69 replies to this topic

[Black Wind]

Very intersting post about the hero's journey Tael'c, though I also suspect that GRRM will subvert at least part of it, especially with regard to Dany.

Here is another thought:
At the beginning of the series, Jon is a member of a noble Westerosi house, he loves Winterfell and he loves his family, but is he constantly reminded that nothing of this really belongs to him. Later at the Wall he learns that it's even dangerous to feel any emotional attachment to his family.
Dany on the other side doesn't have a home and has lost almost all her family, but she is constantly told that she is the last princess (and later last heir) of the best and most noble house ever and that her very own kingdom is only waiting for her on the other side of the ocean. In very simple terms, Jon thinks he has a home he does not deserve while Dany thinks she deserves a home she does not have. Or, Jon tries to forget his home while Dany tries to find her home.

Now if R+L=J, Jon will finally learn that he is officially entitled to much more than just being a valuable member of the Stark family. Dany on the other side might have to accept that Westeros never was her real home after all, or at the very least, that her parentage and all her titles do not automatically make her the best ruler of Westeros.

[Teal'c]

_{We've noticed the Wizard of Oz allusions in Dany's arc. When she is having a "no place like home" moment, it is Braavos she is thinking about.}

[Bushido]

They both have that strong need to belong,which is fated,in a sense,it keeps them moving.

[Silver Spearwife]

On a much less serious note, their love lives have a frightening number of similarities.

They enter a strange, violent, raiding community that they have to fit into. Despite their reservations, they're forced to sleep with their significant other, who are both considered significant catches. In Dany's case, it takes a while for the love to sink in. In both cases, the relationship is based almost entirely on sex. And, despite that their partners are the wild and loud ones and despite being fairly quiet in day-to-day life, Dany and Jon are the ones who open the door to experimentation. Both Ygritte and Drogo are pretty brutal, wild, live-in-the-moment sorts. Both have a hand in their lovers' deaths. They both have no desire or intention to find a new lover afterwards. Since Dany's love life is a few books ahead of Jon's, though, who knows where he'll end up.


There are so many parallels and contrasts. What's kind of interesting about the contrasts is that many of them don't start until ADwD, when their takes on leadership are very different. The plot structure is the same, but the method differs.

I'd say one other contrast would be the physical ideas of "ice" and "fire". Ice is solid and fire is volatile. Geographically, Jon stays in one location, traveling no farther north than the Skirling Pass and no farther south than Queenscrown. Dany, on the other hand, has been from Pentos to the Red Waste to Qarth. Also, in ADwD, Jon is absolutely steadfast in his methods, whereas Dany is never quite sure what she must do.

[Buckwheat]

Silver Spearwife, on 20 April 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

On a much less serious note, their love lives have a frightening number of similarities.

I am out of Likes right now, I just wanted to say I love this analysis.

[the Scorpion Knight]

I think also think that Aegon(well comparing him to robb and joffrey or jon Snow might also be athread himself) and dany are in terms of idea of leading, quite diffrent on the hand
he isn't burdend by the grudges of the great families. dany doesn't diffrentiante they are all the usurper's dogs for her

[Lyanna Stark]

the Scorpion Knight, on 20 April 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

I think also think that Aegon(well comparing him to robb and joffrey or jon Snow might also be athread himself) and dany are in terms of idea of leading, quite diffrent on the hand
he isn't burdend by the grudges of the great families. dany doesn't diffrentiante they are all the usurper's dogs for her

I don't know, she keeps saying that, but in the chapter where Barristan tells her of Lord Stark being opposed to killing her she goes off on the normal rant, then suddenly goes quiet and thinks of the child her dragon burnt. Dany hasn't quite accepted it yet, but I think she's up for the awakening that she has some seriously wrong views of the world. She also does ponder in the same chapter if she is also going mad, like her father. Clearly she has these thoughts it's just that she doesn't really have anyone to discuss them with and nothing to really anchor them to. Barristan is nice and all, but he's far too literal, and very...guarded in his speech. Jorah is too busy idolising her.

