162 replies to this topic

[Euphail]

Awesome Oberyn Martell, on 21 March 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

Really? Barristan seems to love him. Ameon loved him. Jaime even seems to regard him quite well. Eddard seems to respect him as a person. Cersei loved him. Jorah admires him.

That's a bunch of people from all sides of the spectrum thinking highly of Rhaegar Targaryen, he defeated Barristan at a tourney so clearly wasn't a slouch. He was a talented harp player and seemingly a loving father and husband to Elia (from what we know).

This makes me actually wonder why Dany is ever compared to Rhaegar at all. Rhaegar was a musician, loved to read, skilled at horse and weapons, and seems to command respect because of his actions and attributes.

Dany (to me at least) doesn't have any of these qualities. (Generallizing, feel free to dispute) The people that 'respect' her seem to do so out of lust (Jorah), respect of family (Barristan), or fear of dragons (everyone else).

[eyeheartsansa]

For me it's never really about hating or liking someone.. more to do with how much I enjoy their story, how they fit into the big picture, various ethical dilemmas, or trying to guess what's next.

I like Dany but I'm not the president of her fan club.  I just think she's a great character to read about. And a very attractive young woman.  who has dragons.  and is a baddass.

Dany is compared to Rhaegar not because of her skills and hobbies, but because there is an inherent regal air about her.  Like her or not, her charisma bonus is off the charts.  It was also about how she resembles Rhaegar so much more than she resembles Viserys.

Edited by eyeheartsansa, 21 March 2012 - 01:34 PM.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Awesome Oberyn Martell, on 21 March 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

Really? Barristan seems to love him. Ameon loved him. Jaime even seems to regard him quite well. Eddard seems to respect him as a person. Cersei loved him. Jorah admires him.

That's a bunch of people from all sides of the spectrum thinking highly of Rhaegar Targaryen, he defeated Barristan at a tourney so clearly wasn't a slouch. He was a talented harp player and seemingly a loving father and husband to Elia (from what we know).

Barristan seems to love him, he's an idiot he let his last 2 Kings get murdered. Ameon loved him, Aemon loves Sam, but its for his mind not his sword.  the same with Jon Snow. Jaime even seems to regard him quite well, he's the only person you've listed with an opinion that should be taken into consideration. Eddard seems to respect him as a person, that basically proves Rhaegar is useless. Cersei loved him, no she didn't.. Jorah admires him. Does he?

“My queen,” the big man said slowly, “all you say is true. But Rhaegar lost on the Trident. He lost the battle, he lost the war, he lost the kingdom, and he lost his life. His blood swirled downriver with the rubies from his breastplate, and Robert the Usurper rode over his corpse to steal the iron Throne. Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died.”

[_Oberyn_]

Awesome Oberyn Martell, on 21 March 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

Not bias at all there. What you're saying is no one can read Dany and reasonably think her not worthy of hate. She has her flaws, but so do all the characters and for some reason people don't forgive her as easily as they do others.

I said dislake/hate.

But ultimately never ever worthy of the Iron Throne.

Spoiler

As if that makes a diference to who sits on it, just using terminology people who are into fairy tales understand. Some people are reading the wrong book if you ask me.

For whatever reason people forgive other charactes is a diferent topic however looking at the forums Cercei gets alot more love than Dany, why do u think that is if Dany is so "great"?

Edited by _Oberyn_, 21 March 2012 - 01:51 PM.

[eyeheartsansa]

Robert wasn't jsut some drunken oaf though.  The Robert we've read was a shell of his former self; back in the day he was a force to be reckoned with.  This was a war between two Alpha males; it could have gone either way.  If they were alive today they would have been at the top of their class at West Point.  Just because one killed the other doesn't mean the loser sucked or was somehow inferior. He just lost a fight... and died.

Anyway, for the purposes of this thread... remember, the civil, level headed, fair and balanced Dany thread where we sip pinot grigio and nibble on cheese and crackers and act polite to each other, I think most readers will agree that

a. Rhaegar was a pretty swell guy.
b. some characters have observed a certain family resemblence in Dany.

Quote

For whatever reason people forgive other charactes is a diferent topic however looking at the forums Cercei gets alot more love than Dany, why do u think that is if Dany is so "great"?

