the leech theatrics. No evidence whatsoever she had any influence at all in actually getting the jobs done.

This is why I think she is like a Vary's style character, she is a master manipulater and Stannis and Jon are her pawns... She will make them think what she needs?

If she was not responsible for the 3 kings deaths. The manner in which Renly died still would need explaining then. The other deaths could have many excuses other than herself.

[Apple Martini]

irwallace, on 22 March 2012 - 05:02 AM, said:

This is why I think she is like a Vary's style character, she is a master manipulater and Stannis and Jon are her pawns... She will make them think what she needs?

If she was not responsible for the 3 kings deaths. The manner in which Renly died still would need explaining then. The other deaths could have many excuses other than herself.

No one is denying that she killed Renly. But she had nothing to do with Robb, Joffrey and Balon.

As for her manipulation, I think Jon's cynicism and skepticism regarding her are pretty well established, and Stannis is probably getting wise to her, or at least, using her as much as she uses him.

[irwallace]

Apple Martini, on 22 March 2012 - 05:04 AM, said:

No one is denying that she killed Renly. But she had nothing to do with Robb, Joffrey and Balon.

As for her manipulation, I think Jon's cynicism and skepticism regarding her are pretty well established, and Stannis is probably getting wise to her, or at least, using her as much as she uses him.

I feel you are right there, he does keep her away when he attacks KL, he has also kept her away from WF... Maybe in an act of panic she will do something that readers may not like!

[Blue-eyed Onion]

irwallace, on 22 March 2012 - 04:53 AM, said:

I like it! Surely if its Mel's game she is playing... based on that logic wouldn't she be AA? as its her pulling the string kind of?

She's the fire sword (and the wall is the armor). heh?

[irwallace]

Blue-eyed Onion, on 22 March 2012 - 05:12 AM, said:

She's the fire sword (and the wall is the armor). heh?

And Jon, wields the sword and wears the Armour?

[Blue-eyed Onion]

Speculation, from Jon's dream.

[Silver Spearwife]

irwallace, on 22 March 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

If she does keep up this hold on kings blood... possibly a cruel twist for Stannis, she could burn him to aid Jon?

If she ever comes to the conclusion that Stannis is not AA, maybe. Certainly would be interesting. I don't put it past Melisandre, but I doubt Jon would ever deign to allow it.

Is she really so intent on the king's blood thing? If she was, she would have just burned Mance. What reason, really, did she have for keeping Mance that outweighed her king's blood obsession? Unless Mance doesn't count, for some reason? This is another one of those topics I'm not thoroughly versed in.

Apple Martini, on 22 March 2012 - 05:04 AM, said:

As for her manipulation, I think Jon's cynicism and skepticism regarding her are pretty well established, and Stannis is probably getting wise to her, or at least, using her as much as she uses him.

I'd love to see Stannis turn on her.

This is a really interesting thread. Very cool theories.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Prince of Dragonstone, on 22 March 2012 - 02:51 AM, said:

I think the very birth of the dragons themselves is a byproduct of the overall raising of magic that is happening world-wide. There are also magical "hot-spots" as well. The Wall being one, the ruins of Valyria and Asshai being others.

I agree...as magic has arguably been rising since the first chapter where we first meet the Others. They were definitely up and about before the dragons were hatched so something was cooking before the dragons were born.  That said I think the dragons turned what was a very small trickle of magic back into the world into more of a steady flow given how people can perform so much more magic so suddenly after they were born.  I also think there is a dam waiting to break and that there will be significantly more magic as we get closer to the end.

[Faint]

Apple Martini, on 22 March 2012 - 05:04 AM, said:

As for her manipulation, I think Jon's cynicism and skepticism regarding her are pretty well established . . .

She was dead accurate, if you'll pardon the pun, about the "knives in the dark" though. You'd think Jon would be more receptive to her now.

[Sasha Steelsong]

irwallace, on 22 March 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

We are told she thinks he is AA re-born... but this could be a ploy of hers to manipulate her part in the game?

No I think she genuinely believes it...I just think she's getting the interpretation wrong.  When Stannis appeared in her vision she thought that was AA but it turns out the truth is that he was just the next stone on her path to AA.  She's not seeing Stannis anymore when she looks in the flames, she's seeing Snow, likely because Stannis' role in her path is over now that she is at the Wall and with Jon, but she hasn't figured out what she got wrong with the vision.

I think there is a lot of truth in the actual visions she sees which is why I don't think they can ever be discounted (i.e. were we to see what she sees as it happens instead of getting her interpetation of what she sees), I just think she is a piss poor interpreter so what she says about the visions is only right right 50% of the time.  What I  mean by right right is...there was a girl on a horse on her own trying to make it to the Wall and to Jon..that was as accurate as the kinves in the dark...her mistake is that she assumes it is Arya when it is in fact the Alys Karstark.

Edited by atpthornton, 22 March 2012 - 02:16 PM.

[The Duke]

atpthornton, on 22 March 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

I agree...as magic has arguably been rising since the first chapter where we first meet the Others. They were definitely up and about before the dragons were hatched so something was cooking before the dragons were born.  That said I think the dragons turned what was a very small trickle of magic back into the world into more of a steady flow given how people can perform so much more magic so suddenly after they were born.  I also think there is a dam waiting to break and that there will be significantly more magic as we get closer to the end

A dam waiting to break, eh?  What is a dam, if not a giant wall.  Where have we seen a giant wall that has been prophecized to fall, hmmmm............

[sarah.jenice]

Kissdbyfire, on 22 March 2012 - 01:56 AM, said:

Yup, same here. I think what happened with the leeches  and the three deaths was that she may have seen these deaths in her fires, for once she did interpret these visions correctly, and then she just used this knowledge in her 'performance' with the leeches in the fire to make everyone believe the king's blood in the leeches were responsible for the deaths.

I agree, and I think it was reinforced in her POV when she talks about needing to use the powders in her robe to do certain things to enhance performances.

I'm not sure about the king's blood, but doesn't Maester Aemon back it up and say she is correct? I can't remember.

I think she and Jon would be good allies. She seemed to want to help him in Dance, but I don't know how he would trust her. If she ressurects him?