162 replies to this topic

[Ygrain]

Lord Littlefinger, on 21 March 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

But I don't have any respect for Ned, Robert Jon Arryn or Hoster Tully.  There were many Tully banner men fighting with Rhaegar.  The Dary's come to mind, but there are others.   The problem with Tully isn't that he couldn't control Frey at the battle, the question, is why the fuck is he still alive 17 years later to be a pain Robb's ass.  Robert and Ned may well be good generals, but from everything I've seen in the books they're idiots and the rebellion only succeeded because the King was insane and Hoster Tully had already built a Stark-Tully-Arryn~Lannister alliance.  Until some actual evidence of their military competence is presented in the books, I'm going to continue to assume they were always idiots as they were in aGoT.

Really, can't you make a valid point without demeaning and ridiculing half the characters? You keep trolling various threads with your "stupid Ned/whoever", but you having no respect for people is solely your problem, since the Westerosi apparently do not share your opinions. You might try to stop and think why Tywin says that the Red Wedding was a cheap and fast way of getting rid of a dangerous enemy, why Ned or Robb inspire such deep loyalty, why Jeor Mormont would have been more than glad to have Ned in Nightwatch, why Boltons kept a low profile while Ned lived... While you're at it, you might also want to consider if GRRM really created half the PoVs to be perceived as stupid, or if this is just your own reading.

[butterbumps!]

James Arryn, on 22 March 2012 - 12:24 AM, said:

Her intelligence/acumen is an interesting point. Because for her age she is extremely precocious, but within the ASOIAF context she's...ok. She doesn't really stand out one way or another. Where she makes leaps others do/could not, it's mostly on an instinctive/natural/supernatural way, like knowing how to realize dragons.

Does anyone know if we know for sure if she knew/ suspected that she'd get dragons?  
There's an early GOT Dany chapter where she describes a fevered dream where a black dragon engulfs her in flame and

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"She opened her arms to the fire, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean..."

I'm willing to stand corrected if there's something that points to her thinking the output would be dragons, but I'd always interpreted her going into the pyre as more of a cleansing/ tempering thing.  The leap of faith I mentioned before refers more to her suspicion that she wouldn't be burnt than dragons.

Edited by butterbumps!, 22 March 2012 - 06:47 AM.

[eyeheartsansa]

Apple Martini, on 22 March 2012 - 12:21 AM, said:

Fair enough. I think splitting hairs over what someone means when they say that Dany does or doesn't "resemble" Rhaegar is pointless nitpicking, so to each his own.

Qubbling over this perfectly believable plot point - Dany is alot like her big brother - in it self is splitting hairs, imo.  Especially when the logic seems to be:

Dany sucks
Rhaegar was awesome
Dany doesn't play the harp - see??? she's nothing like her awesome brother!!  Danny still sucks.

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Yeah, a lot of that basically. I would need to know the tactics they used and how they won their battles. We need to get same information about them that we have about the Blackfish. There's basically no evidence of them not being idiots. But the information should definitely not come from Barristan, i'm not very impressed with him either.

if you want detailed charts of military tactics, from battles fought in the backstory, this might not be the series for you.  I've always thought of this as more of a political thriller. Is there any charcter than impresses you, or do you think GRRM just created a stupid world with a bunch of stupid characters who have sub-par military tactics and get by on dumb luck?

Edited by eyeheartsansa, 22 March 2012 - 08:16 AM.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Ygrain, on 22 March 2012 - 06:06 AM, said:

Really, can't you make a valid point without demeaning and ridiculing half the characters? You keep trolling various threads with your "stupid Ned/whoever",

  I don't know why you consider that trolling.  I call people stupid routinely on and off the internet.  I don't know what else you would call someone who gets themselves and many people they care about killed over an imaginary concept.  

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but you having no respect for people is solely your problem, since the Westerosi apparently do not share your opinions.

Surely, you aren't suggesting we take our opinion cues from Westerosi society.

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You might try to stop and think why Tywin says that the Red Wedding was a cheap and fast way of getting rid of a dangerous enemy  

Tywin said it because Robb was undefeated in the field.  But Robb didn't come up with any of the battle plans. You could give Robb credit for Ox Cross, I suppose, but Grey wind is the one who sniffed out the goat track.  

