69 replies to this topic

[Winter's Knight]

I've started noticing several parallels between Jon and Dany's storylines:

Winterbreath, on 23 March 2012 - 01:59 PM, said:

I tend to put all five audiobooks on shuffle and let it play in the background while I am working as it helps me spot patterns and such. Today, the Jon chapter from ADWD where he is explaining the terms he made with Tormund to the other members of the Night's Watch played right after the Dany chapter in which she is sitting judgement and mentions the blanket pardon.

Two things struck me:
1. Both Jon and Dany issue a blanket pardonfor even the worst of crimes-Dany for the slaves who raped and murdered the boy's parents and Jon for the Weeping Man.
2. Both demanded children as hostages.

It struck me that Jon and Dany's stories are parallels to each other-both end the first book with magical familiars, both their journeys seem to be about preparing them to rule and both end ADWD with the people they were trying to change attempting to kill them.

This i just a thought that struck me-I intend to read their chapters over to see if I can find other similarities but I'd like to hear your thoughts?

I'll keep posting any others I find. This thread i meant to discuss these parallels and what if any effect they may have on the story.

If there is already a similar thread devoted to the topic, I'd appreciate if someone would link me as my search is not working.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Off the top of my head, they've both succumbed to temptation in situations where sexual desire clashed with perceived duty.

[Winter's Knight]

Another comparison I found interesting:

In ACoK when Jon want to help Craster's wives:

Quote

“My father once told me that some men are not worth having,” Jon finished. “A bannerman who is brutal or unjust dishonors his liege lord as well as himself.”
“Craster is his own man. He has sworn us no vows. Nor is he subject to our laws. Your heart is noble, Jon, but learn a lesson here. We cannot set the world to rights. That is not our purpose. The Night’s Watch has other wars to fight.”
Other wars. Yes. I must remember.

Dany in ASoS

Quote

“Then what do you advise, Ser Jorah?”
“You will not like it.”
“I would hear it all the same.”
“As you wish. I say, let this city be. You cannot free every slave in the world, Khaleesi. Your war is in Westeros.”
“I have not forgotten Westeros.” Dany dreamt of it some nights, this fabled land that she had never seen. “If I let Meereen’s old brick walls defeat me so easily, though, how will I ever take the great stone castles of Westeros?”
“As Aegon did,” Ser Jorah said, “with fire. By the time we reach the Seven Kingdoms, your dragons will be grown. And we will have siege towers and trebuchets as well, all the things we lack here . . . but the way across the Lands of the Long Summer is long and grueling, and there are dangers we cannot know. You stopped at Astapor to buy an army, not to start a war. Save your spears and swords for the Seven Kingdoms, my queen. Leave Meereen to the Meereenese and march west for Pentos.”
“Defeated?” said Dany, bristling.
“When cowards hide behind great walls, it is they who are defeated, Khaleesi,” Ko Jhogo said.
Her other bloodriders concurred. “Blood of my blood,” said Rakharo, “when cowards hide and burn the food and fodder, great khals must seek for braver foes. This is known.”
“It is known,” Jhiqui agreed, as she poured.
“Not to me.” Dany set great store by Ser Jorah’s counsel, but to leave Meereen untouched was more than she could stomach. She could not forget the children on their posts, the birds tearing at their entrails, their skinny arms pointing up the coast road. “Ser Jorah, you say we have no food left. If I march west, how can I feed my freedmen?”
“You can’t. I am sorry, Khaleesi. They must feed themselves or starve. Many and more will die along the march, yes. That will be hard, but there is no way to save them. We need to put this scorched earth well behind us.”
Dany had left a trail of corpses behind her when she crossed the red waste. It was a sight she never meant to see again. “No,” she said. “I will not march my people off to die.” My children. “There must be some way into this city.”

I am interested in how quickly Jon manages to adopt Mormont's pragmatism as opposed to Dany-if he had  been in command, would he have acted differently? Did his privileged upbringing have something to do with it?

[Fire Eater]

Dany has someone, Mirri Maaz Durr, burned by having her placed on a funeral pyre, to give life to her dragons.
Jon has someone, wighted Othor, burned by throwing on flaming drapes, to save the life of the Lord Commander.

Someone attempted to assassinate Dany by poisoned locusts.
Marsh and co. try to assassinate Jon by stabbing him.

Dany delivers people from Astapor and Meeren from slavery.
Jon delivers the wildlings from the Others.

Dany decides not to go to Astapor to save the remaining Astapori.
Jon decides to go to Hardhome to save the remaining wildlings.

Dany wants to allow the escaped Astapori with flux inside the walls of Meereen but her advisers oppose it, and she relents.
Jon wants to allow the remaining wildlings through the Wall, even when his advisers say no, he lets the wildlings through.

Edited by Fire Eater, 11 May 2012 - 12:11 AM.

