406 replies to this topic

[arrowfan]

Ok time for me to check in on the Tebow....

Turns out the Packers were considering him.  I have to be honest, I think he'd be a great bench warmer for Rodgers.  Tebow has a great NFL work ethic (nevermind his other ethics), and he's a strong physical player.  Packers have a great QB coaching staff (not to mention, QB scouting).  Who knows...

It's somewhat ridiculous that he goes to the Jets.  I just don't see how that benefits either he or the Jets. But maybe it's somewhat fitting?!

[MinDonner]

Just be thankful you're not this guy.

[Triskele]

MinDonner, on 24 March 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

Just be thankful you're not this guy.

No...it can't be real...

[Jaime L]

So Merrill Hoge after a supposed 120 hours of film study is on record saying that he likes RGIII better as a QB than Luck. But that you gotta take with a grain of salt because Hoge has suffered many, many concussions. But now Greg Cosell of NFL Network has done his film work and he's only adding to the drumbeat for RGIII as the #1 overall. He says RGIII has better arm strength, better accuracy on deep balls, better at creating YAC for his receivers, better at throwing from different arm angles and has better composure in the pocket. About the only thing he gives the edge to Luck is the ability to make adjustments at the line of scrimmage and the fact he just kills it with the Sunday New York Times crossword puzzle every week.

Y'know to some extent we knew this was going to happen. If you have a clear #1 guy you need to find stories that pick apart what he does so you can create some drama leading up to draft day. That's what happened with Ryan Leaf who despite the hype was never in the same league as Peyton Manning as a prospect. Arm strength alone shouldn't be able to counter being deficient everywhere else. This however is a little different because everything I see indicates RGIII is not only in the same class as Luck but capable of being more spectacular of a player, if perhaps, less steady and more injury prone. But Hoge and Cosell's comments set the stage for public perception to start shifting on this.and my concern as the drumbeat gets louder is that the Colts start buying in. Hell, it's happening to me too. As RGIII's stock continues to rise I get more excited about his potential as a Redskin but hand-in-hand with that I also get more concerned that his stock is rising to the point he doesn't make it to #2. Again, that just means Luck does, which would still make me intensely happy. Was only like 4 months ago I was completely bitter at the Colts for finding a way to fall ass-backwards into both Manning and Luck, the two premier QB prospects of our time (and not having to give up 3 first rounders to get either.......). It's just that everything has linked RGIII to the Skins thus far so that's where I've pinned all my hopes. We need this guy to be a savior, especially as we mortgaged multiple drafts on him. I'd be shocked if both don't become very good QBs in this league, but if one doesn't, man the stakes couldn't be any higher.

We still got a month to the draft - an eternity as far as these things going. We saw the fuck all that conventional wisdom was good for with the Peyton Manning and then the Tim Tebow situation. These are confusing times. And I'm just waiting for that Schefter tweet saying Colts brass "undecided between RGIII and Luck". God bless football - where even unequivocally good things can make you a Woody Allen level of neurotic.

Edited by Jaime L, 24 March 2012 - 08:36 PM.

[Mack Kilimaro]

I've watched equal amounts of footage on Luck and RGIII, which is to say I've watched no footage of either one of them. Nonetheless, I feel pretty confident in saying that any attempt by the football chattering class to act like there is some doubt that the Colts will take Luck #1 and the Redskins will take RGIII #2 is purely borne out of the fact that otherwise the draft would be pretty boring for them to talk about - and they might actually have to start doing work like thinking about who the Vikings will draft #3. Why expand the canvas if you can nominate a couple of contrarians and manufacture a debate where there isn't one?

[Mexal]

Mack Kilimaro, on 24 March 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

I've watched equal amounts of footage on Luck and RGIII, which is to say I've watched no footage of either one of them. Nonetheless, I feel pretty confident in saying that any attempt by the football chattering class to act like there is some doubt that the Colts will take Luck #1 and the Redskins will take RGIII #2 is purely borne out of the fact that otherwise the draft would be pretty boring for them to talk about - and they might actually have to start doing work like thinking about who the Vikings will draft #3. Why expand the canvas if you can nominate a couple of contrarians and manufacture a debate where there isn't one?