I think Cercei gets more love than Dany sometimes because people like to be contrary, and not like the character that everyone else likes.  It's the equivalent of liking some indie band before they are popular.  And because Cercei's chapters in AFFC were arguably more fun to read than Dany's ADWD chapters.

Edited by eyeheartsansa, 21 March 2012 - 02:09 PM.

[_Oberyn_]

eyeheartsansa, on 21 March 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

Robert wasn't jsut some drunken oaf though.  The Robert we've read was a shell of his former self; back in the day he was a force to be reckoned with.  This was a war between two Alpha males; it could have gone either way.  If they were alive today they would have been at the top of their class in military school.  Just because one killed the other doesn't mean the loser sucked or was somehow inferior. He just lost a fight... and died.

Anyway, for the purposes of this thread... remember, the civil, level headed, fair and balanced Dany thread where we sip pinot grigio and nibble on cheese and crackers and act polite to each other, I think most readers will agree that

a. Rhaegar was a pretty swell guy.
b. some characters have observed a certain family resemblence in Dany.

Rhaegar was not an alpha male. And thats not something against him, its good thing in a king.

[Euphail]

eyeheartsansa, on 21 March 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

b. some characters have observed a certain family resemblence in Dany.

Why though? I remember there was a comparison, but what was it actually? Was it just that they look alike? OMG you have silver hair!! you're just like Rhaegar? The two don't seem similar to me at all.

[eyeheartsansa]

IIRC it was more like, 'wow, you're so much more like your awesome cousin than your stupid brother.'  Or you have a similar personality.  I can definitely see it,  at least enough to take Barristan's word for it.

None of us have actually observed Rhaegar in action.. so we can't know what he was really, besides what other characters have said about him.

Edited by eyeheartsansa, 21 March 2012 - 02:18 PM.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

I approve of this thread as I don't like how intolerant and how to put it, venomous people get sometimes over others liking or not liking certain characters. And of course certain assumptions happening over those who don't share their views and don't like the fictional characters they like.

I wasn't that much enthusiastic of Danny's story in ADWD, I expected better but now actually I think her story is in a better spot and I am actually optimistic over her storyline being better than it was in ADWD.

Edited by Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren, 21 March 2012 - 02:18 PM.

[eyeheartsansa]

Quote

Rhaegar was not an alpha male.

I don't know what you think alpha male means.. What I mean is someone who is successful, attractive, talented, physically fit, exhibits leadership qualities...

[Euphail]

eyeheartsansa, on 21 March 2012 - 02:14 PM, said:

IIRC it was more like, 'wow, you're so much more like your cousin than your brother.'  Or you have a similar personality.  I can definitely see it,  at least enough to take Barristan's word for it.

None of us have actually observed Rhaegar in action.. so we can't know what he was really, besides what other characters have said about him.

First Rhaegar was her brother as well. Not her cousin.

Second, Rhaegar loved to both read, play the harp, and was a skilled rider and skilled with arms. Dany became somewhat skilled at riding, due to her time with her Drogo, but beyond that she doesn't exibit love or talent with books or music (those to me were Rhaegars defining passions.)

[eyeheartsansa]

Quote

First Rhaegar was her brother as well. Not her cousin.

Wow, my mistake!

Quote

Second, Rhaegar loved to both read, play the harp, and was a skilled rider and skilled with arms. Dany became somewhat skilled at riding, due to her time with her Drogo, but beyond that she doesn't exibit love or talent with books or music (those to me were Rhaegars defining passions.)

Ok.. but you can resemble someone without being a carbon copy of them.  My brother and I, for example, have similar appearance but a very different set of hobbies and interests.  Yet everyone says I'm just like him, to our amusement.  Also, if Dany had been raised in privilege in KL she would have access to better resources and developed any number of talents.  It is awfully hard to find a good harp teacher when you've spent most of your life couch surfing in Pentos.

Why are we debating this anyway?  What exactly the point of deconstructing Dany's alleged resemblance to Rhaegar?  To me it seems like a given, but is there some larger point you are trying to make?

Edited by eyeheartsansa, 21 March 2012 - 02:27 PM.

