101 replies to this topic

[dtones520]

Sorry if this was already posted on here or somewhere, but after two recent read throughs I still can't figure out why Jaqen H'gar is in Kings Landing, if he truly is a Faceless Man. We're the black cells part of some ploy for him to get sent up to the Wall? Any theories or thoughts?

Edited by dtones520, 27 March 2012 - 07:59 PM.

[Dracarya]

I'm pretty sure we're not told, but I like the idea of him being sent to Arya. Many people, it would seem, can see into the future and know things that others do not know, so it's not ridiculously far out to suggest that the FM have some kind of ability in that area. I think the FM foresaw Arya's coming to the House of Black and White, and so sent Jaqen to help her and to give her the coin. To get into the black cells, I can only assume that he did something to warrant being put in them with the knowledge that Ned would allow Yoren the pick of them for the Wall, and that on that journey he would meet Arya, or that he learned of these things after he arrived in KL and slipped in, using a different face or whatever.

That said, he's probably a runaway FM who got caught doing something and got chucked in the black cells, and his meeting with Arya was pure chance. But I'm not convinced it was that simple. We haven't seen the last of Jaqen, I am thinking.

[dtones520]

I'm pretty sure we see him again at the beginning of AFFC

[Teal'c]

Varys is the one with access to the black cells, so I am betting he is behind it. I was wondering if Jaqen was hired to kill Ned on the way to the Wall.

[corbon]

dtones520, on 27 March 2012 - 07:58 PM, said:

Sorry if this was already posted on here or somewhere, but after two recent read throughs I still can't figure out why Jaqen H'gar is in Kings Landing, if he truly is a Faceless Man. We're the black cells part of some ploy for him to get sent up to the Wall? Any theories or thoughts?

We are not told.

A reasonable guess is that he was on his way to Oldtown, since that is where he goes once he has finished with Arya and paid off his debt. And KL would be a reasonable place along the way from Bravos to Oldtown. Why he is in the black cells is unknown entirely.

IMO people put too much into the 'mysterious powers' of the FM.
I think the face-changing is a unique ability but apart from that they really are just very well trained human operatives. Jaqen Hagar would have burnt to death if Arya had not gotten him the axe. He did not escape the cage before that, and his destination after he paid off his debt was in the opposite direction to the wall, so he was clearly unable to escape the cage, and probably unable to escape the Black Cells either.

I think it is baseless and wild speculation that he was 'sent' to Arya due to someone seeing into the future.

Occams razor. There is a simple, reasonable and credible explanation which fits all the known facts. It is the most likely to be right.

Edited by corbon, 27 March 2012 - 08:48 PM.

[eyeheartsansa]

Yeah, it does seem like he was just on his way to Oldtown, and just took a huge detour by way of the black cells, Yoren and Arya.

His mission in Oldtown is the important thing.  I like to think of him as some kind of FM prodigy, one of the best and brightest, being sent on some uber awesome, secret spy mission.

[Patchface12]

Because Varys told Cersei Syrio was worth a good ransom in Bravvos, so Ser Meryn had to spare Syrio and take him to the black cells, where he changed faces into Jaqen. The only ones who saw him do this was Rorge and Biter, hence their fear of him.

Edited by Patchface12, 27 March 2012 - 09:39 PM.

[Elaena Targaryen]

It seems Jaqen is in Oldtown and we can assume it's to find something like a book on dragons, probably a how to kill. This sounds reasonable so I would think Jaqen would have been in KL for a similar purpose if indeed the Oldtown speculation is correct. It would be reasonable to assume somewhere in the Red Keep there could be old dragon books. (or maybe even an egg and the same goes for the Citadel but a dragon egg is more far fetched) Now if Jaqen was snooping around, looking where the old Targaryen items are, (remember that one room with Targ armor, who was in there?) then Varys little birds would know. This is the only problem I see is how did Jaqen get caught, what was bad enough to warrent the black cells, and if it was Varys who put him there for lurking around in tunnels and such would Varys have let Jaqen be taken by Yoren? Anyway it's the most reasonable idea that I have been able to work out. :shrug:

[Wilbur]

Perhaps the other way to infer his presence in KL is to account for all the important deaths in the KL city / castle complex during AGOT.

If you can pinpoint an unexplained death in KL, then you may have your reasons.

It does NOT seem to be Jon Arryn, as he was poisoned by his wife at LF's direction.

So who else wins a wooden overcoat prior to Ned's beheading?