Funny enough, the Vikings are as set as #1 and #2. They are going to take Kalil.

As for Luck vs RG3, there is no real comparison when it comes to who the Colts will take. Luck will be the pick and he's the right pick. You cannot underestimate his football intelligence. It is as high as any prospect I have ever seen. Everything else about him is elite as well but it's his football IQ that puts him over the edge. RG3, while athletically strong, will not have the same football IQ due to the system he ran. Luck is the safer pick and it's why you make it.

[Howdyphillip]

I would be willing to bet that one of the two QB's will be considered a bust. A franchise QB in the first round is the exception rather than the rule.I have not watched Luck play nearly as much as i have watched RGIII (I have caught every game for the last two years.), so my opinion is obviously biased.

I have never seen a QB with as much raw skill and talent as RGIII. Every single week, my jaw would hit the ground watching this guy play. I have never seen a guy with as strong an arm throw so accurately. He routinely placed 60 yard passes in receivers pockets like he was handing off the ball. He is an Olympic speed runner, and can move in the pocket as good as anyone. Not only can he evade the rush and make grown men look like children, he looks downfield while he is doing so, and will find the open receiver. (by open, I mean double covered with a six inch window to place the ball, and he gets it there almost every time.)

I have a HUGE man crush on this guy. He is the closest thing to a superhero that has ever played this game. Not only that, but he is smart enough to make it into law school.

I can not even fathom him not having a stellar career. My only hope is of Irsay to realize this, and make him the number 1 over all pick. Otherwise, my worst nightmare will come true, and he will become a Washington Racist Name.

[arrowfan]

Well there's a wide range between them becoming an elite QB and bust. While every one hopes for a future hall of famer when they get their first rounder... I don't think Stafford (Lions) or Smith (49ers) could be considered bust.

I'm not sure what the exact stats are but I think it's about 50/50 for elite QBs to come from the first round as opposed to later rounds.  Hell, Brady was a 6th round draft pick.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Barring a career shortening injury, both of these guys will be top ten QBs for a long time to come. My only worry with Luck is that he's going to get killed behind a crappy line.

[Trebla]

FFS.

http://espn.go.com/b...s-got-off-lucky

Quote

John Mara, the owner of the New York Giants and the chairman of the NFL Management Committee, which imposed $46 million worth of salary-cap penalties on the Washington Redskins and the Dallas Cowboys for the way those teams structured contracts during the uncapped 2010 season, just walked through the lobby of The Breakers here on the day before the start of the NFL's annual meetings. Let's just say he's not having second thoughts.

"I thought the penalties imposed were proper," Mara said. "What they did was in violation of the spirit of the salary cap. They attempted to take advantage of a one-year loophole, and quite frankly, I think they're lucky they didn't lose draft picks."
"We all knew the cap would come back," Mara said. "We were not going to enter into any agreement with the NFLPA if there was not a salary cap in it."
----------------

Outside of the NFL, which has its own agreed upon and collectively bargained rules regarding collusion, what the league did in 2010 would be regarded as collusive behavior -- all of the business owners in an industry conspiring and agreeing to limit the earnings of the workers in that industry. But Mara laughed off the word "collusion" when it was brought up this afternoon.

"This has nothing to do with collusion," he said. "It has to do with teams attempting to gain a competitive advantage through a loophole in the system. They attempted to take advantage of it knowing full well there would be consequences. There was nothing wrong with the individual contracts, but when you look at the overall scope of what they did, they were trying to take advantage and they were told not to."

The FUCKING arrogance.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Trebla, on 25 March 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

FFS.

http://espn.go.com/b...s-got-off-lucky



The FUCKING arrogance.

