186 replies to this topic

[hockema56]

Honestly, this wasn't very convincing to me. Well articulated, but I see little there to convince me that prophecy wasn't about the Red Wedding. Most of those are pretty trivial differences, and could probably be explained away by some symbolism we simply aren't privy to quite yet. GRRM loves to use real world symbolism in his fantasy setting, so you never know what culture/religion/society he's going to pull something from. Certainly a plausible theory, but unlikely IMO.

[Ciazio]

Sorry for resurrecting this monthly dead thread, but I just found it and it's - indeed - very intresting.

Obviously there are two possibilities: either the HotU shoved the RW or no.

I think that it was foreshadowing the RW (might be that GRRM changed the details of the feast while writing or - maybe - he did it willingly, to not let us know what was going to happen while reading about the RW), but if I had to bet about an un-happened episode I would bet that it was representing the return of Rickon in Winterfell and the subsequent vengeance:

• Wooden plates -> Manderlys, Boltons and Freys came to WF with camp supplies, and wooden dishes might be the ones soldiers use during campaigns
  
• Simple food -> as we saw in ADWD, supplies are dwindling in WF
  
• Different crown -> Rickon is not probably going to have Robb's crown, maybe Manderly will forge a new one for him
  
• Dead king with wolf head following Dany with eyes -> A Stark king "dead" but not "actually dead" since he follows Dany with eyes. Rickon is believed to be dead, Dany believes the king is dead.
  
• Lamb chop in king's hand -> lamb as symbol of innocence, is the king an innocent boy?

As said before, I think that the vision was foreshadowing the RW (and GRRM playing with our minds), but Manderly's vengeance is up to my second choice.


ETA: Anyway, if the vision is referred to Rickon's return it would mean that Manderly is going to betray Stannis and crown Rickon, since the wolf-man is a king.

Edited by Ciazio, 04 September 2012 - 10:36 AM.

[Davos' fingertip]

But how does 'Iron Crown' and Robb's 'Crown surmounted by Iron Swords' not match? he had a distinctive crown, but i doubt Dany saw everything so clear, so Iron crown does possiblymatch Robb's crown

[angry lettuce]

wow! Kudos to tze for such careful reading of the book!
After reading the threads about the possible symbolism and metaphorical meaning of what Dany saw I decided to do a little research on symbols, just for the fun of it, and here's what I found:
Iron: might symbolize aggression, anger, ruthlessness and conflict.  Also, it might symbolize the fact that Robb was seen as a contender for the Iron throne
Lamb: might symbolize deception. Holding a lamb might symbolize the sacrifices in life.
Wood: might symbolize feeling dead and emotionless
Fowl: worries and disagreements, also a possible pun on the world foul
Bread: symbolizes rising for the occasion, or the basic needs in life.
Also, the hacked off limbs might be a symbol for Jaime (Jaime Lannister sends his regards, or Roose Bolton's connection to vargo hoat who really liked hacking off limbs)
It seems that these things that Dany saw but we dont see in the Red Wedding might have very negative meanings as symbols, and thus add to the scene the feeling of horrid betrayal.
I wouldnt be surprised though, if it ended up being something different altogether!

Edited for typos

Edited by angry lettuce, 04 September 2012 - 10:58 AM.

[Helgar]

If it didn't foreshadow the Red Wedding, what else could it foreshadow? How likely is it there will be another wedding, in which another Stark will participate, who will also be a king, and who will be murdered during the feast? The only three candidates we have are Jon, Bran and Rickon. Jon has already been "killed" once and I don't see how he can pass for a Stark (his theme is very clearly "Snow", as we see in all books and particularly in ADwD), Rickon is too young for his age not to be mentioned in Dany's vision, and Bran, a cripple, is busy being a tree beyond the Wall.

I think it's more likely that the HotU scene was not about the details. There was a feast, a Stark king attended it, and he was murdered along with many of his men. The fault lies with us, the fans, for being so scrutinizing of GRRM's work.

Edited by Helgar, 04 September 2012 - 03:30 PM.

[Ragnorak]

Dany sees the four little men ravishing the woman right before this scene.  That is commonly believed to be the four kings ravaging Westeros.  Immediately after slaughtered feast she runs and sees the house with the red door which she associates with home.  She sees 4 false kings, another king and then runs home.

All of the HotU scenes are Dany related and the Red Wedding is just not a Dany related event.  Dany does see the blue rose in a chink of ice so she has some connection to Jon.  Jon seems to be the best fit for the dead king.

Quote

In a throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf. He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in one hand as a king might hold a scepter, and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal.

The wolf head is almost certainly a Stark and Jon seems to be the one Stark connected to Dany (Bran might be too but that is more oblique.)  The lamb is a sacrificial figure and Mormont's raven repeatedly calls Jon "King" and "Corn King."  A sacrificial sceptre is the perfect symbol for the Corn King.  Jon's wolf is Ghost who is also mute and he may very well be "dead" within a mute wolf's head.  Jon is also the "true King" according to Dany even though she doesn't know it yet, so this fits with being the scene following the four false kings.

The King in the North has a bronze and iron crown.  The only references to an iron crown seem to come from the Iron Islands-- once in a Theon/Balon conversation and the other as Euron's banner that Sam sees.  Skipping trying to fit a round Theon into a square prophecy I think it can still be Jon's crown.  By the end of DwD he seems to be the Wildling King, The King in the North through Robb's will, and the Targ heir to the Iron Throne.  The last one alone could explain the iron crown.

Roast fowl makes at least two appearances as the meal that never was.  Ned is dreaming of roast fowl when he first arrives at KL and is summoned to the Council meeting.  Tyrion orders roast fowl at the Inn before being dragged off by Cat.  If the Great Northern Conspiracy exists and wants Jon as their King in the North this would fit rather well.  Manderly's men return proclaiming a false victory over Stannis, slaughter the Freys and Boltons at the celebration feast intending to crown the stabbed Corn King, Jon.

Can't recall what type of spoons are being used at Winterfell off hand or if it is even said.
Bran eats the weirwood paste with a wooden spoon.

Quote

Catelyn armored her heart against the mute appeal in her husband’s eyes. “They say your friend Robert has fathered a dozen bastards himself.”

Think that is the only other use of "mute appeal" in the series but I could be wrong.

[Evil Jay]

Northern, on 23 March 2012 - 08:09 PM, said:

Some difference in what is mentioned can be accounted for by differences in the narrators.

/Agree.

The vision is the Red Wedding.

[Lisa Rich]

I recently reread this scene (the HotU) and there's also a pointed description of his eyes "appealing" to Dany to help. If this is Robb, Dany can't help him now.

[Florina Stark]

Quote

Bran, a cripple, is busy being a tree beyond the Wall.

Who actually is in the process of having eyes following things everywhere. Its possible that vision wasnt the Red Wedding but something else. You never know.

[Hodor the great]

The dead man with the wolf's head could be bran.  Except for a few people he is dead.

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

Hodor the great, on 04 September 2012 - 06:36 PM, said:

The dead man with the wolf's head could be bran.  Except for a few people he is dead.

Bran isn't dead...

[Florina Stark]

I think he means that only a few people know hes not dead. But he is dead in the minds of everyone else.

[Light a wight tonight]

I'd look for a feast in an upcoming book to match this vision, not try to match it to a feat that has already happened. The details might be more symbolic than realistic, though.

[Florina Stark]

^btw, i love your username!

I agree. Perhaps its all a metaphor.

[LannisterShmannister]

Does the wolf-headed king have to be dead? I mean, the sewed to the body thing could easily be a metaphor. And he's "watching," which sort of makes him sound... alive. For instance, the wolf-headed king watching with mute appeal could translate to Jon, post-death warg into Grey Wind, and him being trapped like that for awhile. He gets resurrected, but lost a part of himself to the wolf and is more bestial.

He rallies the North with brutality, becomes a cruel king with or after defeating Dany. Story ends.

[Hodor the great]

Sorry. Most people think he is dead.

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

I know that some of the details of the vision and the wedding don't add up, I just have a really hard time believing that she didn't see the wedding. Her visions might not always be perfect, we know melisandre has issues deciphering visions and she is trained in it, so Dany's hallucinations might be just not that clear.

[Mirijam]

I wonder if Dany would recognize a wedding for a wedding seeing how she has grown up in the free cities. The wedding pie is just a pie and the cloak is just a cloak that has a bit different shape... if you don't know what to look for, would you notice it just being there? Especially since the pie was to be eaten by many guests so it would be at least partly gone by the end.

I also think that what she sees (it it IS the RW, anyway) is not the feast itself but the aftermath: the guests are already dead (the fact that severed hands hold bread and utensils points to treachery), we know that Freys took great pleasure in exacting vengeance (they took the time to strip Cat naked and throw her in the river to mock Tully burial rites, they took their sweet time sewing Grey Wind's head onto Robb). IMO they would take the time to arrange the lamb leg instead of scepter and the crown on wolf's head.

The throne is a problem, would Walder allow putting dead Robb on his throne? The second problem is the iron crown. Does anybody know how UnCat got hold of Robb's crown? Because, if the Freys didn't have Robb's crown on hand it is possible they hastily made another out of iron (but all this is probably stretching it).

Now, if Dany is not seeing the wedding itself but the aftermath: Jinglebells would be respectfully buried and gone by now, the musicians would also have left, there would be no cloak and no pie, as for the fowl, maybe it was brought after the lamb and just before the fighting started, so it is the only food left untouched to be recognized?

As for why would Dany even see RW, well, Robb and she are both young and trying to rule, they both fail... On a personal level there are parallels. Then, RW is a game changer when it comes to Westros politics, mute appeal could be a dead man asking for justice? If she is the PTWP than it is relevant.

Am I making an UnThread? If it is so, I am sorry.

[sarah.jenice]

Correct me if I am wrong (I don't have Storm of Swords on me) but isn't the crown that the Frey's nail on to Grey Wind's head (sewn onto Robb's body) crudely made of iron? Robb's actual crown is in Jeyne Westerling's possession when Jamie gets to Riverrun but it was not the crown used on the wolf's head when Robb was mocked.

I won't argue that this could be about something else, but I think it's about the Red Wedding. In the same way that Jojen's greendream of Bran and the Walders' feast, not everything in these visions will be exact and the leg of lamb and roast fowl Dany saw might have been some symbolic clue that we're not getting. The vision right before that is of four little men ravaging a woman and biting her. Are we going to see that come to pass in that same exact way or is that a metaphor for something else?

[Black Crow]

There are some interesting interpretations here, but essentially I don't see that comparing the menus proves it isn't the same massacre. After all look at how Jojen "saw" Theon's capture of Winterfell as the sea soming over the walls.