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, why Ned or Robb inspire such deep loyalty, why Jeor Mormont would have been more than glad to have Ned in Nightwatch, why Boltons kept a low profile while Ned lived...

Well actually, I think its the biggest weakness of the series.  The Ned we meet in aGoT doesn't seem capable of having ruled the North for 17 years.  It strains the suspension of disbelief.   That being said, obviously he inherited a position of strength.  Its not clear that Ned is particularly like Brandon, his father or his sister. And his bannermen would wait for an opportunity when they would be likely to succeed if they hoped displace the Starks.  And during that 17 years the North seems to have been poorly managed.  Why do they have no naval power?  Why is the Stony shore so thinly peopled?  Why has the Night's Watch fallen to an all time low?  Why doesn't Ned have the same realization that Jon did, that every castle, town and hold fast should have its own "glass gardens" to free up man power from farming and to reduce amount of food that's needed to be stored in advance of winter.

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While you're at it, you might also want to consider if GRRM really created half the PoVs to be perceived as stupid, or if this is just your own reading.

  Well most people are stupid, so a realistic portrayal of the world would include a lot of stupid people.

Edited by Lord Littlefinger's Lash, 22 March 2012 - 02:07 PM.

[Ygrain]

Lord Littlefinger, on 22 March 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

I don't know why you consider that trolling.

Because it invariably makes the topic digress, and the condescendence does you little credit for discussions.

Lord Littlefinger, on 22 March 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

I call people stupid routinely on and off the internet.

And I think it bad manners, which create an unnecessarily pointed atmosphere.

Lord Littlefinger, on 22 March 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

I don't know what else you would call someone who gets themselves and many people they care about killed over an imaginary concept.  

I certainly respect them more than those who violate the very concepts.

Lord Littlefinger, on 22 March 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

Surely, you aren't suggesting we take our opinion cues from Westerosi society.

As a basis to judge a person's qualities as a general and leader - by all means. Unless you are a veteran of many medieval battles yourself, your opinion of who is or is not a great general sort of has no weight.

Lord Littlefinger, on 22 March 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

Tywin said it because Robb was undefeated in the field.  But Robb didn't come up with any of the battle plans. You could give Robb credit for Ox Cross, I suppose, but Grey wind is the one who sniffed out the goat track.

Funny how those idiotic Westerosi never realized that. See my point above.

Lord Littlefinger, on 22 March 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

Well actually, I think its the biggest weakness of the series.  The Ned we meet in aGoT doesn't seem capable of having ruled the North for 17 years.  It strains the suspension of disbelief.   That being said, obviously he inherited a position of strength.  Its not clear that Ned is particularly like Brandon, his father or his sister. And his bannermen would wait for an opportunity when they would be likely to succeed if they hoped displace the Starks.  And during that 17 years the North seems to have been poorly managed.  Why do they have no naval power?  Why is the Stony shore so thinly peopled?  Why has the Night's Watch fallen to an all time low?  Why doesn't Ned have the same realization that Jon did, that every castle, town and hold fast should have its own "glass gardens" to free up man power from farming and to reduce amount of food that's needed to be stored in advance of winter.

This is an old one: beating a dog with every stick handy. I can't see why Ned is to be held responsible for the state of the North which has been in existence for centuries.  I would also like to point out that the Westerosi society is extremely rigid and we don't exactly see much economic development anywhere.  The state of the NW is not a responsibility of Ned's. As far as I know, no-one has had the idea of the "glass gardens" for everyone. And so on.

Lord Littlefinger, on 22 March 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

Well most people are stupid, so a realistic portrayal of the world would include a lot of stupid people.

And so they deserve what they get. I see. Not really much to talk about here.

[eyeheartsansa]

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Not really much to talk about here.

Exactly.  We are definitely in troll land now.  Best to just let it go...

Edited by eyeheartsansa, 22 March 2012 - 02:52 PM.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Ghost714, on 22 March 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

You said there were other Tully Bannermen that fought for the Targaryen's, other than Darry. I actually listed the other two, and that's Houses Goodbrook, and Mooton. Hoster Tully also Didn't put up with that, he attacked them, and Hoster actually put entire Goodbrook villages to the sword,

Yeah, I know. I read aSoS

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for not following their Leige Lord.

You then ask, "why the fuck is he still alive 17 years later to be a pain Robb's ass."
I actually answered that too, and it's 14, maybe 15 years later, not 17.

that's not an answer.