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

To meet Arya, duh.

[Winter's Knight]

Wilbur, on 28 March 2012 - 12:21 AM, said:

Perhaps the other way to infer his presence in KL is to account for all the important deaths in the KL city / castle complex during AGOT.

If you can pinpoint an unexplained death in KL, then you may have your reasons.

It does NOT seem to be Jon Arryn, as he was poisoned by his wife at LF's direction.

So who else wins a wooden overcoat prior to Ned's beheading?

Jon Arryn's squire-who arranged his death?

[namtose]

Winterbreath, on 28 March 2012 - 12:54 AM, said:

Jon Arryn's squire-who arranged his death?

Jon Arryn's squire is killed in a joust with the mountain, Gregor Clegane.

Another candidate?

[Roose Seal]

My theory, for which I have absolutely no evidence, is that Cersei originally hired Jaqen to kill Ned and be above any kind of suspicion.
Cersei never wanted to have Ned publicly executed, she knew he was too valuable a hostage and killing him would only make their situation worse. However, she could definitely not let him walk free, with his being savvy about the incest.
So she arranged for Yoren to take Ned up along with men from the black cells, amongst whom a Faceless Man--Jaqen--had been planted, by her, with Varys' help maybe.
It would've been very easy for Jaqen to kill Ned on the way up to the Wall and make it look like an accident.
Ned is out of the picture, the murder can't be pinned on anyone, no one ever finds out about the twincest and the Lannisters become a long lasting dynasty.

But of course, that little shit Joffrey had to go ahead and ruin everything

[wyman's cook]

The Lost Direwolf, on 28 March 2012 - 02:16 AM, said:

My theory, for which I have absolutely no evidence, is that Cersei originally hired Jaqen to kill Ned and be above any kind of suspicion.
Cersei never wanted to have Ned publicly executed, she knew he was too valuable a hostage and killing him would only make their situation worse. However, she could definitely not let him walk free, with his being savvy about the incest.
So she arranged for Yoren to take Ned up along with men from the black cells, amongst whom a Faceless Man--Jaqen--had been planted, by her, with Varys' help maybe.
It would've been very easy for Jaqen to kill Ned on the way up to the Wall and make it look like an accident.
Ned is out of the picture, the murder can't be pinned on anyone, no one ever finds out about the twincest and the Lannisters become a long lasting dynasty.

But of course, that little shit Joffrey had to go ahead and ruin everything

this sounds really nice and plausible, but unfortunately from how the FM were presented afterwards, it doesn't seem the case..
or maybe i got it wrong..why would Jaquen have multiple missions ? and why when he actually was free did he stick with the other scum from the black cells and didn't just head right to his new or actual mission? it doesn't make sense

[Leto]

corbon, on 27 March 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

I think it is baseless and wild speculation that he was 'sent' to Arya due to someone seeing into the future.

Occams razor. There is a simple, reasonable and credible explanation which fits all the known facts. It is the most likely to be right.

It's been a while since I read CoK but my recollection is that he knows who Arya is. What reason is there for some random braavosi assassin to know the name/face of the youngest daughter of some northen westeros lord who isn't even recognized by members of the noble houses south of the neck? To me it was implied that there is some connection. I took him for syrio because of this when I first read it, which probably isn't the case. So the idea that he was sent for her doesn't seem that far fetched, to me at least.

[mormont]

Teal, on 27 March 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

Varys is the one with access to the black cells, so I am betting he is behind it. I was wondering if Jaqen was hired to kill Ned on the way to the Wall.

Varys is one who has access, not the one. Plenty of others have access in various ways: Payne, Longwaters, and presumably also the King, the Queen, the Hand, the commander of the gold cloaks, the LC of the KG, other members of the Small Council, and other senior officials involved in criminal matters. Lots of people could have sent Jaqen to the Black Cells. I'd be more inclined to suspect Varys if it wasn't for the fact that Longwaters apparently knew about Jaqen, which suggests he was arrested and processed officially.

Fire&Blood, on 27 March 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure we're not told, but I like the idea of him being sent to Arya. Many people, it would seem, can see into the future and know things that others do not know, so it's not ridiculously far out to suggest that the FM have some kind of ability in that area.

It's a supposition that isn't supported by anything we've read, and so is inherently very shaky. We've never seen a FM predict the future, and let's face it - it would be the kind of tool that would be invaluable to their work. If they could do it, I think we ought to have had an indication by now.