Unreal. That the owner of a divisional opponent should be leading that charge adds another layer of bullshit to the mix. Good catch, Trebla. This is one time I have to root for Jerry Jones. I hope his lawyers roast the NFL over the coals.

[viniS]

Jaime L, on 24 March 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

So Merrill Hoge after a supposed 120 hours of film study is on record saying that he likes RGIII better as a QB than Luck. But that you gotta take with a grain of salt because Hoge has suffered many, many concussions. But now Greg Cosell of NFL Network has done his film work and he's only adding to the drumbeat for RGIII as the #1 overall. He says RGIII has better arm strength, better accuracy on deep balls, better at creating YAC for his receivers, better at throwing from different arm angles and has better composure in the pocket. About the only thing he gives the edge to Luck is the ability to make adjustments at the line of scrimmage and the fact he just kills it with the Sunday New York Times crossword puzzle every week.

Y'know to some extent we knew this was going to happen. If you have a clear #1 guy you need to find stories that pick apart what he does so you can create some drama leading up to draft day. That's what happened with Ryan Leaf who despite the hype was never in the same league as Peyton Manning as a prospect. Arm strength alone shouldn't be able to counter being deficient everywhere else. This however is a little different because everything I see indicates RGIII is not only in the same class as Luck but capable of being more spectacular of a player, if perhaps, less steady and more injury prone. But Hoge and Cosell's comments set the stage for public perception to start shifting on this.and my concern as the drumbeat gets louder is that the Colts start buying in. Hell, it's happening to me too. As RGIII's stock continues to rise I get more excited about his potential as a Redskin but hand-in-hand with that I also get more concerned that his stock is rising to the point he doesn't make it to #2. Again, that just means Luck does, which would still make me intensely happy. Was only like 4 months ago I was completely bitter at the Colts for finding a way to fall ass-backwards into both Manning and Luck, the two premier QB prospects of our time (and not having to give up 3 first rounders to get either.......). It's just that everything has linked RGIII to the Skins thus far so that's where I've pinned all my hopes. We need this guy to be a savior, especially as we mortgaged multiple drafts on him. I'd be shocked if both don't become very good QBs in this league, but if one doesn't, man the stakes couldn't be any higher.

We still got a month to the draft - an eternity as far as these things going. We saw the fuck all that conventional wisdom was good for with the Peyton Manning and then the Tim Tebow situation. These are confusing times. And I'm just waiting for that Schefter tweet saying Colts brass "undecided between RGIII and Luck". God bless football - where even unequivocally good things can make you a Woody Allen level of neurotic.

No, Luck is the better pick. He displayed unprecidented pro-talents (timing routes, superb ball-placement) and pro-tendancies (calling his own plays) while throwing to recievers that couldn't get open if the DB's stayed on the sidelines.

In several games I never once saw Luck throwing to college-open recievers. (College-open meaning that in college a WR has space between himself and the DB before the ball is thrown.) But consistently saw him throwing strikes to players who were absolutely blanketed in coverage.

I never saw a RGIII game, but in every highlight I've seen (not good, because even Timmy-T looks good in a highlight reel), he's throwing the bomb to hit a guy who's wide open. There's nothing wrong with hitting the wide-open guy, but even in the highlight reels Luck is never thowing to a guy who's got seperation between himself and the DB. Thus, I have to assume that Luck is the more talented player due to the fact that he was having the same amount of success with vastly inferior talent.

It's another freakish comparison to Peyton Manning. Marvin Harrison is the only player Peyton Manning has thrown to in is pro-career who ever got decent seperation from the DB by using physical talents.

Reggie Wayne is a great player, but he isn't an outstanding physical specimen, so his and Peyton's success is a byproduct of Wayne being a great route-runner and having super-focus, and Peyton having the most accurate arm in the NFL. A similar comparison would be Tom Brady-Wes Welker, though Welker is deceptively quick and can slip into a 6th gear when you're not looking (ask Kyle Wilson about that).