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In my last post, I explained why it would be insane to attack the Freys, at the Twins.

Who said anything about attacking them at the Twins.  He could have done it when Frey went to Kingslanding to watch "Ser Daisy" knock Hosteen on his ass.

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The Twins are highly defensible, and it would be very costly to take the Castle. Not to mention that the Freys are like the most powerful Bannermen of the Tullys. So I really do not consider Hoster Tully an idiot, for not killing Walder Frey, because it would cost thousands upon thousands of lives, for Hoster to take the Crossing. Not to mention, the only slight that Walder Frey ever did to Hoster, was show up late for the Battle of the Trident, any other disobedience from Walder Frey, was done after Hoster was to sick to do anything. I mean come on, let's be serious now  

Lets be serious, what would Tywin Lannister have done?

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, do you honestly think that is justification for Hoster to attack the Twins? Do you honestly think that it would be worth it? Especially when Walder Frey was like in his late 70's during the Rebellion. So I am sure that Hoster didn't consider it neccisary to attack the Freys, because number one, it would cost Hoster a huge chunk of his army. Number two it really wasnt that big of an offense, and number three, Hoster probably assumed that Walder Frey would die soon after the Rebellion.

What good is a banner man you can't trust, who's just as likely to help your enemies as he is to come to your aid.  You're better off eliminating as an example to the others and when you aren't beset by enemies

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I still don't see how Jon Arryn is an idiot, or an inadequate opponent for Rhaegar?

we don't know anything about him.  I don't think competence can be assumed

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You later said, "the rebellion only succeeded because the King was insane and Hoster Tully had already built a Stark-Tully-Arryn~Lannister alliance."
I really have no idea what your talking about here. First off, it was Ned's father Rickard Stark, that came up with the idea for Brandon Stark, to Marry  Catelyn Tully, because Rickard had "Southern ambitions". Also there was no idea of a Tully-Arryn alliance, until after months into the Rebellion. Ned, Robert, and Jon Arryn wanted Hoster Tully to join the Rebellion, but Hoster would only agree to it, if Ned married Catelyn in the place of his brother, and if Jon Arryn married Lysa(despite Lysa loosing her maidenhead to Littlefinger, Hoster knew that, that would be the only way to find a "good" marriage for Lysa, because she was pretty much used goods at that point).
So there was no alliance before the Rebellion, only a betrothal between Catelyn and Brandon, and Lyanna and Robert, but considering that Brandon died at the start of the Rebellion, that betrothal didn't mean much. So you can't dumb down the victory of the Rebellion, by saying they only won because there was some great alliance before the Rebellion Started, because there really wasn't.
Also where do you get the Lannister part of your imaginary alliance??? At no point was there ever a Stark-Tully-Arryn-Lannister alliance, before or after the Rebellion Started, and the Lannisters didn't do shit to help the Rebellion, so even if there "was" one, I don't see why you would point that out.

Oh but there was one.  And Hoster Tully is the central player.  Remember Jamie Lannister was supposed to marry Lysa except Cersei intervened to get him named to the king's guard. Which is why I used a tilde for the Lannister part of Stark-Tully-Arryn~Lannister.  Once that falls through Tully withholds his troops until Jon agrees to marry Lysa.  Again, not of Robert or Ned's doing.  

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You act like there is no proof of Robert and Ned being Smart battle commanders during the Rebellion, but there is. Robert was Smart enough to forgive his enemies, and turn them into allies, also Robert once won three battles in one day, I am pretty sure that an idiot couldn't do all that.

I'm not. I don't think Roberts forgiving nature really has anything to do with intelligence.  He doesn't seem to differentiate, there are quite a few people who shouldn't have been forgiven.  Tywin, Jamie, Balon, Pycell, At least.

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Other than Ned and Robert not being good at the back stabbing, cut throat, Game of Thrones, I still don't see how that means they are idiots? Was Ned not a good father?

No. He brought his daughters into a very dangerous situation with insufficient men to protect them and proceeds to lend those out.  Not that one can't be both an idiot and a good father.

