69 replies to this topic

[The Other Knight]

I don't see that as a very good defense, especially when you consider Dany picks and chooses what she retains from her brother. If it doesn't fit the image she has of herself, she easily discards it.

Also Jon is clearly more then a bit entitled when he gets to the Wall. He just is capable of learning and bettering himself unlike Dany.

Edited by The Other Knight, 19 May 2012 - 02:39 PM.

[Teal'c]

dreamcatcher, on 06 May 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

My additions are in bold, I think Dany's journey is inverted.

I think the scene in the fighting pit where she flies off alone on Drogon qualifies better as Dany's "belly of the whale." After this, her associates fear or believe she is dead, so this may be her figurative death, and her time alone on the Dothraki Sea would be her underworld adventure. This would make the boon to be learning to control Drogon. It's too early for me to be sure, so I didn't include this in my original post.

[sillent]

The Other Knight, on 19 May 2012 - 02:38 PM, said:

I don't see that as a very good defense, especially when you consider Dany picks and chooses what she retains from her brother. If it doesn't fit the image she has of herself, she easily discards it. Also Jon is clearly more then a bit entitled when he gets to the Wall. He just is capable of learning and bettering himself unlike Dany.

dont we all do that? some of the stuff you dont want will atleast subconsciously stay with you. Being raised by a paranoid, half-mad and almost abusive brother (who partially became that way from years of running after his family was butchered) is way different from being raised by arguably one of the most honorable people in the kingdom will definitely affect your personality.

On top of that, Dany has been looked at by many people (incuding her advisers) as a little child that needs to be protected and guided (albeit there's some truth in that) but when youre "Queen" of anything but the people "beneath" you in rank atleast talk down to you as if you're a kid -- all of this factors in.. Jon wasn't in this kind of a position as shown in the books.

Dont get me wrong I'm not saying I'm the biggest Dany fan or I approve of the things she's done -- I just think everyone is bashing on her a bit too much (kinda similar to Theon except she's not as bad). Put yourself in her shoes!

[Hamilton]

They both find themselves in a great position of power very quickly.  They try to change things and fail.  They shall both rise.  Dany has been quicker but Jon's will come.

[Winter Wasnt That Bad]

They have both faced almost certain death.  Dany at her pyre, and Jon at the end of DwD.
They both are family cast offs.  Jon the bastard unwanted by Cate and probably Sansa, too.  Dany sold as a wife to Drogo.
Both became leaders against their will.
Both have some badass pets in Drogon and Ghost.
Also I liked the posts that brought up the Mormont connection and the geographical Fire & Ice comparison describing their journeys.  Well done, I say...

[Prince of Braavos]

Teal, on 24 March 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

Heroes have mentors or guides which help them on their way, frequently giving them knowledge or actual talismans to aid them in their quest. ^{Benjen and Tyrion accompany Jon to the Wall. Tyrion teaches Jon to wear his bastardy as his armor so people can't use it against him. This is a message to embrace his identity, an encouragement not to refuse the call to adventure. Jeor Mormont gives him Longclaw; Illyrio gives Dany dragon eggs. These are magical talismans which will aid them on their journey. Jorah and then Selmy guide and protect Dany on her journey and council about war and ruling. Tyrion is on his way to Dany to guide her about dragon lore. An interesting note here is that Tyrion has also served as one of Jon's mentor/guides, and written his dragon knowledge on scrolls for YG/Aegon, in addition to redirecting his journey to Westeros instead of Meereen. To me, this situation, in which all three share a common mentor/guide, is one factor which tells me Aegon VI may be the real deal or be widely perceived as the real deal, and George is going for a triumvirate of epic heroes. I think these will be the three dragon riders. But that's just one of my little crackpot theories.}

I don't think that's crackpot at all and I completely agree.  I'll bet the Jon-Aegon-Dany triumvirate looked a lot more obvious when GRRM was first mapping out a three-book series.  In fact, I'll go so far as to say it was AGOT-Dany (hence why all the "firsts" in her prophecy of threes happened in it), ADWD-Aegon (would've been the civil war he's currently starting), ATFW-Jon (Starks at the end).

And Aegon doesn't have to be real to be a dragon rider; in fact, him being a Blackfyre (illegitimate branch) dragon rider would make a TON of sense given Martin's themes about honor, bastardy, etc.