The RGIII film I've seen reminds me more of Tom Brady-Randy Moss. It didn't take a whole lot of skill for Tom Brady to force-feed Randy Moss 23 touchdowns. The guy was either inexplicably wide-open all the time, or just climbed a step-ladder to snatch the ball out of the air. It's not saying that Tom Brady is less-skilled than Peyton Manning because he had a better target to throw to, but it is necessary to give Manning the edge in comparisons.

Mexal, on 24 March 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

Funny enough, the Vikings are as set as #1 and #2. They are going to take Kalil.

As for Luck vs RG3, there is no real comparison when it comes to who the Colts will take. Luck will be the pick and he's the right pick. You cannot underestimate his football intelligence. It is as high as any prospect I have ever seen. Everything else about him is elite as well but it's his football IQ that puts him over the edge. RG3, while athletically strong, will not have the same football IQ due to the system he ran. Luck is the safer pick and it's why you make it.

Exactly. Not to mention that he did the same with less.

Howdyphillip, on 25 March 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

I would be willing to bet that one of the two QB's will be considered a bust. A franchise QB in the first round is the exception rather than the rule.I have not watched Luck play nearly as much as i have watched RGIII (I have caught every game for the last two years.), so my opinion is obviously biased.

I have never seen a QB with as much raw skill and talent as RGIII. Every single week, my jaw would hit the ground watching this guy play. I have never seen a guy with as strong an arm throw so accurately. He routinely placed 60 yard passes in receivers pockets like he was handing off the ball. He is an Olympic speed runner, and can move in the pocket as good as anyone. Not only can he evade the rush and make grown men look like children, he looks downfield while he is doing so, and will find the open receiver. (by open, I mean double covered with a six inch window to place the ball, and he gets it there almost every time.)

I have a HUGE man crush on this guy. He is the closest thing to a superhero that has ever played this game. Not only that, but he is smart enough to make it into law school.

I can not even fathom him not having a stellar career. My only hope is of Irsay to realize this, and make him the number 1 over all pick. Otherwise, my worst nightmare will come true, and he will become a Washington Racist Name.

No, RGIII is a natural #1 pick. He's one of those players who comes out and is about as good as it gets at the Quarterback position coming out of college. Andrew Luck just happens to be coming out at the same time, and just happens to be better.

arrowfan, on 25 March 2012 - 03:15 AM, said:

Well there's a wide range between them becoming an elite QB and bust. While every one hopes for a future hall of famer when they get their first rounder... I don't think Stafford (Lions) or Smith (49ers) could be considered bust.

I'm not sure what the exact stats are but I think it's about 50/50 for elite QBs to come from the first round as opposed to later rounds.  Hell, Brady was a 6th round draft pick.

Stafford threw for 40 touchdowns and over 5,000 yards last season. He is not a bust.

Alex Smith is a good example of what you're saying, though. I agree with that.

Trebla, on 25 March 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

FFS.

http://espn.go.com/b...s-got-off-lucky



The FUCKING arrogance.

That's outrageous. And made even worse by the fact that Jon Mara is a partial owner of the Giants, how the fuck was that missed when the penalties were first doled out? To me that's the biggest story here.

By the way:

I wrote this post while sitting in a vehicle and suffering from a headache, so if any of it seems more disjointed than usual , particularly the comparison between RGIII and Andrew Luck, I'm sure I'll straighten it out when I get home. Sorry if I made less sense than usual

[Jaime L]

Yeah, I mean I agree with y'all and I do think at the end of the day, the Colts will take Luck for all the reasons cited. But I do think it has shifted from being an absolute, no doubt, sure thing to just like an 80% likelihood.

Mexal, on 24 March 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

As for Luck vs RG3, there is no real comparison when it comes to who the Colts will take. Luck will be the pick and he's the right pick. You cannot underestimate his football intelligence. It is as high as any prospect I have ever seen. Everything else about him is elite as well but it's his football IQ that puts him over the edge. RG3, while athletically strong, will not have the same football IQ due to the system he ran. Luck is the safer pick and it's why you make it.