[Maroucia]

In ACOK, they both came across empty villages at about he same time in the book; Danny when she comes out of the red waste and Jon when he first get North of the wall.

[Apple Martini]

I think if anything they're foils more than they're parallels. They both take on leadership but they differ in how they do it (Jon is elected without seeking the office after defending the "territory," while Dany sets herself up as queen after sacking the "territory"). Jon overcomes his sense of entitlement fairly early on and recognizes that there's a lot he doesn't know. Dany is still entitled and doesn't want anyone "teaching her lessons." They both have actions that are at times idealistic and pragmatic, and times when they clash with subordinates, but their motives and reactions differ (like Fire Eater's example of Dany relenting on the Astapori sick while Jon goes through with letting the wildlings through). Jon learns from Mormont that you need to pick your battles and he does seem to learn this, while Dany thinks she can save everyone, with disastrous results.

[butterbumps!]

Winterbreath- I like the idea of this thread a lot!

Winterbreath, on 24 March 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I am interested in how quickly Jon manages to adopt Mormont's pragmatism as opposed to Dany-if he had  been in command, would he have acted differently? Did his privileged upbringing have something to do with it?

I know we might disagree on this, but I think a big difference in their reactions is absence/ presence of emotion and personal investment in the crimes being witnessed.  I think Jon tends to keep an eye on the big picture (after an early scolding by Donal), and historically doesn't let his emotions get the best of him (he would have had a much tougher time in Winterfell if he had).   I think he's steeled himself against internalizing most things, and he's not really caught up with ideas of vengeance or self-righteousness (Edit: upon some lessons at the NW early on, which he was receptive to hearing).   I think for whatever reason Dany doesn't tend to see the big picture, and in the case of the crucifixions, let her anger/ outrage get the better of her.  She wants to pick every battle, and internalizing such crimes as direct insults and seeking vengeance them.

Edited by butterbumps!, 24 March 2012 - 08:26 PM.

[dreamcatcher]

Some obvious ones:


They were both responsible for their first love's death.

They are both Targaryens. (probably)

They both grew up without their parents.

They are both removed from the happenings in Westeros, although they're Westerosi.

For a while they both became part of a different culture (Dany -> Dothraki, Jon -> Wildlings).

They both have a Mormont for a mentor.

Edited by dreamcatcher, 24 March 2012 - 08:32 PM.

[Howling Mad]

Jon and Dany are both "touched" by fire albeit in different way. Thanks to Ygrette

[Winter's Knight]

butterbumps!, on 24 March 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

Winterbreath- I like the idea of this thread a lot!



I know we might disagree on this, but I think a big difference in their reactions is absence/ presence of emotion and personal investment in the crimes being witnessed.  I think Jon tends to keep an eye on the big picture (after an early scolding by Donal), and historically doesn't let his emotions get the best of him (he would have had a much tougher time in Winterfell if he had).   I think he's steeled himself against internalizing most things, and he's not really caught up with ideas of vengeance or self-righteousness (Edit: upon some lessons at the NW early on, which he was receptive to hearing).   I think for whatever reason Dany doesn't tend to see the big picture, and in the case of the crucifixions, let her anger/ outrage get the better of her.  She wants to pick every battle, and internalizing such crimes as direct insults and seeking vengeance them.

Do you, think that if Jon had actually seen Craster sacrifice a son to the Others, he would still have walked away? Because Dany, when she heard of the disastrous events in Aastapur, kept cool and stayed way.

[butterbumps!]

@ Winterbreath

I think that's a good point.  In a lot of ways it's easier to like Jon, or at least agree with him because we don't see him confronted by things like this in exactly the same way we do with Dany.  I wonder if there is an issue of proximity/ observation of the actual crime that plays a role in how the characters react.

I'd argue that if a baby was in the midst of being killed, Jon would intervene (and he does intervene on behalf of Mance/ Gilly's baby).  But I think when the crime is said and done, such as in the case of Craster, he doesn't take it on himself to exact justice or vengeance.

[Elaena Targaryen]

I always thought it was a given that they were supposed to parallel eachother, so much so I never noticed I didn't see any discussions on it and that should have been a red flag that I'm not always right. But thank you for starting the thread Winterbreath! I don't have any thing to add right now really except I thought it was most obvious in ADWD and the way they both seemed to be learning to rule. :shrug:

butterbumps!, on 24 March 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

Winterbreath- I like the idea of this thread a lot!
I know we might disagree on this, but I think a big difference in their reactions is absence/ presence of emotion and personal investment in the crimes being witnessed.  I think Jon tends to keep an eye on the big picture (after an early scolding by Donal), and historically doesn't let his emotions get the best of him (he would have had a much tougher time in Winterfell if he had).   I think he's steeled himself against internalizing most things, and he's not really caught up with ideas of vengeance or self-righteousness (Edit: upon some lessons at the NW early on, which he was receptive to hearing).   I think for whatever reason Dany doesn't tend to see the big picture, and in the case of the crucifixions, let her anger/ outrage get the better of her.  She wants to pick every battle, and internalizing such crimes as direct insults and seeking vengeance them.

