Fragile Bird, on 28 March 2012 - 09:22 PM, said:
Once again. Cersei is married. The children are not born out of wedlock.
Cersei is not married to father of her children. That makes her children factually batards, even if they are not legally recognized as such.
Lizaveta Martell, on 28 March 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:
Being a murderer is a result of an action, being a bastard is merely a status. Is a child who was conceived before marriage but born after the wedding a bastard? NO, because it is merely a matter of status. Was the mother married to someone? Ok, then child legitimate.
The child would not
be considered legitimate if it were revealed who his true father is. That is the point of the murderer example: the law may not recognize him as a bastard, but that is because the law is not in possession of all the facts, just as the law may not recognize a murderer as such even if he is factually a murderer. And whatever status Joffrey may hold, nothing changes the fact that he is factually
Imagine that a woman gets pregnant, the bio father leaves and some friendly 2nd man agrees to marry her. Is the child a bastard? no, of course not, it is the acknowledged child born during a marriage. Same reason that bastards can be legitimized, because it is all a matter of legal status, not some essential quality.
This does not appear to be true in Westeros. Bronn married Lolys Stokeworth, yet her child is still considered a bastard.
Anyway, this example doesn't really matter that much, because Cersei's children are presumed legitimate not because Robert and Cersei are married, but because people think they're Robert's children born within the marriage. Take away the idea that they're Robert's children, and you take away the idea that they're legitimate.
You can scream all you like about products of incest and the like,
Eh, what? I've never done any "screaming" here, nor have I ever brought up the incest angle.
but without strong evidence to overturn the presumption of legitimacy, a child born after a marriage has legitimate legal status.
*Sigh* I'm not disputing that Joffrey has
legitimate legal status. I am simply stating that he is factually a bastard. If all of Westeros knew what we the readers knew, then they would agree that Joffrey is a bastard. Do you disagree with this notion? I've asked this question several times, yet no one has bothered to answer it.