Patchface12, on 27 March 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

Because Varys told Cersei Syrio was worth a good ransom in Bravvos, so Ser Meryn had to spare Syrio and take him to the black cells, where he changed faces into Jaqen. The only ones who saw him do this was Rorge and Biter, hence their fear of him.

Again, total speculation. None of this is even hinted at anywhere. It makes very little sense on the face of it: why would Syrio be worth a ransom? He is a former employee of the Sealord, not a family member. Why would Cersei care, anyway? Coin is the one thing she's not short of. Why would he then change faces? The disappearance of one prisoner and the sudden appearance of another would raise suspicion, to say the least. Why does nobody ever wonder what became of Syrio? If he was so important that they kept him alone alive of all the Stark retainers, it's odd that he's subsequently completely forgotten about.

It also runs into the problem that Jaqen was almost certainly taken from the Black Cells before we last see Syrio. Ned is deposed and taken to the Black Cells at almost exactly the same time Syrio fights Trant. It makes no sense that Yoren would be allowed to take his pick of the Black Cells, on Ned's authority, at a time when Ned himself was in one of them.

So, no. That's not going to work.

Edited by mormont, 28 March 2012 - 03:28 AM.

[corbon]

Leto, on 28 March 2012 - 02:37 AM, said:

It's been a while since I read CoK but my recollection is that he knows who Arya is. What reason is there for some random braavosi assassin to know the name/face of the youngest daughter of some northen westeros lord who isn't even recognized by members of the noble houses south of the neck? To me it was implied that there is some connection. I took him for syrio because of this when I first read it, which probably isn't the case. So the idea that he was sent for her doesn't seem that far fetched, to me at least.

He figures it out. You'd have to be a bit dim not to really. Arya's giving a million clues away left right and centre and we know FM are trained to be observent and differentiate lies from truth.
And any senior rogue is going to at least know a little about the senior ruling families, especially the chief justice's family.

[Teal'c]

wyman, on 28 March 2012 - 02:36 AM, said:

this sounds really nice and plausible, but unfortunately from how the FM were presented afterwards, it doesn't seem the case..
or maybe i got it wrong..why would Jaquen have multiple missions ? and why when he actually was free did he stick with the other scum from the black cells and didn't just head right to his new or actual mission? it doesn't make sense

Yoren had him locked in a wagon until Arya freed them during the fire. After that he had to stay with Arya until he paid her the 3 lives he owed to her.

[Ice Turtle]

Maye he was sent to assassinate Ned or someone else on the Wall and it was better if he got there as a prisoner than volunteer. If it was Ned Joffrey done the work for him.

[Bastard of the White Knife]

mormont, on 28 March 2012 - 03:27 AM, said:

It also runs into the problem that Jaqen was almost certainly taken from the Black Cells before we last see Syrio. Ned is deposed and taken to the Black Cells at almost exactly the same time Syrio fights Trant. It makes no sense that Yoren would be allowed to take his pick of the Black Cells, on Ned's authority, at a time when Ned himself was in one of them.

So, no. That's not going to work.

I'm not sure I follow your timeline here.  Syrio was killed/abducted/imprisoned/whatevered the day that the Lannisters moved on the Starks at KL - which was when Ned was imprisoned.  Ned sat in the dungeons for a while (I'm guessing a matter of at least a few weeks) before he was executed.  Yoren left for the Wall on the day of Ned's execution, or very shortly thereafter.  I highly doubt, therefore, that "Jaqen" was taken out of the black cells BEFORE Syrio is last seen.  Because that would mean he spent weeks sitting in a "wagon cage" waiting to be taken to the Wall.  I would suggest that it would make more sense that the prisoners are brought ot on the day that they are to be transported, not days or weeks in advance.

I'm not so sure that "Jaqen" is Syrio.  In fact, I doubt this pretty highly - I think Syrio is dead.  But I view the FM as sort of the CIA or Mi6 of Bravos - they act as spies and assasins for the Sea Lord.  Varys has his little birds; Littlefinger has his spies, the Sea Lord has his FM, etc., etc.  I find it plausible that a FM could get into the black cells, adopt the identity of a prisoner and join a train of people headed north to the wall.  The greater question is why he would have an interest in Arya?  If Jaqen IS Syrio, this makes some sense.  However, in light of the fact that Jaqen's mission was to head to Oldtown, I just don't buy that Jaqen is Syrio.