162 replies to this topic

[butterbumps!]

I'm a pretty new poster here, and decided to join the forum in the first place in order to discuss Dany- as person, ruler, character.   I thought it might be a good idea to start a thread framed around analyzing/ criticizing/ praising Dany to counter-balance those predicated on love/ hate.  

I've said in other threads that even though I have come to disagree with her personality somewhat and dislike her methods as a ruler, I have to admit that she might be my favorite character in the sense that she is the only one who's really challenged me to such a degree.  While I confess I found her chapters difficult to read at times, I think her arc adds a huge layer of complexity to ASOIAF as a whole, and deserves even-handed debate.

A super abridged list of good arguments from other threads to lead off:
--She is/ is not extremely clever and adaptable
--She is/ is not sympathetic on a personal level (and to add, I love the exchanges between Dany and Missendei)
--She is/ is not afraid to use force
--She does/ does not have a good/ consistent method of justice.
--She should/ should not have taken Slaver's Bay
--She should/ should not listen to advice more often
--She does/ does not face adversity

So anyway, I hope this thread catches!

Edit--  I thought it might be a good idea to list a few of the more contentious points of debate in Dany's story-- not a prescriptive list, just those I personally find have changed my opinions as the story progresses:

--Whether she deserves the dragons (and if this compares to the Stark children's innate ability to warg)
--Whether she ought to hold the Iron Throne (based on Targ lineage, her ruling abilities, etc.)
--What would make her a better ruler (or why you think she's a good ruler as is)
--What were her specific mistakes (as a person/ ruler) if you believed she made any
--How do you perceive her abilities to adapt/ outsmart others she moves forward.
--Specific instances that influenced your opinion of her (made you like her/ disagree with her)

Edited by butterbumps!, 22 March 2012 - 10:14 AM.

[Baitac]

As hard as it is for me to write about these characters, it is way worse to read the vitriol. You can like or dislike a character, or aspects of a character and boy are you slammed. At the same time, I want to discuss  these great characters. It's a veritable catch 22. I love Dany. I think that she has gone through hell as a daughter, a sister, a wife, an accidental leader (her Khal was her leader), and an accidental ruler (it was supposed to be Viserys).  She has been forced to make awfully difficult decisions, some wise, some not, but they have all taken a toll on her soul. I'm one who hopes that a triumvirate of Stark, Lannister, and Targaryen can overcome the messy politics of Westeros and the backwards policies of both Westeros and Essos.

[Awesome Oberyn Martell]

I did really like Dany at first, but when she headed East she irked me a little bit as she takes far too long there. It's a very understandable point to stay in Mereen. She'd be as callous as Tywin if she went there and left it in chaos once she got what she needed, but since the end of AGOT I've wanted her to make progressive and substantial steps towards Westeros.

The hate on here is ridiculous though. "waaaaaaah she says blood of the dragon waaaaaaah". So what? All the characters compare themselves to their sigils, and Jon constantly laments that he isn't a Stark. People are far less forgiving of Dany than they are of other characters and I can't see why. She's undoubtedly faced a lot of adversity and is relatively able.

People accuse her of getting an easy ride with the dragons and the Unsullied. I think it's actually the opposite, she loses her husband (and obvious general) as well as her son in order to learn how she can get the dragons. Something which was obvious since she got the eggs, it was whether she could work it out or not. The Slavers were obviously fools to give away all their soldiers, but she manipulated them cleverly. Had Tywin manipulated them we'd be saying what a shrewd and cunning man he was. She made herself appear stupid to them and didn't reveal her ability to speak Valyrian to lull them into a false sense of security. She then used her greatest weapon which was her dragons and their loyalty to her to get the soldiers and then revealed her plan at the end, commanding the Unsullied in Valyrian. Something only one of the Slavers noticed, something used to highlight their greed about Drogon. It was clever, she told no one of the plan to ensure it never got out. She deserves credit but instead her haters just say the Slavers were unrealistically stupid. They weren't, they wanted a dragon and paid the price for underestimating her.

She becomes a bit annoying and should listen to Barristan a LOT more about her family, but she's a fairly nice individual who is competent and understands her weaknesses well and how she can even use them to her advantage. Unlike Cersei she isn't constantly wishing she had a penis. She has her flaws, but based on the past she'll adapt to them and build up again. Just listen to Barristan, go to Westeros.

[eyeheartsansa]

Rereading the Undying episode in ACOK was pretty enlightening, and gives me lots to think about... a refreshing break from qubbling over every little thing she does in Mereen.