I mean, how do you bring that up "Oh by the way, I thought I might be going a bit mad, like my batshit insane dad. What do you think?"

Until someone like Tyrion shows, or maybe even Marwyn, she has nobody to really cut to the chase and tell her who it is, very unlike Jon Snow, who has had some really good, grounded mentors.

As long as Victarion stays the hell away though. God that dude freaks me out.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 20 April 2012 - 01:49 PM.

[FuzzyJAM]

In regards to the earlier discussion about Essos being less fleshed out, with less ability for readers to feel connected - that's the point.  The most obvious thing here is the naming.  Westeros names are slight variations on names familiar to anyone in the "Western" world, or at least the English-speaking portion.  Indeed, GRRM when talking about the common tongue simply called it "English" in one interview I heard.  When reading the books, we're supposed to be reading from a Westerosi perspective, with the Essos portions deliberately being "foreign" as opposed to merely "historical".  GRRM wants to create a sense of disconnect in Essos that doesn't exist for Westeros.  

In terms of Dany's villains being "comic book" - again, that's the point.  At first glance, Dany is supposed to appear to be the clearly morally superior one.  That the idea.  And yet we see her hypocrisy constantly, we see that she's actually made the lives of most people around her worse, we see that she's taking disaster with her wherever she goes.  At first you're invited to think "Oh, slavers, totes evil!", but you're then meant to think "But simply removing them from power doesn't actually work" as the story progresses.  This was very much a deliberate parallel to real world events - take out an evil dictator and you haven't won anything, "success" comes far later and at far more cost, if ever.  You don't improve the lives of oppressed people simply by removing their oppressors from power; the oppressed are no more morally upright than the oppressed.  It's about chaos, about "good vs. evil" being a false dichotomy in some situations.  It's fundamentally about the fact that, just because you're fighting someone who is evil does not mean you are doing anything good.  


Please note that I'm assuming a lot in regards to authorial intentions, something we can't truly know without being directly told by the author himself.  Maybe I'm utterly wrong in what GRRM was trying to achieve, so insert "I believe" before every statement about his intent.  

[LordofWinter]

dreamcatcher, on 24 March 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

Some obvious ones:

They both have a Mormont for a mentor.

i just thought about this. especially that they both had mormonts forced from their homes.

[Harland Flint]

There is some really great analysis of Jon & Dany's parallels as "nation builders" in the blogosphere which I highly recommend.

"There’s still something agonizing about watching Jon and Dany, who take diverging approaches to governing, meeting with bitter failures.
They’re faced with different dilemmas at the beginning of a novel. Dany’s in possession of a state that it’s impossible for her to hold... Jon responds by becoming a nation-builder, redefining “the realms of men” to include the Wildlings, integrating them into Westeros’s society with intermarriages, land, rebuilt castles, and alliances. In that decision, Jon does more to reconceptualize what Westeros should be than any of the five kings he’s stayed neutral from."
http://thinkprogress...e-with-dragons/

"

Perhaps even more problematic is the incompetence Jon displays in his redefinition of the Night's Watch. He imposes radical change on his Sworn Brothers -- many if not most of whom did not vote for him -- without ever preparing them for what he does."

http://spencerackerm...a-jon-snow.html

Edited by Harland Flint, 21 April 2012 - 08:48 AM.

[kg1982]

Quote

Until someone like Tyrion shows, or maybe even Marwyn, she has nobody to really cut to the chase and tell her who it is, very unlike Jon Snow, who has had some really good, grounded mentors.

I think that this is the main difference between the two.  I actually thought that Dany was more grounded and realistic than Jon at the beginning of GOT.  Jon's first few chapters consisted of him whining about the safe childhood that Dany dreamed of.  However, Jon had some really good mentors and friends in the Night's Watch, who provided him with good guidance and advice.  Dany did have a bit of that with Jorah Mormont, but is in desperate need of more.  Which is why I think that Dany's story will get much better once she meets up with Tyrion.  