Teal, on 24 March 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

^{6. Heroes gain skills and knowledge which will aid them later in the most difficult part of their quest. Jon spends time learning about the wildlings and they give him information about the world beyond the wall. He also picks up new mentor/guides, those being Mance, Tormund, and Melisandre. Dany has learned to respect other cultures and to assimilate herself as a way of earning respect and loyalty of her subjects and lieutenants. She has learned to dispense justice and sack cities. She has learned that the only power is to be perceived as the strongest. She has learned to hatch and ride dragons. This is the farthest point Dany has reached in the epic hero's path, as far as I can see. From this point onward, the hero is alone on his journey.}

7. Once the hero has gained knowledge and skills, he is ready to move on to the most difficult and dangerous part of the quest, in which he enters the Belly of the Whale. For Jon, I believe the Shield Hall was the Belly of the Whale. Literally, it is a large dark cavernous room with rows of wooden rafters and rows of wooden benches, which seemed like enormous ribs to me. Figuratively, the speech he gives in the Shield Hall is the turning point for Marsh and his conspirators.

I think that, at the end of ADWD, Dany's about to enter the Belly of the Whale and the whole twist on her story is that the Belly of the Whale is where she goes from hero to villain.  She's got her abilities (fully grown dragon); now she's re-meeting the people she started with and what she does next is entirely her responsibility.

So now it's time to rip apart the hero myth and have her just lose it and start her reign of Dothraki/Drogon terror.

Edited by Prince of Braavos, 19 May 2012 - 08:38 PM.

[Knight ofthe Laughing Tree]

ManyFacedOne, on 24 March 2012 - 10:10 PM, said:

Another one I saw pointed out in another thread is their companion's sayings:

It is known.
You know nothing.

I always saw it more as "You know nothing Jon Snow"  "If I look back I am lost"--- but this is definitely a way to see it I didn't note before

[Knight ofthe Laughing Tree]

Prince of Braavos, on 19 May 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

I think that, at the end of ADWD, Dany's about to enter the Belly of the Whale and the whole twist on her story is that the Belly of the Whale is where she goes from hero to villain.  She's got her abilities (fully grown dragon); now she's re-meeting the people she started with and what she does next is entirely her responsibility.

So now it's time to rip apart the hero myth and have her just lose it and start her reign of Dothraki/Drogon terror.

yes, yes I agree completely.  I was wondering if anyone had brought this up--- Dany  has died so-to-speak on the Dothraki Sea hasn't she?  She's being reborn in what may be her moon's blood or what-not-- she's been starving and living off nothing but charred meat courtesy of Drogon.... definitely think she and Jon are about caught up with each other.  I don't know that she will turn villain though-- as GRR Martin always says, his characters are gray.  And what I just read in an older interview-- he likes battles between two heroes like that between Achilles and Hector-- rather than Gandalf and the Witch King of Angmar.... very i nteresting don't you think?

Edited by seanettlesoup, 31 August 2012 - 05:33 AM.

[Winter's Knight]

Guys, Lummel, Butterbumps and Co. have done an excellent analysis of the parallels between the two here.

[Daenerys is my queen]

sillent, on 19 May 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

dont we all do that? some of the stuff you dont want will atleast subconsciously stay with you. Being raised by a paranoid, half-mad and almost abusive brother (who partially became that way from years of running after his family was butchered) is way different from being raised by arguably one of the most honorable people in the kingdom will definitely affect your personality.

On top of that, Dany has been looked at by many people (incuding her advisers) as a little child that needs to be protected and guided (albeit there's some truth in that) but when youre "Queen" of anything but the people "beneath" you in rank atleast talk down to you as if you're a kid -- all of this factors in.. Jon wasn't in this kind of a position as shown in the books.

Dont get me wrong I'm not saying I'm the biggest Dany fan or I approve of the things she's done -- I just think everyone is bashing on her a bit too much (kinda similar to Theon except she's not as bad). Put yourself in her shoes!

ALMOST abusive?
Anyway, other than that part, I agree.
I think that when you're trying to become a ruler and everyone's treating you like you're a little kid it must be annoying. Dany still has a lot to learn-including controlling that Targaryen temper of hers. Oh and her dragons. She needs to learn to control them to. And I'm sure she will.

Hamilton, on 19 May 2012 - 07:06 PM, said:

They both find themselves in a great position of power very quickly.  They try to change things and fail.  They shall both rise.  Dany has been quicker but Jon's will come.

Good ones!

More parallels: They're both leaders. They both make unpopular decisions. And I personally think that they will both play a part in the war against the Others.