The Undying stuff is pretty much the climax of her story in book II, it is one of two places where we hear any mention of 'ASOIAF' but we haven't quite seen where it all fits in yet.

[Awesome Oberyn Martell]

I forgot to mention she gets compared to Rhaegar, and as we all know Rhaegar is a boss so she must be fairly decent in the eyes of people who knew both.

[Euphail]

Awesome Oberyn Martell, on 21 March 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:

People accuse her of getting an easy ride with the dragons and the Unsullied. I think it's actually the opposite, she loses her husband (and obvious general) as well as her son in order to learn how she can get the dragons. Something which was obvious since she got the eggs, it was whether she could work it out or not. The Slavers were obviously fools to give away all their soldiers, but she manipulated them cleverly. Had Tywin manipulated them we'd be saying what a shrewd and cunning man he was. She made herself appear stupid to them and didn't reveal her ability to speak Valyrian to lull them into a false sense of security. She then used her greatest weapon which was her dragons and their loyalty to her to get the soldiers and then revealed her plan at the end, commanding the Unsullied in Valyrian. Something only one of the Slavers noticed, something used to highlight their greed about Drogon. It was clever, she told no one of the plan to ensure it never got out. She deserves credit but instead her haters just say the Slavers were unrealistically stupid. They weren't, they wanted a dragon and paid the price for underestimating her.

The first time I read the events with the unsullied I was quite impressed with Dany. It wasn't until I actually thought about it that I become somewhat less impressed. The whole event just seemed, fortunate. It was extremely fortunate that the leaders of the unsullied were idiotic enough to turn over their entire force with no plans on what to do if double crossed. It was convenient that the exchange didn't take place away from the city. It was fortunate that they apparently have never delt with a less than completely honest individual (apparently.)

I also thought it spoke a great deal about Dany's character. She 'free's' her unsullied slaves and gives them the option of names. She burns the unsullied makers so that no more might be made like her soldiers, because she feels so bad at the way they were treated. This is crafty, but for reasons other than what she states. I would applaud her if she burned the unsullied makers because she wanted to ensure that her soldier would never be matched... but she seems to (repeatedly) tell herself that she's doing it for the slaves, but later approves (though grudgingly) of the slave trade, even profiting from it. Further to this, when King Cleon reconstitutes the unsullied school(? if it can be called that) she does nothing to hamper this, because she knows her soldiers can't be matched.

I will agree that it was clever to hide the fact that she didn't speak the language.

Quote

I forgot to mention she gets compared to Rhaegar, and as we all know Rhaegar is a boss so she must be fairly decent in the eyes of people who knew both.

I really like Rhaegar because for the most part, he seemed to understand duty and honor. He read about the prince who was promised and, thinking it was him, understood that he needed to become a warrior, and did so. He inspired confidence in those around him, and seemed to bring out the best in people.

Obviously the events surrounding Lyanna cloud this, but I can't say whether I support him or not for the actions because we dont' know what happened yet.

Edited by Euphail, 21 March 2012 - 11:55 AM.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

butterbumps!, on 21 March 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

I'm a pretty new poster here, and decided to join the forum in the first place in order to discuss Dany- as person, ruler, character.   I thought it might be a good idea to start a thread framed around analyzing/ criticizing/ praising Dany to counter-balance those predicated on love/ hate.  

I've said in other threads that even though I have come to disagree with her personality somewhat and dislike her methods as a ruler, I have to admit that she might be my favorite character in the sense that she is the only one who's really challenged me to such a degree.  While I confess I found her chapters difficult to read at times, I think her arc adds a huge layer of complexity to ASOIAF as a whole, and deserves even-handed debate.

A super abridged list of good arguments from other threads to lead off:
--She is/ is not extremely clever and adaptable
--She is/ is not sympathetic on a personal level (and to add, I love the exchanges between Dany and Missendei)
--She is/ is not afraid to use force
--She does/ does not have a good/ consistent method of justice.
--She should/ should not have taken Slaver's Bay
--She should/ should not listen to advice more often
--She does/ does not face adversity

So anyway, I hope this thread catches!

The main problem is that she received her Dragons as a gift.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Awesome Oberyn Martell, on 21 March 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

I forgot to mention she gets compared to Rhaegar, and as we all know Rhaegar is a boss so she must be fairly decent in the eyes of people who knew both.