I also think that unlike Jon's adventure with the Wildlings, Dany's adventures in Essos tend to veer toward Orientalism.  Both the Wildling and Essos cultures are different; however, Martin is able to make the Wildlings culture quite interesting while Essos is very one dimensional.

[Fire Eater]

Tyrion gave Jon good advice in his time with him such as show them that words can cut you and you'll never be free of ther mockery, and while all dwarfs may be bastards not all bastards may be dwarfs. Those words allowed Jon to get past his disposition as a bastard. Hopefully, Tyrion will give just as good advice to Dany, as well as tell her the whole truth regarding her father and the causes of Robert's Rebellion.

Harland Flint, on 21 April 2012 - 08:47 AM, said:

There is some really great analysis of Jon & Dany's parallels as "nation builders" in the blogosphere which I highly recommend.

"There’s still something agonizing about watching Jon and Dany, who take diverging approaches to governing, meeting with bitter failures.
They’re faced with different dilemmas at the beginning of a novel. Dany’s in possession of a state that it’s impossible for her to hold... Jon responds by becoming a nation-builder, redefining “the realms of men” to include the Wildlings, integrating them into Westeros’s society with intermarriages, land, rebuilt castles, and alliances. In that decision, Jon does more to reconceptualize what Westeros should be than any of the five kings he’s stayed neutral from."
http://thinkprogress...e-with-dragons/

"

Perhaps even more problematic is the incompetence Jon displays in his redefinition of the Night's Watch. He imposes radical change on his Sworn Brothers -- many if not most of whom did not vote for him -- without ever preparing them for what he does."

http://spencerackerm...a-jon-snow.html

I find Ackerman's essay to be overly critical and inaccurate in plenty of areas. The true purpose of the Night's Watch was to defend the realm against the Others, not the wildlings. Jon won the seat of Lord Commander in a landslide election, and I agree he should have taken the time to explains to his brothers his views, did his actions mean he deserved to get stabbed?

[Harland Flint]

I don't think that Jon "deserved" to get stabbed, any more than Ned deserved to be executed. They both tried to do something that was good but unpopular, and they both failed to realise that their title counts for nothing if they can't convince others to follow them.
Hopefully Dany learns this lesson from Meereen.

[Apple Martini]

Princess Anna, on 25 March 2012 - 02:01 AM, said:

Apple I have come to know that you are not a fan of Dany, but now I seem to think that you do not like her storyline rather than her .

I actually dislike both.

[Howling Mad]

Black Wind, on 25 March 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

Very intersting post about the hero's journey Tael'c, though I also suspect that GRRM will subvert at least part of it, especially with regard to Dany.

Here is another thought:
At the beginning of the series, Jon is a member of a noble Westerosi house, he loves Winterfell and he loves his family, but is he constantly reminded that nothing of this really belongs to him. Later at the Wall he learns that it's even dangerous to feel any emotional attachment to his family.
Dany on the other side doesn't have a home and has lost almost all her family, but she is constantly told that she is the last princess (and later last heir) of the best and most noble house ever and that her very own kingdom is only waiting for her on the other side of the ocean. In very simple terms, Jon thinks he has a home he does not deserve while Dany thinks she deserves a home she does not have. Or, Jon tries to forget his home while Dany tries to find her home.

Now if R+L=J, Jon will finally learn that he is officially entitled to much more than just being a valuable member of the Stark family. Dany on the other side might have to accept that Westeros never was her real home after all, or at the very least, that her parentage and all her titles do not automatically make her the best ruler of Westeros.

Well said.  How Jon and Dany react to the truth and to each other will be defining moments.

[Ramona]

Teal, on 24 March 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

<sup>SPOILERS IF YOU HAVE NOT FINISHED ADWD

Both are following the familiar pattern of the epic hero. That is why their patterns seem similar, and also why their courses seem familiar to us, because we see the pattern in so many instances in literature, mythology, religion, and film/television.