Good points Butterbums! I wonder if this was upbringing; Ned vs Viserys...Jon may not have expected to rule but being a male Stark he did have a certain education. Dany probably never expected to rule and Viserys certainly would not educate her how to rule if he even knew himself. Or Jon had some good advisors, mentors, friends, whatever, who did Dany have?

Edited by Elaena Targaryen, 24 March 2012 - 08:46 PM.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Elaena Targaryen, on 24 March 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

I always thought it was a given that they were supposed to parallel eachother, so much so I never noticed I didn't see any discussions on it and that should have been a red flag that I'm not always right. But thank you for starting the thread Winterbreath! I don't have any thing to add right now really except I thought it was most obvious in ADWD and the way they both seemed to be learning to rule. :shrug:

Good points Butterbums! I wonder if this was upbringing; Ned vs Viserys...Jon may not have expected to rule but being a male Stark he did have a certain education. Dany probably never expected to rule and Viserys certainly would not educate her how to rule if he even knew himself. Or Jon had some good advisors, mentors, friends, whatever, who did Dany have?

Jorah Mormont. Jon had better combination of mentors, advisers, etc but Jorah Mormont did give Danny advice and deserves a mention.

Edited by Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren, 24 March 2012 - 08:53 PM.

[Winter's Knight]

Elaena Targaryen, on 24 March 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

I always thought it was a given that they were supposed to parallel eachother, so much so I never noticed I didn't see any discussions on it and that should have been a red flag that I'm not always right. But thank you for starting the thread Winterbreath! I don't have any thing to add right now really except I thought it was most obvious in ADWD and the way they both seemed to be learning to rule. :shrug:

Good points Butterbums! I wonder if this was upbringing; Ned vs Viserys...Jon may not have expected to rule but being a male Stark he did have a certain education. Dany probably never expected to rule and Viserys certainly would not educate her how to rule if he even knew himself. Or Jon had some good advisors, mentors, friends, whatever, who did Dany have?

Handmaidens who taught her how to make love, a half insane brother and a twice married knight nearly three times her age who has a crush on her. Now that I think about it, can Dany read and write?

Butterbumps, it should also be noted that Dany was exposed to the Meereenese cruelty over an extended duration of time while Jon was just told about Craster's deeds and then commanded not to interfere.

[Baitac]

They have both been displaced from their homes. They have both slept with others in order to inculturate themselves (by choice or not, the result has been the same). They both had Mormonts to advise them. They were both not original heirs to their families. They are both at extreme ends of the world (or close). They do not like Lannisters!

[Winter's Knight]

Baitac, on 24 March 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

They have both been displaced from their homes. They have both slept with others in order to inculturate themselves (by choice or not, the result has been the same). They both had Mormonts to advise them. They were both not original heirs to their families. They are both at extreme ends of the world (or close). They do not like Lannisters!

To be kinder than a(n adult) Lannister is to be drier than water.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

So for parallels. Both Jon and Danny try to rule in ADWD. Their rule and views are pretty unpopular from a part of the people they are ruling. And In ADWD we witness attempts against the lifes of both Jon Snow and Daenerys being made.

I would say that Jon Snow's leadership is more effective in terms of having a very important objective and actually doing what needs to be done to achieve it, making very hard but necessary decisions and not being as how to put it lacking decisiveness as Danny was though him being targeted for assassination does put some doubts on Jon's leadership. Still I think Jon removed the boy and was the man more than Danny removed the teenage girl and became the woman leader.

Edited by Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren, 24 March 2012 - 09:15 PM.

[Baitac]

Winterbreath, on 24 March 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

To be kinder than a(n adult) Lannister is to be drier than water.

True. I guess that was a gimme.

[Teal'c]

<sup>SPOILERS IF YOU HAVE NOT FINISHED ADWD

Both are following the familiar pattern of the epic hero. That is why their patterns seem similar, and also why their courses seem familiar to us, because we see the pattern in so many instances in literature, mythology, religion, and film/television.

Not every hero will have every one of these steps, and they may be in a different order:

1.The hero may be born of common or bastard birth, and may grow up away from their family of origin. Their true parentage may be royal or divine.
Examples: Jon Snow, Danaerys, Luke Skywalker, Harry Potter, Frodo Baggins, Oedipus, Hercules, Theseus, Arthur pen Dragon, Moses, Beowulf, Will Turner, Ulysses Everett McGill, Danny Archer, Jesus, and so on. *Edit: How could I have forgotten Peter Petrelli?*

2.There is frequently prophecy relating to the hero.
For Jon and Dany, these have been discussed on this forum many times. There is a prophecy that Harry Potter will destroy Voldemort. There is a prophecy that Oedipus will kill his father, so he is sent away at birth to be killed. There is a prophecy that the true King of Britain will pull the sword from the stone, and so on and so on.