If by boss, you mean prancing jackanape who loses a war to two idiots, an old man and Hoster, I can't control my bannermen, Tully, then yeah, a boss.

[Awesome Oberyn Martell]

Lord Littlefinger, on 21 March 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

If by boss, you mean prancing jackanape who loses a war to two idiots, an old man and Hoster, I can't control my bannermen, Tully, then yeah, a boss.

I mean widely respected, talented polymath who was also a good warrior. When everyone except a delirious drunken thick oaf loves and respects you (including said oafs best friend), you know you're doing well.

[Awesome Oberyn Martell]

Lord Littlefinger, on 21 March 2012 - 12:01 PM, said:

The main problem is that she received her Dragons as a gift.

She receives dragon eggs as a gift. She hatches the dragons by learning the secret from the death of her husband and son.

And I realise the Slavers were stupid, but she portrays an idiotic young girl who doesn't speak the language and understands nothing of the Unsullied. She also enticed them with the dragons. She manipulated them, yes the Slavers obviously underestimated her, but she played a part in that.

[eyeheartsansa]

Quote

The main problem is that she received her Dragons as a gift.

This is a most certainly a potential problem, now that Illyrio appears to be supporting Aegon.  Illyrio supplied the eggs... dany hatched them.  I've thought more and more about this,  If/when Dany returns west, she wil have to come to terms with the fact that she owes a great deal to Illyrio, who let her stay in his mansion for years asking nothing in return, brokered the Dothraki wedding, and gave her the dragon eggs.

I suddenly don't see Aegon and Dany being allies anymore just because they are long lost cousins.  Aegon has the better claim and is already in Westeros.  So what is he going to do when Dany shows up?  I see another Dance of Dragons happening instead.

Edited by eyeheartsansa, 21 March 2012 - 12:56 PM.

[Zeromus]

I've never been interested in her character or storyline. She has just never come to life for me. And I feel the same way about Arya.

It's odd because I have no problems with any other female character in the books. Actually, I think I'm one of the few people who enjoyed Cersei's storyline in Feast.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Awesome Oberyn Martell, on 21 March 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

I mean widely respected, talented polymath who was also a good warrior. When everyone except a delirious drunken thick oaf loves and respects you (including said oafs best friend), you know you're doing well.

Maybe until the drunken oaf and his pal are able to mount a military campaign that swept away his kingdom.  Basically if the likes of them can defeat you, there's nothing special about you,

[Winter's Knight]

Awesome Oberyn Martell, on 21 March 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

And I realise the Slavers were stupid, but she portrays an idiotic young girl who doesn't speak the language and understands nothing of the Unsullied. She also enticed them with the dragons. She manipulated them, yes the Slavers obviously underestimated her, but she played a part in that.

Essos seems to me to be based on an amalgam of Middle Eastern and Central Asian cutures where there is a tendency especially among older people to not take women seriously. This attitude would be further strengthened by Dany being a "barbaric Dothraki girl" and very young as well.

The impression she deliberately gives people both here and later of being "only a young girl.." is one I have used lower the guards of male opponents whilst playing video games against them.

[Ame]

butterbumps!, on 21 March 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

I'm a pretty new poster here, and decided to join the forum in the first place in order to discuss Dany- as person, ruler, character.   I thought it might be a good idea to start a thread framed around analyzing/ criticizing/ praising Dany to counter-balance those predicated on love/ hate.  

I've said in other threads that even though I have come to disagree with her personality somewhat and dislike her methods as a ruler, I have to admit that she might be my favorite character in the sense that she is the only one who's really challenged me to such a degree.  While I confess I found her chapters difficult to read at times, I think her arc adds a huge layer of complexity to ASOIAF as a whole, and deserves even-handed debate.

A super abridged list of good arguments from other threads to lead off:
--She is/ is not extremely clever and adaptable
--She is/ is not sympathetic on a personal level (and to add, I love the exchanges between Dany and Missendei)
--She is/ is not afraid to use force
--She does/ does not have a good/ consistent method of justice.
--She should/ should not have taken Slaver's Bay
--She should/ should not listen to advice more often
--She does/ does not face adversity

So anyway, I hope this thread catches!

1. She is in some ways but not in others. She is adept at using treachery, but right now she lacks political acumen. She is trying to learn, but her idea to handle every legal case in her city is flawed on so many levels I don't know where to start. She at least dwarfs Robert, Renly, Asha and Theon as a politician.