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Was Ned not a great Warden of the North?

no. as i commented on above.  The North seems incredibly mismanaged

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Ned and Robert aren't good at the Game of Thrones, unlike Littlefinger. Does that mean Ned and Robert are stupid?

probably

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No.
Just like Littlefinger would be awful at leading a battle

I don't think he would be.  I think he would be quite good at it.  He's clearly an excellent strategic thinker.

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, but that doesn't make him an idiot, it just means people a good at something's, and bad at others.

and if he were not good at but still continued to do it, then it would make him an idiot.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Ygrain, on 22 March 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

Because it invariably makes the topic digress, and the condescendence does you little credit for discussions.

yeah. but i find it problematic that people discuss Ned like he's not an idiot.  You can't justify his actions because he does some very stupid things.  And that stupidity is fundamentally the most defining characteristic of Ned Stark

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And I think it bad manners, which create an unnecessarily pointed atmosphere.

well that's true. it is bad manners, but I like a pointed atmosphere

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I certainly respect them more than those who violate the very concepts.

ok. I don't. I think they're stupid.

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As a basis to judge a person's qualities as a general and leader - by all means. Unless you are a veteran of many medieval battles yourself, your opinion of who is or is not a great general sort of has no weight.

that's true, but neither do anyone else's. Intelligence has always played a large role in armed conflict.  To predict the actions of your opponents and prevent them from predicting yours.

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Funny how those idiotic Westerosi never realized that. See my point above.

I don't know what you mean.  Both Tyrion and Jamie point out that Robb has never faced Tywin in the field.  And they don't know role the Blackfish is playing.  Catelyn has to dissuade Robb from attempting to storm the Twins.  Karstark and Bolton both call him "the king who lost the North".  I'm pretty sure they did realize it, that's why Robb was murdered in the first place.

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This is an old one: beating a dog with every stick handy. I can't see why Ned is to be held responsible for the state of the North which has been in existence for centuries.  I would also like to point out that the Westerosi society is extremely rigid and we don't exactly see much economic development anywhere.

Old Town and the Westerlands, Wyman Manderly seems to be doing a good job running White Harbor

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The state of the NW is not a responsibility of Ned's

It is and it isn't. Ned was talking about calling his banners and going beyond the wall to attack Mance in the first Catelyn chapter in aGoT

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. As far as I know, no-one has had the idea of the "glass gardens" for everyone. And so on.

Jon did.

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And so they deserve what they get. I see. Not really much to talk about here.

No they're just stupid, so... they're stupid.  You asked why Martin would include so many stupid characters in his series.  I answered it.  But the stupid nobility who only have their station because they inherent it, yeah, they deserve what they get, they're playing the game of thrones.  You win or you die, you know.

Edited by Lord Littlefinger's Lash, 22 March 2012 - 03:26 PM.

[eyeheartsansa]

Ok, this is supposed to be a Dany thread.  This is getting lame.

Edited by eyeheartsansa, 22 March 2012 - 03:23 PM.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

eyeheartsansa, on 22 March 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

Ok, this is supposed to be a Dany thread.  This is getting lame.

why don't you say something about Dany.  I'm only responding to what's posted using my quotes.

[BabyMeraxes]

I think another big problem that people can't get past with Dany is her magical, I don't know the right word, affinity? With the exception of Melisandre and Bran, no other POV character has experienced the same kind of exposure to magic as Dany. I think this has a lot to do with why people say Dany doesn't deserve her dragons. I don't think they really understand the wild, unpredictable nature of sorcery. Dany's also a Valyrian, and they are known for having a very close relationship with the arcane. I wonder if this really is frustrating for people, and why, because, honestly, this is one of the major reasons I enjoy her.

[eyeheartsansa]

I think a big part of it is maternal as well, in a very real and non-magical sense.  Having dragons is not like finding puppies on the side of the road.  She was pregnant for 9 months.. and went through all the regular ups and downs of a real pregnancy.  the dragons hatch at the same time her child would have been born.  There is a 'bonding' that takes place, with certain hormones/endorphins/dopamine or what-have-you being released. As the father of a one year old, this is very fresh on my mind!  So in a very real sense, for Dany, it's like she really is their mother.

Nobody really understands this but Dany, and even she can't really put it into words because they didn't know what endorphins were back then.  So it seems 'mystical.'

Edited by eyeheartsansa, 22 March 2012 - 04:06 PM.