[Apple Martini]

eyeheartsansa, on 21 March 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

Why are we debating this anyway?  What exactly the point of deconstructing Dany's alleged resemblance to Rhaegar?  To me it seems like a given, but is there some larger point you are trying to make?

I think it's a matter of Dany supposedly reminding people of Rhaegar, in a good way, and the poster being skeptical of that, given that they don't really seem to be that alike.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

I think that Danny has some gifts, she can be rather intelligent at times even if she is naive about stuff, and she seemed more reasonable than Viserys. She also has some compassion, so maybe more likely to be compared to Rhaegar than him.

Though I wonder how sane Rhaegar was. I mean Danny has plenty of excessive pride and Rhaegar seemed to be that way too, believing himself to be the prince that was promised, setting aside his marriage from which marriage he had kids and pursuing another relationship with another woman which would cause reactions to other houses. Rhaegar had a positive side, but he also had his flaws.

Edited by Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren, 21 March 2012 - 02:30 PM.

[Euphail]

eyeheartsansa, on 21 March 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

Why are we debating this anyway?  What exactly the point of deconstructing Dany's alleged resemblance to Rhaegar?  To me it seems like a given, but is there some larger point you are trying to make?

It was pushed earlier in the thread that Dany can't be all bad because she's compared to Rhaegar, and Rhaegar is swell fellow. I was wondering if there was anything to it other than looks. I agree she probably resembles Rhaegar. And she is probably more like Rhaegar than Viserys, but to me, her and Rhaegar are nothing alike.

[eyeheartsansa]

Quote

I agree she probably resembles Rhaegar. And she is probably more like Rhaegar than Viserys, but to me, her and Rhaegar are nothing alike.

ok, did you mean to say it this way?  It sounds like you aren't too sure.

Quote

Though I wonder how sane Rhaegar was. I mean Danny has plenty of excessive pride and Rhaegar seemed to be that way too, believing himself to be the prince that was promised, setting aside his marriage from which marriage he had kids and pursuing another relationship with another women which would cause reactions to other houses. Rhaegar had a positive side, but he had his flaws.

Yes, and it's likely that Selmy was perfectly aware of said flaws and was observing them in Dany as well.  Comparing Dany to Rhaegar isn't the same as patting her on the back and giving her a gold star, although she may have taken it that way.

Quote

believing himself to be the prince that was promised,

I thought he believed his son was the PWWP.  Or maybe both?

Edited by eyeheartsansa, 21 March 2012 - 02:37 PM.

[Apple Martini]

eyeheartsansa, on 21 March 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

ok, did you mean to say it this way?  It sounds like you aren't too sure.

I thought the way the poster said it was fine. To them, Dany and Rhaegar are nothing alike. They seem sure of their opinion to me.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

eyeheartsansa, on 21 March 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

ok, did you mean to say it this way?  It sounds like you aren't too sure.



Yes, and it's likely that Selmy was perfectly aware of said flaws and was observing them in Dany as well.  Comparing Dany to Rhaegar isn't the same as patting her on the back and giving her a gold star, although she may have taken it that way.



I thought he believed his son was the PWWP.  Or maybe both?

He originally believed himself to be the PTWP but afterwards he believed it would be his son IIRC.

Edited by Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren, 21 March 2012 - 02:39 PM.

[eyeheartsansa]

Apple Martini, on 21 March 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

I thought the way the poster said it was fine. To them, Dany and Rhaegar are nothing alike. They seem sure of their opinion to me.

I was just confused by the wording.  To me it sounded like 'I agree that the sky is blue, but not to me,'  a confusing statement.  I was just giving Euphail an opportunity to clarify.  Didn't mean to be condescending.

Edited by eyeheartsansa, 21 March 2012 - 02:44 PM.

[_Oberyn_]

eyeheartsansa, on 21 March 2012 - 02:17 PM, said:

I don't know what you think alpha male means.. What I mean is someone who is successful, attractive, talented, physically fit, exhibits leadership qualities...

Thats a very modern definition.

Robert and Drogo are alpha males. Rhaegars succes was a birth right and other aspects that could define him as alpha male seem to be part of his role as a prince rather then something he was wanted for himslef.