Not every hero will have every one of these steps, and they may be in a different order:

1.The hero may be born of common or bastard birth, and may grow up away from their family of origin. Their true parentage may be royal or divine.
Examples: Jon Snow, Danaerys, Luke Skywalker, Harry Potter, Frodo Baggins, Oedipus, Hercules, Theseus, Arthur pen Dragon, Moses, Beowulf, Will Turner, Ulysses Everett McGill, Danny Archer, Jesus, and so on. *Edit: How could I have forgotten Peter Petrelli?*

2.There is frequently prophecy relating to the hero.
For Jon and Dany, these have been discussed on this forum many times. There is a prophecy that Harry Potter will destroy Voldemort. There is a prophecy that Oedipus will kill his father, so he is sent away at birth to be killed. There is a prophecy that the true King of Britain will pull the sword from the stone, and so on and so on.

3.The hero receives a call to adventure, which the hero (or by proxy his guardian) may refuse once or several times.
Jon has asked Ned to go to the Wall in the past. He only agrees to let him go when Catelyn saysJon can't stay at Winterfell. Jon rides away from the Wall but is fetched back by his friends. This is another refusal of the call. Dany continues to refuse to depart from Essos. Harry Potter's uncle tries to stop his Hogwarts letters from reaching Harry, thus refusing the call to his wizarding education.

4. Heroes frequently have magical familiars or creatures associated with them. For ASOIAF, enough said, we know them. Harry Potter has Hedwig and Dobby. Luke has R2D2 and C3PO.

5. Heroes have mentors or guides which help them on their way, frequently giving them knowledge or actual talismans to aid them in their quest.
Benjen and Tyrion accompany Jon to the Wall. Tyrion teaches Jon to wear his bastardy as his armor so people can't use it against him. This is a message to embrace his identity, an encouragement not to refuse the call to adventure. Jeor Mormont gives him Longclaw; Illyrio gives Dany dragon eggs. These are magical talismans which will aid them on their journey. Jorah and then Selmy guide and protect Dany on her journey and council about war and ruling. Tyrion is on his way to Dany to guide her about dragon lore.

An interesting note here is that Tyrion has also served as one of Jon's mentor/guides, and written his dragon knowledge on scrolls for YG/Aegon, in addition to redirecting his journey to Westeros instead of Meereen. To me, this situation, in which all three share a common mentor/guide, is one factor which tells me Aegon VI may be the real deal or be widely perceived as the real deal, and George is going for a triumvirate of epic heroes. I think these will be the three dragon riders. But that's just one of my little crackpot theories.

6. Heroes gain skills and knowledge which will aid them later in the most difficult part of their quest. Jon spends time learning about the wildlings and they give him information about the world beyond the wall. He also picks up new mentor/guides, those being Mance, Tormund, and Melisandre. Dany has learned to respect other cultures and to assimilate herself as a way of earning respect and loyalty of her subjects and lieutenants. She has learned to dispense justice and sack cities. She has learned that the only power is to be perceived as the strongest. She has learned to hatch and ride dragons. This is the farthest point Dany has reached in the epic hero's path, as far as I can see.

From this point onward, the hero is alone on his journey.

7. Once the hero has gained knowledge and skills, he is ready to move on to the most difficult and dangerous part of the quest, in which he enters the Belly of the Whale. For Jon, I believe the Shield Hall was the Belly of the Whale. Literally, it is a large dark cavernous room with rows of wooden rafters and rows of wooden benches, which seemed like enormous ribs to me. Figuratively, the speech he gives in the Shield Hall is the turning point for Marsh and his conspirators.

8. The hero suffers a death or near death or a metaphorical death. I believe this is what we saw at the end of Jon's last chapter.

9. The next step is a journey in the underworld, usually figurative, where the hero is given or finds or steals a magical object or gains magical knowledge. This is referred to as the boon.

10. Reincarnation or rebirth, also sometimes called apotheosis or becoming the god.

11. The return journey, which the hero may also refuse several times.

12. The hero returns, bearing the boon, which he uses to redeem or rescue society. At this point his previous companions and some mentors may return to stand with him against the great evil.

13. Meeting with the goddess, where the hero is made complete by joining with her. A female hero is rare, but if so she IS the goddess.