[Mumatil]

Awesome Oberyn Martell, on 21 March 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:

I did really like Dany at first, but when she headed East she irked me a little bit as she takes far too long there. It's a very understandable point to stay in Mereen. She'd be as callous as Tywin if she went there and left it in chaos once she got what she needed, but since the end of AGOT I've wanted her to make progressive and substantial steps towards Westeros.

The hate on here is ridiculous though. "waaaaaaah she says blood of the dragon waaaaaaah". So what? All the characters compare themselves to their sigils, and Jon constantly laments that he isn't a Stark. People are far less forgiving of Dany than they are of other characters and I can't see why. She's undoubtedly faced a lot of adversity and is relatively able.

People accuse her of getting an easy ride with the dragons and the Unsullied. I think it's actually the opposite, she loses her husband (and obvious general) as well as her son in order to learn how she can get the dragons. Something which was obvious since she got the eggs, it was whether she could work it out or not. The Slavers were obviously fools to give away all their soldiers, but she manipulated them cleverly. Had Tywin manipulated them we'd be saying what a shrewd and cunning man he was. She made herself appear stupid to them and didn't reveal her ability to speak Valyrian to lull them into a false sense of security. She then used her greatest weapon which was her dragons and their loyalty to her to get the soldiers and then revealed her plan at the end, commanding the Unsullied in Valyrian. Something only one of the Slavers noticed, something used to highlight their greed about Drogon. It was clever, she told no one of the plan to ensure it never got out. She deserves credit but instead her haters just say the Slavers were unrealistically stupid. They weren't, they wanted a dragon and paid the price for underestimating her.

She becomes a bit annoying and should listen to Barristan a LOT more about her family, but she's a fairly nice individual who is competent and understands her weaknesses well and how she can even use them to her advantage. Unlike Cersei she isn't constantly wishing she had a penis. She has her flaws, but based on the past she'll adapt to them and build up again. Just listen to Barristan, go to Westeros.

I agree with most points but the one of the slavers being undeniably stupid is arguable.

They have been training Unsullied for generations and didn't bother to figure out the whole obediance loophole.

You think someone might have tried the same thing in the past, or maybe the slavers could have key command or something.

[Black Wind]

I have tried to follow most of the latest We love/hate Dany threads, although I didn't have enough time  to post my own ideas about her, yet. For the time being, I agree with the OP that Dany makes for some of the most interesting debates about ASOIF, whether you like her or not.
At first glance she is a rather conventional fantasy character:
We have a beautiful young princess who lost her kingdom and lives now in exile with her evil brother. She knows that it is her destiny to win back her kingdom and save her poor people from the evil usurpers. By some accident she finds her family's magic heirloom (in Dany's case, three dragons) which gives her the power to defeat her enemies. Additionally, there are some very special prophecies, that convince her and everybody else that she is indeed the chosen one.
We all know how a story like this usually ends: After many adventures, the princess finally makes it back to her kingdom and saves it from the most evil threat ever. The big plot twist: She falls in love with the son of the evil ursurpers, who is actually a good guy with his own magical powers. Together they defeat the bad guys, restore peace to the realm and live happily ever after.

As I said, that's the usual fantasy story. I am very glad that this is obviously NOT what GRRM is doing with Dany.

[eyeheartsansa]

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We all know how a story like this usually ends: After many adventures, the princess finally makes it back to her kingdom and saves it from the most evil threat ever. The big plot twist: She falls in love with the son of the evil ursurpers, who is actually a good guy with his own magical powers. Together they defeat the bad guys, restore peace to the realm and live happily ever after.

That sounds dreadful.  Is that what Ann McCaffrey novels are like?

[BabyMeraxes]

eyeheartsansa, on 22 March 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

I think a big part of it is maternal as well, in a very real and non-magical sense.  Having dragons is not like finding puppies on the side of the road.  She was pregnant for 9 months.. and went through all the regular ups and downs of a real pregnancy.  the dragons hatch at the same time her child would have been born.  There is a 'bonding' that takes place, with certain hormones/endorphins/dopamine or what-have-you being released. As the father of a one year old, this is very fresh on my mind!  So in a very real sense, for Dany, it's like she really is their mother.

Nobody really understands this but Dany, and even she can't really put it into words because they didn't know what endorphins were back then.  So it seems 'mystical.'