Agree that football intelligence is the single most important quality for a QB. What was interesting and unexpected was that Cosell was arguing Luck was the bigger system QB in the way he was "managed and manipulated by the offense". Whatever that means. I think he's trying to make the case the other way - that RGIII isn't a system QB in the way spread QBs generally are because of his precision as a passer.

Trebla, on 25 March 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

FFS.

http://espn.go.com/b...s-got-off-lucky



The FUCKING arrogance.

Liked what Florio saying about it being the wrong message and the wrong messenger. And every time I read about some league rep talking about how the Cowboys and the Redskins were violating competitive balance I want to smack the guy. What the fuck do you think teams in the NFL are in this for? Everyone wants to beat the brains out of everyone else. Guess what - Tom Brady is the single biggest destroyer of competitive balance in the league because his presence means the Pats get all the wins and the Bills get hardly any. Maybe we should dock his pay.

So instead it comes down to these mealy mouthed terms like that the two teams violated the "spirit" of the salary cap. Which is a bizarre statement in reference to a collectively bargained uncapped year. Let alone the fact it admits as the NFL has been admitting from the beginning that the teams violated no actual rules. If it was going to be a bad thiong to do what the Cowboys and Redskins did, or if there was some fear that such actions violated competitive balance, maybe they shouldn't have collectively bargained it in the last CBA. FFS.

[Lightning Lord]

Jaime L, on 25 March 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

Liked what Florio saying about it being the wrong message and the wrong messenger. And every time I read about some league rep talking about how the Cowboys and the Redskins were violating competitive balance I want to smack the guy. What the fuck do you think teams in the NFL are in this for? Everyone wants to beat the brains out of everyone else. Guess what - Tom Brady is the single biggest destroyer of competitive balance in the league because his presence means the Pats get all the wins and the Bills get hardly any. Maybe we should dock his pay.

So instead it comes down to these mealy mouthed terms like that the two teams violated the "spirit" of the salary cap. Which is a bizarre statement in reference to a collectively bargained uncapped year. Let alone the fact it admits as the NFL has been admitting from the beginning that the teams violated no actual rules. If it was going to be a bad thiong to do what the Cowboys and Redskins did, or if there was some fear that such actions violated competitive balance, maybe they shouldn't have collectively bargained it in the last CBA. FFS.

So what you're saying is, you take issue with the Cowboys and B Potatoes being penalized for not following rules that didn't exist?  You are such a homer, dude.  What next, you'll bitch and moan about how your team is penalized preemptively for tackling quarterbacks?  Everyone knows that in 2020 it will be a strictly two-hand-touch-on-the-QB league.  (this rule will be test-run on Tom Brady this year)

The Blanched Tomatoes need to get with it and start obeying the imaginary rules and regulations.

[kalbear]

Quote

A franchise QB in the first round is the exception rather than the rule.

Not actually true. Of the first round picks we've had for QB in the last 10 years, most are still playing for the team that drafted them. We have the Manning/Rivers/Roethlisberger draft where any of them were awesome. We have Matt Ryan. Jay Cutler was clearly a franchise Qb despite beingg traded. Cam Newton's a clear #1 despite only being there a year. Josh Freeman is still a franchise QB. Matt Stafford. Aaron Rodgers. Sam Bradford. Joe Flacco. Carson Palmer.

Then there's the maybes like Gabbert and Ponder and Locker. Or Sanchez. Or Leftwich, thoguh he probably qualfiies.

The ones that weren't: Carr and Harrington and Ramsay, Alex Smith (who meets the definition, but isn't that great). Russell and Brady Quinn. Young and Leinart. JP Losman (seriously, he was a #1). Kyle Boller. And, of course, Tim  Tebow.

