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HotU showed the Red Wedding ... or did it?


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Thank you for clarifying about the crown. This means we have no reason to suspect it wasn't Robbs crown that was put on Grey Wind's head (might have been a different one, but there is absolutely no hint to it). Which means that if Dany's vision shows Red Wedding and not some repeat of it there is something symbolic about the change.

Robb's crown couldn't have been on Grey Wind's head because we see Robb's crown again twice in Feast. When Jamie meets Ser Ryman Frey's queen of whores, she is wearing Robb's crown - "On her head a circlet of hammered bronze sat askew, graven with runes and ringed with small black swords." And when Brienne meets Lady Stoneheart - "In her hands was a crown, a bronze circlet ringed by iron swords."

The BWB killed Ser Ryman and all of his party when they were trying to return to the Twins from the siege of Riverrun. LS must have gotten Robb's crown then.

So since we know Robb's true crown is out there, it is possible a quickly made iron crown was nailed onto Grey Wind's head so the Freys could keep Robb's real crown.

Jeyne Westerling still had her crown after the Red Wedding, but by the time Jamie meets her, her mother had taken it from her. 'Her [Jeyne] face was puffy, and there was a scab on her forehead, half-hidden by a lock of brown hair. "What happened there?" he [Jamie] asked. (a couple sentences later) "She would not give up the little crown the rebel gave her, and when I tried to take it from her head the willful child fought me."

I didn't bring this up because I don't think there are alternatives to Dany's vision, but I just did a Feast reread and came across this information that shows Robb's crown did not end up on Grey Wind's head.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Strongly disagree... i think its easy to overthink these things, as people who are waiting years for the next book will tend to do.

Using the same line you could say say that Dany's vision of taking Mereen wasn't actually taking Mereen, because int he vision they said mother, while in real life they said 'Mhysa' or some such word, which meant mother. Therefore clearly there will be another scene with crowds of people calling her mother, but inher own tongue.

The RW fits so well, its not going to be shaken by a few minor differences. Robb had a wolf's head sewed to his body... could it be more clear who it was referring to? There are also very small details that were identical. For example, the wolf-headed guy looked at Dany with mute appeal. And right before Catelyn killed Jinglebell he looked at her with mute appeal. The exact same phrase used.

This is my take as well. I remember reading this thread a while back, and it kind of stuck with me. When I read the RW for the first time the other night I immediately noticed the phrase mute appeal in regards to Jinglebell. IMO, this points towards the theory that the image is a combination of different parts of the RW in one picture. Still, the OP raises some interesting questions about the less obvious symbolism in the vision. Here is my take.

HotU:

Farther on she came upon a feast of corpses. Savagely slaughtered, the feasters lay strewn across overturned chairs and hacked trestle tables, asprawl in pools of congealing blood.

Some had lost limbs, even heads. Severed hands clutched bloody cups1, wooden spoons, roast fowl2, heels of bread3. in a throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf. He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in one hand as a king might hold a scepter, and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal.

1) Can almost be translated as Alcohol was used to disarm them, as getting the northerners drunk before the attack was part of the plan.

- In the chapter Cat notes that

The ale, wine, and mead were flowing as fast as the river outside.

2a) Roast means to heat or cook, but also to criticize or reprimand severely or offer a mocking tribute to (someone) at a roast.

- Walder mocks or roasts Robb in this passage:

“Heh,” Lord Walder cackled at Robb, “the King in the North arises. Seems we killed some of your men, Your Grace. Oh, but I’ll make you an apology, that will mend them all again, heh.-”
And, of course, I consider him to have fulfilled the 'severe reprimand' portion via the plotting and murdering.

2b) Fowl is a type of bird, typically kept for their eggs or flesh. Turkey, duck, goose, etc. An animal that is kept to be slaughtered. Or maybe GRRM meant that Robb's goose was cooked.

3) This almost surely represents the violation of guest rights, IMO. From the wiki:

Hosts were expected to serve guests bread and salt upon arrival, and guests received protection once they had eaten.

I haven't come up with a satisfactory answer for 'wooden spoons'. My initial thought was that the feast lacked the pomp and circumstance expected for such an occasion; e.g., wooden spoons instead of the good silverware.

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I definitely think that Bran's heading toward the dark side of greenseeing/ warging, and I can potentially get on board with this scene's being something other than the RW.

If it's not about the RW, I could see it also applying to Jon. There's been a lot of speculation that he'll pull a Varymyr and survive the assault by warging Ghost, which might fit into the wolf's head image as well. I just skimmed his last chapter to see if there was any reference to wooden plates or the food served in the Shield Hall, and didn't see any...but maybe something in the future?