I agree wholeheartedly. I've said it before, but I've always read Dany's dragons to be more like her companions, while a lot of other people simply see them as war machines. Also, I think your point only strengthens the argument that Dany's dragons were "deserved" (although I find that I really don't like that word).

[eyeheartsansa]

Yeah, I don't know if 'deserved' is the right word.. I DON'T think those dragons would have hatched for just anyone though.  I don't know if MMD had anything to do with any of this, through her death or the blood voodoo stuff she did in the tent.. if there is some divine force that bestowed them upon her, if she is destined to be Azhor Ahai or what.  In this world i am Presbyterian but I'm pretty sure in Westeros I would be agnostic.  For now I think I prefer not to know - the mystery of it is a nice touch.

Edited by eyeheartsansa, 22 March 2012 - 06:58 PM.

[Black Wind]

eyeheartsansa, on 22 March 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

That sounds dreadful. Is that what Ann McCaffrey novels are like?

I had to google Ann McCaffrey but yes, I felt a bit sick myself  when I was writing that. . But I trust in GRRM and  don't expect that Dany's story will end like this.

Edited by Black Wind, 22 March 2012 - 07:08 PM.

[tze]

Mumatil, on 22 March 2012 - 04:24 PM, said:

They have been training Unsullied for generations and didn't bother to figure out the whole obediance loophole.

You think someone might have tried the same thing in the past, or maybe the slavers could have key command or something.

I think the issue is that Dany thought up a plan (rob Astapor) that it's true nobody had ever tried before---but the problem is, she never stopped to ask herself why nobody had ever tried it before.

If you think about it, who was the market for Unsullied? Not Westerosi---slavery being really, really illegal in Westeros means a slave army would have been suicide for any Westerosi lord or king who attempted to use it. We don't know what the slavery situation is in Sothyros or the Summer Islands, so it's difficult to speculate if they'd face the same issues. So that basically just leaves the Essosi as the potential (usual) buyers of Unsullied armies. Which means that anyone who tried what Dany tried would find themselves with a free army and a shattered reputation in Essos, i.e., the same place they'd be operating in in the future. And this is a society in which a person's reputation, the value of his or her word, is crucial. Rob Astapor of an Unsullied army, and you guarantee a few things: first, that nobody who hears the story will ever trust you again---they won't trust that you want peace, they won't trust you in trade agreements, they won't ally with you for fear that you'll screw them over. Second, it means that when your forces need replentishing---and soliders always die in war---you'll have no way of getting more Unsullied. And you won't be able to rely on military alliances with other city-states because your reputation is mud. You could just hire sellswords, but unless you just want to sack a few cities and then run off and retire---and most people who have the money to buy Unsullied in the first place will have investments and future goals that prevent that---you'll have sacrificed your long-term goals in favor of extremely short-term rewards.

And this is exactly what happened to Dany: she got a free army, but ended up having to give up huge concessions to everyone around her because her reputation was in tatters and her word was worthless. And every Unsullied that dies, whether in open battle or against the Sons of the Harpy, is 100%  irreplacable.

BabyMeraxes, on 22 March 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

I think another big problem that people can't get past with Dany is her magical, I don't know the right word, affinity? With the exception of Melisandre and Bran, no other POV character has experienced the same kind of exposure to magic as Dany. I think this has a lot to do with why people say Dany doesn't deserve her dragons. I don't think they really understand the wild, unpredictable nature of sorcery. Dany's also a Valyrian, and they are known for having a very close relationship with the arcane. I wonder if this really is frustrating for people, and why, because, honestly, this is one of the major reasons I enjoy her.

I actually see it in the opposite way as you. Despite her exposure to magic---the pyre, the Undying, Quaithe---Dany strikes me as one of the less magical people in this series. She pisses off the Undying of Qarth, but she can't use any of the warlock's (or the Undying's) magic. Everyone else gives her prophecies, she doesn't "see" prophecies via her own power (every "known" prophecy has been given to her by either Quaithe or the Undying, and if some of her dreams turn out to be prophetic, the same can be said for half the characters in this series). The pyre was a one-time magical event, and Dany has never used any fire/blood magic since. Throughout this series, we've seen the Starks' magical powers grow, from dreams to waking warging to warging multiple animals to seeing through trees. Even Melisandre claims her powers are growing. Dany is actually very static in comparison to the magic-users of this series; the dragons grow, but her "affinity" with them does not; she had way more control over them when they were babies, which is the direct opposite of what's been happening to everyone else.