3.The hero receives a call to adventure, which the hero (or by proxy his guardian) may refuse once or several times.
Jon has asked Ned to go to the Wall in the past. He only agrees to let him go when Catelyn saysJon can't stay at Winterfell. Jon rides away from the Wall but is fetched back by his friends. This is another refusal of the call. Dany continues to refuse to depart from Essos. Harry Potter's uncle tries to stop his Hogwarts letters from reaching Harry, thus refusing the call to his wizarding education.

4. Heroes frequently have magical familiars or creatures associated with them. For ASOIAF, enough said, we know them. Harry Potter has Hedwig and Dobby. Luke has R2D2 and C3PO.

5. Heroes have mentors or guides which help them on their way, frequently giving them knowledge or actual talismans to aid them in their quest.
Benjen and Tyrion accompany Jon to the Wall. Tyrion teaches Jon to wear his bastardy as his armor so people can't use it against him. This is a message to embrace his identity, an encouragement not to refuse the call to adventure. Jeor Mormont gives him Longclaw; Illyrio gives Dany dragon eggs. These are magical talismans which will aid them on their journey. Jorah and then Selmy guide and protect Dany on her journey and council about war and ruling. Tyrion is on his way to Dany to guide her about dragon lore.

An interesting note here is that Tyrion has also served as one of Jon's mentor/guides, and written his dragon knowledge on scrolls for YG/Aegon, in addition to redirecting his journey to Westeros instead of Meereen. To me, this situation, in which all three share a common mentor/guide, is one factor which tells me Aegon VI may be the real deal or be widely perceived as the real deal, and George is going for a triumvirate of epic heroes. I think these will be the three dragon riders. But that's just one of my little crackpot theories.

6. Heroes gain skills and knowledge which will aid them later in the most difficult part of their quest. Jon spends time learning about the wildlings and they give him information about the world beyond the wall. He also picks up new mentor/guides, those being Mance, Tormund, and Melisandre. Dany has learned to respect other cultures and to assimilate herself as a way of earning respect and loyalty of her subjects and lieutenants. She has learned to dispense justice and sack cities. She has learned that the only power is to be perceived as the strongest. She has learned to hatch and ride dragons. This is the farthest point Dany has reached in the epic hero's path, as far as I can see.

From this point onward, the hero is alone on his journey.

7. Once the hero has gained knowledge and skills, he is ready to move on to the most difficult and dangerous part of the quest, in which he enters the Belly of the Whale. For Jon, I believe the Shield Hall was the Belly of the Whale. Literally, it is a large dark cavernous room with rows of wooden rafters and rows of wooden benches, which seemed like enormous ribs to me. Figuratively, the speech he gives in the Shield Hall is the turning point for Marsh and his conspirators.

8. The hero suffers a death or near death or a metaphorical death. I believe this is what we saw at the end of Jon's last chapter.

9. The next step is a journey in the underworld, usually figurative, where the hero is given or finds or steals a magical object or gains magical knowledge. This is referred to as the boon.

10. Reincarnation or rebirth, also sometimes called apotheosis or becoming the god.

11. The return journey, which the hero may also refuse several times.

12. The hero returns, bearing the boon, which he uses to redeem or rescue society. At this point his previous companions and some mentors may return to stand with him against the great evil.

13. Meeting with the goddess, where the hero is made complete by joining with her. A female hero is rare, but if so she IS the goddess.

14. The hero becomes the master of two worlds. This may be the normal and the divine, or some other permutation. In ASOIAF it could be the North and the South, Westeros and Essos, whatever George makes of it.

For those of you have been poo-pooing Harry Potter, please note that Rowling managed to complete this heroic cycle through the series of seven books, and also as a complete cycle within each book. Real literature, just like the ASOIAF series.

Thanks for reading.

Reference link - Joseph Campbell did a great job putting this all together, and Wiki has a good synopsis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth</sup>

Edited by Teal'c, 24 March 2012 - 09:39 PM.

[butterbumps!]

Winterbreath, on 24 March 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

it should also be noted that Dany was exposed to the Meereenese cruelty over an extended duration of time while Jon was just told about Craster's deeds and then commanded not to interfere.

I agree with this.  Especially in light of some of the recent Dany discussions, it really does seem like she's put into far more morally compromising situations (frequently involving observable and extended corporeal harm to babies/ children).   I think it's fair to say that Dany's situation is so unlike anything we've really seen in Westeros, and that we don't see the same kind of hard choices coming up for other characters (at similar scales and complexity, I mean).