14. The hero becomes the master of two worlds. This may be the normal and the divine, or some other permutation. In ASOIAF it could be the North and the South, Westeros and Essos, whatever George makes of it.

For those of you have been poo-pooing Harry Potter, please note that Rowling managed to complete this heroic cycle through the series of seven books, and also as a complete cycle within each book. Real literature, just like the ASOIAF series.

Thanks for reading.

Reference link - Joseph Campbell did a great job putting this all together, and Wiki has a good synopsis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth</sup>

Brilliant.  Some of these steps have yet to be filled in.  Also, very often these steps can be obscured, meaning, for example, the talisman or boon can be very different from what we would expect or recognize.

[SerMixalot]

dont know if it has been mentioned but both had older brothers betrayed and killed over a crown

[dreamcatcher]

Teal, on 24 March 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

<sup>SPOILERS IF YOU HAVE NOT FINISHED ADWD

Both are following the familiar pattern of the epic hero. That is why their patterns seem similar, and also why their courses seem familiar to us, because we see the pattern in so many instances in literature, mythology, religion, and film/television.

Not every hero will have every one of these steps, and they may be in a different order:

1.The hero may be born of common or bastard birth, and may grow up away from their family of origin. Their true parentage may be royal or divine.
Examples: Jon Snow, Danaerys, Luke Skywalker, Harry Potter, Frodo Baggins, Oedipus, Hercules, Theseus, Arthur pen Dragon, Moses, Beowulf, Will Turner, Ulysses Everett McGill, Danny Archer, Jesus, and so on. *Edit: How could I have forgotten Peter Petrelli?*

2.There is frequently prophecy relating to the hero.
For Jon and Dany, these have been discussed on this forum many times. There is a prophecy that Harry Potter will destroy Voldemort. There is a prophecy that Oedipus will kill his father, so he is sent away at birth to be killed. There is a prophecy that the true King of Britain will pull the sword from the stone, and so on and so on.

3.The hero receives a call to adventure, which the hero (or by proxy his guardian) may refuse once or several times.
Jon has asked Ned to go to the Wall in the past. He only agrees to let him go when Catelyn saysJon can't stay at Winterfell. Jon rides away from the Wall but is fetched back by his friends. This is another refusal of the call. Dany continues to refuse to depart from Essos. Harry Potter's uncle tries to stop his Hogwarts letters from reaching Harry, thus refusing the call to his wizarding education.

4. Heroes frequently have magical familiars or creatures associated with them. For ASOIAF, enough said, we know them. Harry Potter has Hedwig and Dobby. Luke has R2D2 and C3PO.

5. Heroes have mentors or guides which help them on their way, frequently giving them knowledge or actual talismans to aid them in their quest.
Benjen and Tyrion accompany Jon to the Wall. Tyrion teaches Jon to wear his bastardy as his armor so people can't use it against him. This is a message to embrace his identity, an encouragement not to refuse the call to adventure. Jeor Mormont gives him Longclaw; Illyrio gives Dany dragon eggs. These are magical talismans which will aid them on their journey. Jorah and then Selmy guide and protect Dany on her journey and council about war and ruling. Tyrion is on his way to Dany to guide her about dragon lore.

An interesting note here is that Tyrion has also served as one of Jon's mentor/guides, and written his dragon knowledge on scrolls for YG/Aegon, in addition to redirecting his journey to Westeros instead of Meereen. To me, this situation, in which all three share a common mentor/guide, is one factor which tells me Aegon VI may be the real deal or be widely perceived as the real deal, and George is going for a triumvirate of epic heroes. I think these will be the three dragon riders. But that's just one of my little crackpot theories.

6. Heroes gain skills and knowledge which will aid them later in the most difficult part of their quest. Jon spends time learning about the wildlings and they give him information about the world beyond the wall. He also picks up new mentor/guides, those being Mance, Tormund, and Melisandre. Dany has learned to respect other cultures and to assimilate herself as a way of earning respect and loyalty of her subjects and lieutenants. She has learned to dispense justice and sack cities. She has learned that the only power is to be perceived as the strongest. She has learned to hatch and ride dragons. This is the farthest point Dany has reached in the epic hero's path, as far as I can see.