So it's pretty close. Similarly, the starting QBs in the league are about 50% #1s and 50% not. Now, that has a lot to do with you picking the QB as #1; they'll be given more leeway in not sucking  for a while. But otherwise? It's a good shot to be a franchise Qb if you're a first round pick.

[viniS]

ĶӓḷƁҿӑȑ, on 25 March 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

Not actually true. Of the first round picks we've had for QB in the last 10 years, most are still playing for the team that drafted them. We have the Manning/Rivers/Roethlisberger draft where any of them were awesome. We have Matt Ryan. Jay Cutler was clearly a franchise Qb despite beingg traded. Cam Newton's a clear #1 despite only being there a year. Josh Freeman is still a franchise QB. Matt Stafford. Aaron Rodgers. Sam Bradford. Joe Flacco. Carson Palmer.

Then there's the maybes like Gabbert and Ponder and Locker. Or Sanchez. Or Leftwich, thoguh he probably qualfiies.

The ones that weren't: Carr and Harrington and Ramsay, Alex Smith (who meets the definition, but isn't that great). Russell and Brady Quinn. Young and Leinart. JP Losman (seriously, he was a #1). Kyle Boller. And, of course, Tim  Tebow.

So it's pretty close. Similarly, the starting QBs in the league are about 50% #1s and 50% not. Now, that has a lot to do with you picking the QB as #1; they'll be given more leeway in not sucking  for a while. But otherwise? It's a good shot to be a franchise Qb if you're a first round pick.

There's nothing "maybe" about Mark Sanchez. He is the definition of suck.

[grozeng]

I had 2 weeks of stomach viruses passing through my house.  I still have no proof, but I think it was directly linked to Tebow signing with the Jets.  Haven't been avoiding this thread (people in the Fantasy Baseball leagues can back me up here).  But I am thoroughly disgusted with my team.  I am dreading reading all the posts.  I am sure you all had a lot of fun.

[Triskele]

Sivin, on 25 March 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

There's nothing "maybe" about Mark Sanchez. He is the definition of suck.

That's too harsh.  He has had some pretty amazing early post-season success.

Yes, he threw way too many picks last year, but so did Eli Manning.

My point is not that I'm sold on Sanchez.  I would agree with Kal in putting him in the "maybe" category (and I'm not too bullish).  But I think the definition of suck is far below where Sanchez is.  See Losman, JP.

[viniS]

grozeng, on 25 March 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

I had 2 weeks of stomach viruses passing through my house.  I still have no proof, but I think it was directly linked to Tebow signing with the Jets.  Haven't been avoiding this thread (people in the Fantasy Baseball leagues can back me up here).  But I am thoroughly disgusted with my team.  I am dreading reading all the posts.  I am sure you all had a lot of fun.

The Sinister Kid, on 25 March 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

That's too harsh.  He has had some pretty amazing early post-season success.

Yes, he threw way too many picks last year, but so did Eli Manning.

My point is not that I'm sold on Sanchez.  I would agree with Kal in putting him in the "maybe" category (and I'm not too bullish).  But I think the definition of suck is far below where Sanchez is.  See Losman, JP.

Joe Flacco is "maybe". In fact, he's the definition of "maybe", he doesn't suck, he isn't good, and if you're fucked-up enough and no one else is interested maybe you'll take a pass at him.

Mark Sanchez couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat, because he's too damn incompetent to get the damn thing off dry land. He is the pinnacle of bad.

I'd honestly rather have Tim Tebow as my quarterback than Sanchez. Because at least with Tebow it'll not only be amusing to watch him flounder, but in the back of your mind you can say "Fuck, if anyone can conjure enough bullshit to turn this train-wreck into success, it's him...". With El Shitbox, you know you're in for a day of shit with no chance of improving to awful.

[Lightning Lord]

Sivin, that's just not true.  Most of the time, he's a big ol' El Shitbox.  But every now and again, he has a decent game.  He's even had some good games.  Not many, not enough to justify the extension he got this offseason, not enough to stop looking for an upgrade, but he's not the bottom of the barrel.