I could definitely see it being about Jon. That would also explain his "staring at Dany with mute appeal", because I think most people can agree that it's likely Jon and Dany are intended to have a big impact on each other's futures (particularly if we believe R+L=J, which I do)

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I don't think it's Jon, wouldn't he have had a white wolf's head? Something Dany would surely have noted.

If it's not Robb, then it's either Bran, Rickon, or an unknown Stark/bastard (hooded man). This could be the vengeance that someone gets on Roose & Co.

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Good topic, I agree that the vision in the House of the Undying is not about the Red Wedding. The visions, I believe, are central to Dany's story, and the Red Wedding is simply not a part of her story.

Likewise Patchfaces little jingle: "When the fool saw Davos he jerked to a sudden halt, the bells on his antlered helmet going ting-a-ling. Hopping from one foot the the other he sang: "Fool's blood, King's blood, blood on the maiden's thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye aye aye". Everyone has assumed that this prophecy portends the Red Wedding. I contend that it does not.

Why would Patchface stop short upon seeing Davos and break into this ditty? Davos has no involvement with the Events of the Red Wedding. I believe that this prophecy like the prophecy in the House of the Undying is an event that has yet to occur.

Fool's blood refers to Tyrion Lannister. The books are replete with the imagery of "the fool" when dealing with Tyrion. Likewise when Mormont's raven sees Tyrion he stares directly at him and yells "fool" three times.

King's blood refers to Jon Snow. There is King imagery regarding Jon throughout the books. Likewise Mormont's Raven stares at Jon and yells "King" at him three times as well.

Blood on the maidens thigh, I believe, refers to Dany and her dragons. Blood on Dany's thigh is referenced in the Game of Thrones preceding her miscarriage, and is referred to again in Dance with Dragons.

While I'm speculating I believe that these events may refer to a blood ritual Dany will either preside over or be a part of involving Tyrion and Jon to enable them to become dragonriders.

The phrase chains for the bridegroom and chains for the guests, I have a feeling refers to a number of other protaganists (including Davos as one of the "guests") will be unable to become dragon riders (i.e. chained to the ground). The same chain imagery is used when Jojen dreams about Bran, being a winged wolf chained to the Earth.

I think amusingly, Martin has made "the Red Wedding" a "Red Herring" for these two prophecies.

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To the OP.

I believe the vision in the house of the undying was not meant to be the part of the red wedding that we saw take place, but the aftermath. Did the Freys and all involved not feast again after they had slain their enemies? This was when the good food was served, and Grey wind's head was sewn onto Robb's body and it was placed on the high seat for all to see.

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Could be all these things. Bran and Bloodraven. Maybe Bloodraven is a monster. Maybe he needs Bran and is misleading him. Bran is a boy after all. Maybe he is the lamb for slaughter. Certainly Bran and Bloodravens eyes could follow a person... and remember a severed hand was sent to KL in "appeal" for more men for the NW... maybe it means they will appeal to Dany for help against the Others. Maybe it's a combination of an appeal for Dany to leave Westeros alone so someone else can take care of it... the dead could represent the East slaves if she abandons them.

Remember too that the people Mirri Maz Duir comes from are the Lamb People.

Maybe this is a vision including elements of that slaughter. The dead wolf king could represent Drogo, the lamb Rhaego. The mute appeal could be not to trust the witch, a touch of Dany's conscience.

Remember she had the visions after drinking the blue. So this could be partially colored by her own thoughts, desires, and fears... The warlocks are extremely mysterious even yet...

Maybe it is Robb.

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(Replying to the OP)

Great attention to detail, yet I still think the HotU vision was a foreshadowing of the RW. And I'll probably continue to think so until proven otherwise. HOWEVER, the original post got me thinking: "If by chance it's not RW... what else could it be?"

I haven't read all the comments, so I apologise if this has already been stated, but has anyone considered a possible foreshadowing of the fate of Bolton/Ryswell/Dustin hosts in Winterfell? The presence of a wolf king watching with "mute appeal" sort of gives the impression that the King In the North watching as those who betrayed him die around him.

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The vision may have multiple meanings, but I'm quite convinced that one of them was a foreshadowing of the RW. Considering the effort the Freys put into mocking Tully traditions with what they did to Cat's body, staging a tableau like the vision sometime after the slaughter was over is entirely within character for them. I can imagine Walder Frey standing in the balcony gloating as a chained Edmure is forced to look at the scene.

As for why this scene would be important to Dany, I assumed that in one possible alternate future (that now will never happen) Robb would have played an important role in Dany's life. The Undying can show visions of "...days gone by and days to come and days that never were." I automatically extended that to include "days that will never be", I guess.

I strongly doubt there will another RW, in Westeros at least. Everyone will be on guard now. They will realize that once a taboo is broken, it's much easier to break it a second time, especially when there has been no immediate retribution for the first violation. Only an idiot would fail to take precautions. The Essos scanario would be different, of course, but why would GRRM dilute the horror of the RW by staging another (unless it comes off as a mockery of the first)?

