Fragile Bird, on 28 March 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:
A bastard is a person born outside of marriage. Some definitions say , a child born to a man and a woman who are not married to each other, but that definition is incomplete. If the woman is married, the child can't be a bastard, the child is born in a marriage. Period. I'm not trying to be rude or silly, but for the most part we all take for granted that our mom and dads are our mom and dads, don't we? How would we know otherwise, unless mom told us?
ETA: the problem with Ned changing Robert's will to "true born heir" is, prove it.
The definition of a bastard is someone whose parents are not married to each other.
Question: By your own definition, why is it relevant if the mother or father is the married one? No one has ever disputed that Jon (assuming Ned is his father) or Gendry are bastards, and both of their fathers were married at the time. So Cersei is married. Jaime isn't. Why on earth does it matter that it's the mother who's the married one? It may make a difference in determining who the child belongs to, but it doesn't matter in inheritance laws, which is all that people in Westeros care about. In fact, they're a little obsessed with it going through the male line. Why would they throw it away by allowing the mother to sleep around as she pleases?
Robert has nothing to do with it. He's not Joffrey's father, end of story. I have no idea what your last line means, because no matter what, Joffrey has no claim through anything regarding Robert. Because he's not related to the guy. Blood is what matters in inheritance laws.
Sure, they can be overridden, but that is done on a case-by-case basis, not as a rule.
People in ASoIaF have a preoccupation with their wives being maidens. One theory I heard was because men want to have added certainty that their child is their own.
Bastards in ASoIaF have no claims (unless legitimized). You are saying that if the woman is married, the child isn't a bastard. If he's not a bastard, does that make him a real Baratheon? Well, that can't be right, because he's not a Baratheon at all. So is he a real Lannister? Does he have claim to Casterly Rock? Why? Nothing in the story indicates that that would even be sort of true.
The wiki's down right now so I can't check, but another (weaker) wiki says that Edric Storm's mother is married. I assume she was married when Edric was conceived. Edric's a bastard, no one hides it, no one pulls any punches with it. He's a bastard. He has no claims. That is it. The same applies to Ramsay, though it was a lowborn marriage (was she technically widowed before or after he was conceived? I can't recall. It's pushing it close).
Your definition of a bastard is yours alone, to my knowledge. No one I have ever encountered - not anyone else on the site, not anyone in ASoIaF, and I can safely assume Martin himself - agrees with your definition.
Edited by Silver Spearwife, 28 March 2012 - 03:36 PM.