From this point onward, the hero is alone on his journey.

7. Once the hero has gained knowledge and skills, he is ready to move on to the most difficult and dangerous part of the quest, in which he enters the Belly of the Whale. For Jon, I believe the Shield Hall was the Belly of the Whale. Literally, it is a large dark cavernous room with rows of wooden rafters and rows of wooden benches, which seemed like enormous ribs to me. Figuratively, the speech he gives in the Shield Hall is the turning point for Marsh and his conspirators.

Drogo being a vegetable. Dany is alone.

8. The hero suffers a death or near death or a metaphorical death. I believe this is what we saw at the end of Jon's last chapter.</sup>

Dany in the pyre.


^{9. The next step is a journey in the underworld, usually figurative, where the hero is given or finds or steals a magical object or gains magical knowledge. This is referred to as the boon.}

Dragons.

<sup>10. Reincarnation or rebirth, also sometimes called apotheosis or becoming the god.

Dany becoming the Mother of Dragons, the Unburnt.

11. The return journey, which the hero may also refuse several times.</sup>

She should return to Westeros, but doesn't go.

^{12. The hero returns, bearing the boon, which he uses to redeem or rescue society. At this point his previous companions and some mentors may return to stand with him against the great evil.}

From TWoW onwards.

<sup>13. Meeting with the goddess, where the hero is made complete by joining with her. A female hero is rare, but if so she IS the goddess.

14. The hero becomes the master of two worlds. This may be the normal and the divine, or some other permutation. In ASOIAF it could be the North and the South, Westeros and Essos, whatever George makes of it.

For those of you have been poo-pooing Harry Potter, please note that Rowling managed to complete this heroic cycle through the series of seven books, and also as a complete cycle within each book. Real literature, just like the ASOIAF series.

Thanks for reading.

Reference link - Joseph Campbell did a great job putting this all together, and Wiki has a good synopsis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth</sup>

My additions are in bold, I think Dany's journey is inverted.

[Sun]

kg1982, on 25 March 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

Lamb anyone??

I do think that Slavers Bay veers into Orientalism

<snip>

I concur.


Back on topic:

Ofcourse Jon's arc and Dany's arc parallel, but they also contrast. In a great post earlier, Teal'c set out the general arc of a hero's journey. I would add that both the hero and anti-hero share the same genesis from which they follow similar journeys, the main factors differentiating between them are situation, motivation and result.

Where the hero's world is familiar, the anti-hero's is foreign and troubling.
Where the hero's motives are altruistic and for the greater good, the anti-heor's motives are selfish and self-interested.
Where the hero is willing to sacrifice himself for other, the anti-hero is more willing to do harm.
Where the hero responds to his higher rational nature, the anti-hero is moved by far more instinctive, impulsive and emotionally derived instincts.
Where the hero represent the responsible conscience side of our nature, the anti-hero represents the tyrannical side.
Where the hero will evolve, the anti-hero will regress.
In rebirth the hero achieves synergy, the anti-hero alienation.
and so on.

You get the idea. In short the hero's cycle is: separation, initiation, integration and rebirth. ====> Jon.
The anti-hero's cycle is: attachment, regression, alienation and finally death. ====> I believe this to be Dany's journey.

Interestingly, Tyrion's arc has aspects of both.

Edited by Sun, 08 May 2012 - 06:54 AM.

[sillent]

I agree there are several similarities and differences too, however before everyone uses this so praise Jon Snow and bash at how Dany doesn't handle situations too well you must realize a few things:

Jon Snow was born a bastard and has been used to being entitled "nothing", he learns early at the Wall that you get what you earn. Furthermore he was given a good education along with Robb as a child and had Ned (honor).
Dany spent her childhood running, and had Viserys as a brother (compare him to Ned) who would repeatedly go on about how he (and so she) were entitled to the throne. I doubt her education matched that of Jon's and seeing as how the only reason their "begging" worked was because they were Targs being the "rightful heir" to the throne has probably been pounded into her head.