2. She is certainly sympathetic on a personal level. Her only surviving family (she knows of) is an older brother who is so fixated on what they lost that he lost his sanity and has turned abusive towards her. She has never known any home, after being a good wife as taught her reward is her husband dies and she becomes infertile. She wants to destroy slavery, and that isn't even the full list because that would be too long for a single post. She sometimes handles herself badly because she is human not a Mary Sue (although she looks like one because of how badly done the Slaver Cities are).
3. To be less afraid to use force you are getting close to Tywin/Villain county. She isn't afraid to use it but doesn't enjoy it.
4. She doesn't have a consistent method but she does consistently try to deliver justice.
5. Hindsight is 20/20.
6. The problem isn't taking advice, she just listens to the wrong people. Ser Barristan for example had a counter idea to the Arena that could have saved her a lot of problems without forcing her to bend her conscience.
7. She does, although she is luckier then any other character. Asha would not have survived the poisoning for example.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Awesome Oberyn Martell, on 21 March 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

She receives dragon eggs as a gift. She hatches the dragons by learning the secret from the death of her husband and son.

And I realise the Slavers were stupid, but she portrays an idiotic young girl who doesn't speak the language and understands nothing of the Unsullied. She also enticed them with the dragons. She manipulated them, yes the Slavers obviously underestimated her, but she played a part in that.

Yeah, if only that made any fucking sense at all, then it would be ok.  But Her son and Drogo don't die at the same.  And the idea that blood/fire magic consist solely of burning people with no other knowledge makes her either seem, unimpressive for mastering the worlds easiest spell, or unrealistic for being able to pick up in 5 minutes what it takes other years and years of study to accomplish.

[Awesome Oberyn Martell]

Lord Littlefinger, on 21 March 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

Maybe until the drunken oaf and his pal are able to mount a military campaign that swept away his kingdom.  Basically if the likes of them can defeat you, there's nothing special about you,

Really? Barristan seems to love him. Ameon loved him. Jaime even seems to regard him quite well. Eddard seems to respect him as a person. Cersei loved him. Jorah admires him.

That's a bunch of people from all sides of the spectrum thinking highly of Rhaegar Targaryen, he defeated Barristan at a tourney so clearly wasn't a slouch. He was a talented harp player and seemingly a loving father and husband to Elia (from what we know).

[Lord Damian]

If Aegon is still alive if and when Dany arrives in Westeros, it might be too late to marry him. Aegon/Young Griff will have to marry to secure an ally to gain the throne and I think he will. Dany was supposed to be that bride and the dragons with her but she is "finding herself". Part of her problem may not be her entire fault. She has cast such a shadow that Jorah and Selmy have not, despite her commands to stop, told her the truth about Westeros and the houses that exist. In regards to her current duties, she has no real plan and is "winging it" as she goes. She has had good luck when it seemed as though she was getting bad luck. I am convinced that she needs Tyrion as her hand, someone who will not cower in her shadow but while drinking a flask of wine say: look, your grace, this shit is not going to work and this is why...... He is the cold, hard reality of Westeros politics in human form. I have doubts that she will have the wisdom to take his advise.

Edited by Lord Damian, 21 March 2012 - 01:18 PM.

[_Oberyn_]

Rofl even handed my arse, should change the thread name to "I love Dany troll club" No offense to the OP, his idea was good.

But in the end of the day there will always be a divide between realistic people who like to look at the whole picture and hate/dislike Dany because realistcaly speaking most things she does lead to compleate and unmitigated disaster and people that like/love Dany for whatever pixieland ideology they embrace about Dany herself or her story arch and view everything rose tinted glasses.

But to be fair here is also people that love Dany from a pure position of blissfull ignorance, and people who hate her because is a boring read in their opinion.

[Awesome Oberyn Martell]

_Oberyn_, on 21 March 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

Rofl even handed my arse, should change the thread name to "I love Dany troll club" No offense to the OP, his idea was good.

But in the end of the day there will always be a divide between realistic people who like to look at the whole picture and hate/dislike Dany because realistcaly speaking most things she does lead to compleate and unmitigated disaster and people that like/love Dany for whatever pixieland ideology they embrace about Dany herself or her story arch and view everything rose tinted glasses.

But to be fair here is also people that love Dany from a pure position of blissfull ignorance, and people who hate her because is a boring read in their opinion.

Not bias at all there. What you're saying is no one can read Dany and reasonably think her not worthy of hate. She has her flaws, but so do all the characters and for some reason people don't forgive her as easily as they do others.