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In addition to the Stark-centric theories posited upthread, here's an additional possibility: other than Theon's iron crown, the only "iron crown" I think we've ever seen is found in Euron Greyjoy's personal sigil. Given the Greyjoys' intentions vis a vis Dany as of ADWD, this could be relevant in future books. Remember what Victarion saw Euron do to Lord Hewett during a feast in AFFC, after the Ironborn took over Oakenshield?

Lord Hewett's fate, which Victarion saw as a symbolic demonstration of Euron's power, might be relevant to future events, especially given Victarion's location. Lord Hewett "presides" over a feast (that's actually being thrown by the Ironborn, who've taken over his castle), but he's basically a dead man at this point, as Euron has no intention of letting him live. Lord Hewett is explicitly capable of seeing but has been rendered mute (and as he's tied up, he cannot move any body part except for his eyes---and the king in the HOTU vision never moves any body part but his eyes). We know one rather Ironborn-esque person in Meereen---Daario---explicitly brought up the idea, at some length, of gathering the Meereenese nobility together on some celebratory pretext and then slaughtering them, and I wouldn't be surprised if the same idea occurs to Victarion if he does make it inside the Meereenese city walls. We know that Meereen is absolutely filled with animal-head masks (including wolf's-head masks---the Shavepate wears one at one point, IIRC), and the "wolf-headed king" in the vision might actually symbolize a king wearing a wolf's-head Brazen Beast mask.

We know Victarion has pretty severe Euron-issues, and has been trying to symbolically one-up his brother quite frequently as of late. We know that an iron crown is heavily associated with Euron, as it's part of his personal sigil. We know that Victarion begrudges Euron his crown, and has also made it clear he's planning on getting future revenge against the Northmen (whom the Ironborn love to call "wolves"). We know Victarion isn't planning on leaving Hizdahr alive. Victarion Greyjoy seems far more likely to directly intersect with Dany's storyline than does Robb Stark or the Red Wedding fallout, and I've seen a lot of speculation elsewhere about why, exactly, HIzdahr never seems to appear in the HOTU visions.

Well, maybe he did. The dead wolf-headed king might be a Stark . . . or he might represent King Hizdahr's fate after Victarion gets his hands on him, a fate fueled by Victarion's desire to copy and one-up Euron (while simultaneously creating a symbol of his oft-stated intention of getting revenge in the future against the wolf-associated Northmen), a fate specifically inspired by both Euron's iron crown-sigil and by Lord Hewett's fate at the Ironborn's feast on Oakenshield.

Say Victarion successfully smashes the beseiging fleet at Meereen. He comes into the city looking for Dany, can't find her, but does get his hands on Hizdahr. Hizdahr has to die (and Dany be widowed) for Victarion's plans to be fulfilled. But Victarion wants to make some symbolic points as well. Being Victarion, he does it in a particularly Victarion-esque way. We know he's been slaughtering slavers in order to (as far as he knows) get on Dany's good side, and Victarion's mode of thought strikes me as being rather similar to Daario's. So Victarion does what Daario once urged Dany to do---after Yunkai's defeat, Victarion comes into the city and invites the slavers to a celebratory feast---and takes that opportunity to slaughter them all. At the feast, Victarion stages a re-enactment of Lord Hewett's fate, with Hizdahr as Lord Hewett, but with the addition of 1) an iron crown on Hizdahr's head, symbolizing (to Victarion) his plans to defeat Euron at Euron's own game, and 2) a wolf's-head Brazen Beast mask over Hizdahr's face, symbolizing (to Victarion) the revenge he's going to take on the wolf-associated Northmen once he has the aid of Dany/dragons.

Not set in stone, obviously. But if Victarion doesn't die in the battle for Meereen, and if the city doesn't end up being burned to the ground by the dragons, then I could easily see Victarion staging the "scene" Dany sees in the HOTU, as basically one giant "Fuck You" to everyone (Euron and the Northmen) Victarion wants to destroy. And it would certainly make more sense for Dany to see the fate of her husband and a group of people she ruled over as Queen in the HOTU than it would for her to see a slaughter that had nothing to do with her on a completely different continent.

I have read on this forum that you may well be GRRM :cool4: If this happens then it is all but confirmed!!! I enjoyed this thread very much and it has given me a lot to think about.

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The whole argument is assuming that what Dany sees in a house of deception under the effects of a hallucinogenic drug has to match up just right with what happened at the Red Wedding in order for it to be a vision of the Red Wedding. Nice attention to detail, but just saying that a few details don't match up doesn't mean that the conclusion of "vision = RW" is off the mark.

