80 replies to this topic

[Gurkhal]

There's been several threads about what to do with the Freys and considering the respons a fair few of the posters on this forum seems to want some form of bloodbath to equalize the Red Wedding. But I kind of wondered, what should be done with House Frey's sworn lesser Houses? They obviously partook in the Red Wedding but, probably, only because their lord commanded them to.

What do you think should be done with them, if anything?

My view is that while the Red Wedding was an obvious overreaction by the Freys, who also played straight into Roose Bolton's hands while they were at it, the Houses sworn to the Twins - like for example House Haigh, should be acquitted from the Red Wedding due to them only following their oaths to their overlord. But maybe that's just me.

[BondJamesBond]

They need to be given legitimate trials (ie, not trial by combat).  I doubt a fair jury could be found, but perhaps the masters can assist in forming a justice system.

[Grip]

They are certainly in a tough position, if they had refused to go along with the RW I am sure the Freys would have punished them severely. In obeying the Freys they only did what they had sworn to do, but I doubt that will matter much to those of the north who got their husbands/sons etc killed at the Twins..One thing to take into consideration is that the Frey bannermen most likely wasnt told what exactly was going to happen, as Lord Walder probaly only shared his plans with a select few.

[Fire Eater]

The members of the lesser houses shouldn't lose their lives but should be punished somehow, like heavy fines. Ser Leslyn Haigh lost half an ear when the Greatjon bit it off, that's enough physical punishment for him.

Edited by Fire Eater, 29 March 2012 - 12:46 AM.

[kneo]

BondJamesBond, on 29 March 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

They need to be given legitimate trials (ie, not trial by combat).  I doubt a fair jury could be found, but perhaps the masters can assist in forming a justice system.

They will all receive a fair trial from lady Stoneheart.

[CC-Kingmaker]

kneo, on 29 March 2012 - 06:16 AM, said:

They will all receive a fair trial from lady Stoneheart.

That they will indeed

[Patchface12]

The only houses I can think of being sworn to the Twins are the Vyprens (Lord Lucias, