186 replies to this topic

[Errant Bard]

Certainly, and it's the author's goal, too, to not be too precise in matters that are meant to be vague and controversial in-story too.

I'm just arguing, for my part, that a lot of people shoot themselves in the foot trying to find conspiracies and misdirection in every word. If you take into account the books already written, Martin is actually pretty straightforward, some readers go on about "twists" because they expected something more complicated than what happened, 99% of the time.

[Ygrain]

I've always thought that the vision does hint at RW, and is rather symbolic:
a man with a wolf's head: a Stark/warg, plus possibly a hint at the mutilation of Robb's body
his seeing eyes: Robb lives to see the death of his bannermen
a throne, a crown and "sceptre": symbols of a king
an iron crown: the crown of the North
cut-off hands holding food: unsuspecting guests, unarmed, helpless - the same goes for the "lamb sceptre"
the wooden plates: poor service, unfit for a king
bread: guest right (or maybe nothing, since bread was always served at medieval feasts, for multiple purposes, e.g. instead of a plate, or napkin to wipe your fingers on)
fowl: not really sure what that was supposed to mean, if anything; as far as I know, roast fowl is supposed to be a typical feast menu, so maybe just one more point to sow that the massacre happened during a feast?


Nonetheless, I quite like the interpretation that this needn't be RW, or maybe not ONLY the RW. So far, we have had two rather disastrous weddings, and I also think that a third is coming soon, in Riverrun. So, if the vision hints at the horrible wedding tradition that is currently setting foot in Westeros, the fowl could be a hint at Joffrey's pigeons :-)

[voodooqueen126]

Lady of Long Lake, on 23 March 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

That's intersting. I read through both scenes again just now and there's no mention of any fowl that was served. I found lamb mentioned a lot at the end of the feast. It was served right before Edmure and Roslin went upstairs. A leg of lamb was in Wendel Manderlys hand when he turned to Caitlyn and asked her what was wrong- that was the moment when Cairlyn knew it was a mutiny.
I found 1 mention of bread and it was Roose who tore a piece off the loaf so he might have had the heel.

I think the hands might be symbolic, but bear with me because I have trouble recognizing a symbol LOL! The hands in Dany's vision are all holding things: spoons, cups, bread. I think maybe it symbolizes people being killed without provacation and being killed while they ate peacefully. An ambush.

But the roast fowl is weird. There was 2 feasts that night, one inside and one outside. I wonder if they were eating poultry out there?

you know the name Tormund, munda anything Mund... well apparently Mund means hand, but it also means protection.
Atleast in old-english/Anglo-saxon/norse etc.

[butterbumps!]

tze, on 24 March 2012 - 12:29 AM, said:

But then there are all of the other parts that don't literally line up: the king is dead yet following Dany with his eyes, the king is seated on a throne overlooking the slaughter, the king holds a piece of lamb like a scepter, the king wears a crown that's not Robb's crown, the king is looking at Dany with "mute appeal" (where Robb wasn't ever "appealing" to Dany and Robb wasn't mute). And the parts that seemed to so "clearly" show the RW---a slaughter at a feast, a dead king with a wolf's head who's moving his eyes---can actually be fulfilled, quite easily, in other circumstances.

I reread the entire HotU a couple of times just now, and I think there might be an additional argument against this being the RW based on the fact that all of the other visions have something to do directly with Dany's future/ present/ history, whereas the RW really does not so far as we can see.  I'm not sure what she would gain from knowing about the RW, or what knowing about it would lead her to do, unless she has some specific purpose to right the wrong done to the Stark family, or serve as a warning to not violate guest right herself.  I suppose both are possible, but the RW does seem much less relevant to Dany than the other visions, despite its being extremely relevant to readers.  Is there a reason for Dany to see the RW?

I'm not sure I'm shipping yet, but I did think of a couple of interpretive points, not sure how it all fits:
I know Jon is mentioned in the blue flower in ice vision, but I thought I should note that Ghost is the single "mute" wolf we've seen.
That a wolf-king holds a scepter of lamb could just be an Aesop-esque joke-- what else would a wolf hold?

[kissdbyfire]

butterbumps!, on 24 March 2012 - 07:08 AM, said:

I know Jon is mentioned in the blue flower in ice vision, but I thought I should note that Ghost is the single "mute" wolf we've seen.

My understanding of 'mute appeal' is simply that it's an appeal expressed with the eyes and not words, and not necessarily an appeal muttered by a someone who's mute or dead or anything like that...

Mute appeal in 'silent' appeal - definition 1 below:

Adj. 1. mute - expressed without speech; "a mute appeal"; "a silent curse"; "best grief is tongueless"- Emily Dickinson; "the words stopped at her lips unsounded"; "unspoken grief"; "choking exasperation and wordless shame"- Thomas Wolfe
unspoken, wordless, tongueless
inarticulate, unarticulate - without or deprived of the use of speech or words; "inarticulate beasts"; "remained stupidly inarticulate and saying something noncommittal"; "inarticulate with rage"; "an inarticulate cry"      2. mute - unable to speak because of hereditary deafness
dumb, silent
inarticulate, unarticulate - without or deprived of the use of speech or words; "inarticulate beasts"; "remained stupidly inarticulate and saying something noncommittal"; "inarticulate with rage"; "an inarticulate cry"

Edited by Kissdbyfire, 24 March 2012 - 07:43 AM.

[tze]

ManyFacedOne, on 24 March 2012 - 01:10 AM, said:

There's some things that should be and some things that shouldn't. Why should a man with a wolf's head sewn on him -- clearly dead, I imagine, at this point -- still be able to move his eyes?

Dany's vision: "in a throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf . . . and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal."

Bran, on the enthroned Singers in Bloodraven's hollow hill: "Most of them looked dead to him, but as he crossed in front of them their eyes would open and follow the light of his torch, and one of them opened and closed a wrinkled mouth as if he were trying to speak."

Edited by tze, 24 March 2012 - 08:01 AM.

[Ygrain]

Now that I think of it, if Dany ever conquers Westeros and puts her ass on the Iron Throne, she will be the one in position to punish Lord Walder's crime. "Mute appeal" then could be a plea for justice..

[ServantOnIce]

@OP no way . . Danny's Vision was definitely the Red Wedding . . . this is as bad as when I asked if Ygritte was the Wight in the prologue of "Dance With Dragons"  . . ..  I take pleasure in that Martin clearly explains many things in this series and yet folks because either they are bored, or just like to get wacky come up with garbage theories that make no sense.

I am not Martin expert but when he says "2 + 2 = 4" it equals 4 . .  .

Also, as Theon mentioned in "Clash of Kings" when he is having a feast with the dead and Robb and Grey Wind come in and both have multiple wounds and they attack him ..  

Martin let people know what was coming . .  .it was just a part of the story and a good part, a ballsy part that no one will ever have the ability to again, Martin hit a world series grand slam winning home run with the deaths of Eddard and the Red Wedding .  .

[butterbumps!]

Kissdbyfire, on 24 March 2012 - 07:37 AM, said:

My understanding of 'mute appeal' is simply that it's an appeal expressed with the eyes and not words, and not necessarily an appeal muttered by a someone who's mute or dead or anything like that...

I agree...I'd always read the scene as simply meaning an appeal that was "unspoken."   I was giving this possibility due diligence, but I think I ultimately I believe that was a scene of the RW.  I think it's an interesting point that the this scene seems to have no direct correlation to Dany the way the other "room" scenes do, as well as the fact that the other throne contenders are depicted in the later "flash visions" with the corrupted heart.  But Martin's known about the RW "twist" for a long time coming, and so this scene might have been fleshed out more thoroughly (though not 100% so in terms of details) than the flash images of the "blue eyed man without a shadow" and the "dead man on a prow."

I don't know about anyone else, but I pictured the other "room" scenes as "live action," so to speak, whereas the feast scene always came to my mind as a static oil painting, like one of the Dutch Master's "vanitas" (a symbolic still-life painting associated with the transience of life, i.e. death).  If someone were to paint the RW, I think what we see described is actually very close to what I'd imagine in terms of symbolism (I agree with the earlier points of lamb scepter = being led to the slaughter), composition, the unspoken appeal.

[Bride of Winter]

mute appeal doesn't actually mean mute. iirc it's even how Catelyn described Jinglebell's eyes ("lulling back in mute appeal") as she held the dagger to his throat.

anyway, I'm in the not-RW camp, and basically I have two main theories.

1) Assuming the man with the wolf's head is Robb - Cat and the BWB will pull a RW part two at the Lannister/Frey wedding. What's really holding me back from believing the vision was the RW is that Robb's body is described so on point with what happened at the wedding, but he was not sitting on the throne at the RW. The key to pretty much the entire Red Wedding was that he wasn't above the massacre in any way - he was murdered just as everyone else was. He had absolutely no control. you can't overlook this. Walder Frey was in a position of complete power at the RW; since the day Robb entered the Twins he was just doing what he could to get by and make it out alive. Therefore I firmly believe that if the king is Robb, it symbolizes his presence at the next RW - the Starks being the ones holding the power, and the revenge being exacted in his name. Plus it would be nice to see the "King with the Wolf's head" that the Freys made in mockery of Robb come back to haunt them.

2) If it is not Robb, it could be any of the Starks in a much more metaphorical way. They've all been described as wolves before and it wouldn't be a stretch to see any of them being metaphorically shown as having the head of one. Though mute appeal =/= Ghost necessarily, I do believe the "king" would be Jon. Perhaps the revenge he's getting in his family's name? Idk, details of that one are still a bit sticky.

[lostinwesteros]

This is neither here nor there, really, but I'm of the persuasion that the Red Wedding was foretold in the HOTU 'prophecy' -  just my opinion based on how I view symbolism and after reading the posts of this thread (I'm don't wish to argue semantics or to presume that my view is 'right')

AND

I think that Errant Bard in Reply #41 above does make an excellent point, i.e., that we often do tend to read too much into things, trying to 'find conspiracies and misdirection in every word'

AND

With that said, I do realize that what I'm about to write probably means that I'm jumping right into reading too much into things and trying to find conspiracies and misdirection in every word , but I'll write it anyway because it just occurred to me in reading this thread and I'm curious as to what others might think.  

One of the posters above quoted from the part of the Red Wedding where, "The servers were bringing out huge silver platters piled high with cuts of juicy pink lamb, the most appetizing dish they'd seen all evening."  This was just prior to the bedding ceremony following which the betrayal/murders took place and stands in contrast to the description early on, "The wedding feast began with a thin leek soup . . .mashed turnips that were cold . . .jellied calves' brains, and . . . stringy beef.  It was a poor fare to set before a king."  It brought to mind the story told of the water being turned into wine when the wine ran out so that the wedding guests wondered why the best wine had been saved until last, etc.  So . . . what popped into my mind was, horror upon horrors, that Greywind had just been slaughtered and was being served up as the 'juicy pink lamb'.  A totally chilling thought, for me, but one that seems in keeping with the Freys here.  

Does anyone think that might be plausible?

[kissdbyfire]

butterbumps!, on 24 March 2012 - 08:57 AM, said:

I don't know about anyone else, but I pictured the other "room" scenes as "live action," so to speak, whereas the feast scene always came to my mind as a static oil painting, like one of the Dutch Master's "vanitas" (a symbolic still-life painting associated with the transience of life, i.e. death).  If someone were to paint the RW, I think what we see described is actually very close to what I'd imagine in terms of symbolism (I agree with the earlier points of lamb scepter = being led to the slaughter), composition, the unspoken appeal.

How awesome would it be to see that scene in the vision painted by someone like Dirck van Baburen or Vermeer?

[A Free Shadow]

OldOne, on 24 March 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

One of the posters above quoted from the part of the Red Wedding where, "The servers were bringing out huge silver platters piled high with cuts of juicy pink lamb, the most appetizing dish they'd seen all evening."  This was just prior to the bedding ceremony following which the betrayal/murders took place and stands in contrast to the description early on, "The wedding feast began with a thin leek soup . . .mashed turnips that were cold . . .jellied calves' brains, and . . . stringy beef.  It was a poor fare to set before a king."  It brought to mind the story told of the water being turned into wine when the wine ran out so that the wedding guests wondered why the best wine had been saved until last, etc.  So . . . what popped into my mind was, horror upon horrors, that Greywind had just been slaughtered and was being served up as the 'juicy pink lamb'.  A totally chilling thought, for me, but one that seems in keeping with the Freys here.  

Does anyone think that might be plausible?

Nope. He was howling right when Robb was being killed.
And wolfs meat does nt look anything like pink lamb.

[Apple Martini]

ServantOnIce, on 24 March 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

@OP no way . . Danny's Vision was definitely the Red Wedding . . . this is as bad as when I asked if Ygritte was the Wight in the prologue of "Dance With Dragons"  . . ..  I take pleasure in that Martin clearly explains many things in this series and yet folks because either they are bored, or just like to get wacky come up with garbage theories that make no sense.

I've seen plenty of wacky garbage theories on there. Even if this ends up being incorrect, it's not one of them. It stimulates conversation and gets people to look deeper into the story. I don't see how that can be a bad thing.

Quote

Also, as Theon mentioned in "Clash of Kings" when he is having a feast with the dead and Robb and Grey Wind come in and both have multiple wounds and they attack him ..  

Martin let people know what was coming . .  .it was just a part of the story and a good part, a ballsy part that no one will ever have the ability to again, Martin hit a world series grand slam winning home run with the deaths of Eddard and the Red Wedding .  .

As you said, the Red Wedding was foreseen in a few other places. So why add Dany's House of the Undying visions to that list? Isn't it kind of superfluous by that point, added together with Theon's dream and Patchface's song and the Ghost of High Heart's visions? As other people have said, the visions in the House of the Undying all seem to directly influence Dany's future, present or past in some way. The visions are important insofar as they relate to her. I don't see what the Red Wedding has to do with her at that point.

Again, it might be the Red Wedding. It probably is. But I see nothing wrong with examining it deeper. If you think it's a garbage idea feel free to not participate.

Edited by Apple Martini, 24 March 2012 - 12:52 PM.

[Errant Bard]

Apple Martini, on 24 March 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

As you said, the Red Wedding was foreseen in a few other places. So why add Dany's House of the Undying visions to that list? Isn't it kind of superfluous by that point, added together with Theon's dream and Patchface's song and the Ghost of High Heart's visions? As other people have said, the visions in the House of the Undying all seem to directly influence Dany's future, present or past in some way.

And why not? The Red Wedding is a pivotal event in casting down the heroes' family, with many layers of significance for her, her goals and her destiny. Why shouldn't it feature in her visions? What should feature, if not that?

What's your rationale for thinking Dany will not get involved with the Stark family? The guys who both need her help to get back the North and save the world, and who are actually the cornerstone of the fight against the Others and likewise "bad guys" will with hundred percent certainty form an alliance with the girl, kickstarted among other things by this vision, just like the Aerys vision will probably play a role down the line too (I expect Brienne to live to tell the tale).

Also, of course, it was the other visions that were added to hers, as the house of the Undyings (middle of ACOK) came before Theon (end of ACOK), the Ghost of High Hearth (ASOS), or Patchface (ASOS).

[Howling Mad]

Apple Martini, on 24 March 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

I've seen plenty of wacky garbage theories on there. Even if this ends up being incorrect, it's not one of them. It stimulates conversation and gets people to look deeper into the story. I don't see how that can be a bad thing.



As you said, the Red Wedding was foreseen in a few other places. So why add Dany's House of the Undying visions to that list? Isn't it kind of superfluous by that point, added together with Theon's dream and Patchface's song and the Ghost of High Heart's visions? As other people have said, the visions in the House of the Undying all seem to directly influence Dany's future, present or past in some way. The visions are important insofar as they relate to her. I don't see what the Red Wedding has to do with her at that point.

Again, it might be the Red Wedding. It probably is. But I see nothing wrong with examining it deeper. If you think it's a garbage idea feel free to not participate.

I for one have enjoyed reading this this thread even if I personnally do not have anything to add or subjtract from the discussion.

[ManyFacedOne]

tze, on 24 March 2012 - 07:52 AM, said:

Dany's vision: "in a throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf . . . and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal."

Bran, on the enthroned Singers in Bloodraven's hollow hill: "Most of them looked dead to him, but as he crossed in front of them their eyes would open and follow the light of his torch, and one of them opened and closed a wrinkled mouth as if he were trying to speak."

And? One group looked dead but wasn't, and the other was clearly dead.

[Apple Martini]

Errant Bard, on 24 March 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

And why not? The Red Wedding is a pivotal event in casting down the heroes' family, with many layers of significance for her, her goals and her destiny. Why shouldn't it feature in her visions? What should feature, if not that?

I still don't see what any of that has to do with Dany.

Quote

What's your rationale for thinking Dany will not get involved with the Stark family? The guys who both need her help to get back the North and save the world, and who are actually the cornerstone of the fight against the Others and likewise "bad guys" will with hundred percent certainty form an alliance with the girl, kickstarted among other things by this vision, just like the Aerys vision will probably play a role down the line too (I expect Brienne to live to tell the tale).

I don't think the Starks need Dany to get the North back. That's frankly kind of insulting to them — it belongs to them, not her, and their allies are actively working to restore them and don't seem to be in desperate need of her help. Given what happens to people Dany tries to "help," I'd tell the Starks to stay away from her.

And I'm not 100% convinced that Dany's destiny is a benevolent one, either. Feel free to disagree, you no doubt do.

Quote

Also, of course, it was the other visions that were added to hers, as the house of the Undyings (middle of ACOK) came before Theon (end of ACOK), the Ghost of High Hearth (ASOS), or Patchface (ASOS).

That's kind of the point — it's not like the Red Wedding wasn't more concretely foretold in other places. How many prophecies did it need to feature in before the point sank in?

[Bayard]

I don't think this theory is correct. There are some strange things.... but there are also so many who fit the RW!!! There will be at least another bloody wedding, but one that fits even better with the prophecy?? No way. Anyway, why I think it was about the RW is because GRRM wanted to have fun with this, to hint at it as much as possible, from multiple sources.... knowing full well, that almost nobody would guess it at a first read.

[lostinwesteros]

A Free Shadow, on 24 March 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

Nope. He was howling right when Robb was being killed.
And wolfs meat does nt look anything like pink lamb.

Thank goodness!  Just a paranoid little fear cropping up there.  Thanks.