Yep, it may NOT be the RW. But it might. Up until now, the RW is the closest thing we have to that vision, so I don't see what is wrong with saying that it's probably the RW.

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I had always associated the HotU hallucination with the RW, but not exactly the RW. More .... Stark vengeance. The dead man with a wolf's head could be Robb or Bran or Rickon .... or just a Stark in general. I don't think it matters. I always got the feeling, reading back on it, that the vision was meant to foretell the vengeance House Stark will wreak on those conspirators involved with the RW. To me, it was Robb (or House Stark), presiding over a massacre. I didn't get the impression that those body parts belonged to Stark loyalists. The man with the wolf's head seems angry to me; to me, it seemed that he was responsible for those mutilated bodies before him.

I think perhaps the Starks (probably, as many of you believe, Stoneheart) will be responsible for a massacre, and probably at an event that closely resembles the RW but, in fact, is not. The only trouble I have with this theory, is why the man with the wolf's head would look to Dany with mute appeal. Stoneheart, of course, is mute, which is intriguing, but where does Dany fit in the picture? It would be interesting to explore.

*I just want to reiterate that I do not think the man with the wolf's head is a certain Stark, but most likely a personification of the house.

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The vision may have multiple meanings, but I'm quite convinced that one of them was a foreshadowing of the RW. Considering the effort the Freys put into mocking Tully traditions with what they did to Cat's body, staging a tableau like the vision sometime after the slaughter was over is entirely within character for them. I can imagine Walder Frey standing in the balcony gloating as a chained Edmure is forced to look at the scene. <snip>

^ This times infinity.

Logically speaking, if you do not believe that the RW is the correct interpretation of the HotU vision, it means that you think a better explanation does exist, regardless of whether it is apparent to us at this time. But I wonder if that is even realistically possible, because of how well the HotU vision matches up with the RW. I would go so far as to say that if there is only one correct interpretation of the HotU vision, it must be the RW. And if there happens to be more than one correct interpretation, no problem, the RW will be one of them.

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2a) Roast means to heat or cook, but also to criticize or reprimand severely or offer a mocking tribute to (someone) at a roast.

- Walder mocks or roasts Robb in this passage:

Quote

“Heh,” Lord Walder cackled at Robb, “the King in the North arises. Seems we killed some of your men, Your Grace. Oh, but I’ll make you an apology, that will mend them all again, heh.-”

And, of course, I consider him to have fulfilled the 'severe reprimand' portion via the plotting and murdering.

2b) Fowl is a type of bird, typically kept for their eggs or flesh. Turkey, duck, goose, etc. An animal that is kept to be slaughtered. Or maybe GRRM meant that Robb's goose was cooked.

A couple of more comments regarding 2b:

- Fowl could also include chicken, which is synonymous with cowardly behavior. So, roast fowl could be interpreted as Walder Frey mocking and/or reprimanding Robb in a cowardly way; i.e., under the guise of hospitality, alliance and friendship.

- Changing fowl to foul allows roast fowl to become, a foul roast. The RW was, of course, foul in many sense of the word. Literally so, according to the dashboard dictionary on my macbook.

foul |foul|

adjective

1 offensive to the senses, esp. through having a disgusting smell or taste or being unpleasantly soiled : a foul odor | his foul breath.

• informal very disagreeable or unpleasant : the news had put Michelle in a foul mood.

• (of the weather) wet and stormy.

• Sailing (of wind or tide) opposed to one's desired course.

2 wicked or immoral : murder most foul.

• (of language) obscene or profane.

• done contrary to the rules of a sport : a foul tackle.

3 containing or charged with noxious matter; polluted : foul, swampy water.

• [ predic. ] ( foul with) clogged or choked with : the land was foul with weeds.

• Nautical (of a rope or anchor) entangled.

• (of a ship's bottom) encrusted with algae, barnacles, or other marine growth.

• Printing (of a first copy or proof) defaced by corrections.

adverb

unfairly; contrary to the rules.

• (in sports) in foul territory : if a batter hits a bunt foul with two strikes, he is out.

verb [ trans. ]

1 make foul or dirty; pollute : factories that fouled the atmosphere.

• disgrace or dishonor.

• (of an animal) make (something) dirty with excrement : make sure that your pet never fouls the sidewalk.

• (foul oneself) (of a person) defecate involuntarily.

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I think that vision was shown mostly for symbolism, not picture perfect accuracy.

I mean, consider the other vision with the little people biting and attacking the naked woman, meant to symbolize Renly, Stannis, Joffrey, and Robb battling it out in Westeros. Westeros isn't actually a naked woman, and even if it was, Renly wouldn't be anywhere near her. Plus, the only ones that contributed to the actual destruction of some the lands of Westeros were Robb and Joffrey (through Tywin).

My point is, I don't think visions like this are meant to be taken that literally.

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