Honestly, the Targaryens in general always struck me as the "backwoods cousins" of the Valyrian Freehold. We keep hearing about all of these wonderful magical abilities of Valyrian sorcerers---they made glass candles that could see over great distances, dragon horns, the topless towers of Valyria, they even built magnificent roads---yet the Targs couldn't accomplish the same things. The only time the Targs produced actual sorcerers, those sorcerers got their abilities from their non-Targ parent (Bloodraven, Shiera Seastar). The Targs have no glass candles (and couldn't make any), built no magnificent Valyrian-style roads, accomplished no magical feats. Even the Red Keep is achingly non-magical. The Targs only had dragons, which was a useful thing, but compared to what Valyria could do, they were one-trick ponies---and even the dragons died out while in the Targs' care.

If anything, I see Dany as someone who believes she has far more magical powers than she actually has. Her belief that Tararyens are immune to sickness has already been debunked elsewhere, so I won't go into it here. She's not immune to fire, as we've seen her get burned. She can't make Drogon go where she wants him to go---he goes where he wants to go. Drogon let her ride on his back, but she's never made him go anywhere he didn't expressly already want to go, and even the former part could easily be because she raised him from a hatchling, not because of anything special in the Targ bloodline. She's shown no abilities even close to warging. So what exactly are her magical powers?

Honestly, I don't think Dany understands the wild, unpredictable nature of sorcery. Look at how big of a deal she makes of the pyre, to the point where she tries telling herself that the events in the pyre were repeated in the pit. I think she's mistaking a unique, miraculous magical event (the pyre) for a magical ability, which is not actually the same thing, and which is problematic if/when she meets people who can rely on actual (developed) magical abilities (like the Starks).

[eyeheartsansa]

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I think the issue is that Dany thought up a plan (rob Astapor) that it's true nobody had ever tried before---but the problem is, she never stopped to ask herself why nobody had ever tried it before.

If you think about it, who was the market for Unsullied? Not Westerosi---slavery being really, really illegal in Westeros means a slave army would have been suicide for any Westerosi lord or king who attempted to use it. We don't know what the slavery situation is in Sothyros or the Summer Islands, so it's difficult to speculate if they'd face the same issues. So that basically just leaves the Essosi as the potential (usual) buyers of Unsullied armies. Which means that anyone who tried what Dany tried would find themselves with a free army and a shattered reputation in Essos, i.e., the same place they'd be operating in in the future. And this is a society in which a person's reputation, the value of his or her word, is crucial. Rob Astapor of an Unsullied army, and you guarantee a few things: first, that nobody who hears the story will ever trust you again---they won't trust that you want peace, they won't trust you in trade agreements, they won't ally with you for fear that you'll screw them over. Second, it means that when your forces need replentishing---and soliders always die in war---you'll have no way of getting more Unsullied. And you won't be able to rely on military alliances with other city-states because your reputation is mud. You could just hire sellswords, but unless you just want to sack a few cities and then run off and retire---and most people who have the money to buy Unsullied in the first place will have investments and future goals that prevent that---you'll have sacrificed your long-term goals in favor of extremely short-term rewards.

And this is exactly what happened to Dany: she got a free army, but ended up having to give up huge concessions to everyone around her because her reputation was in tatters and her word was worthless. And every Unsullied that dies, whether in open battle or against the Sons of the Harpy, is 100% irreplacable.

That is a remarkably succinct summary of Dany's predicament.  It suddenly seems very clear now.

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So what exactly are her magical powers?

The thing is, she doesn't really seem all that interested.  'Magic' cost her her sun and stars and her son.  And it almost got her killed in Quarth.  I really think she is just trying to go by her wits and her guts and her dragons.. and when it comes down to it, even the dragons don't seem that magical.  Aside from the mysterious circumstances under which they are hatched, them seem like big dangerous fire-breathing animals that can be trained with a whip.. not like, say Eragon's dragons that shares a special, fuzzy psychic bond with its rider.  But there is still much we don't know.

Targeryan 'blood of the dragon stuff'... I'm not sure what she thinks that means.. if they were literally related to dragons somehow.. but it seems to fade into legend so it's all very vague.  So far it seems little more than a family slogan, like 'Hear me roar."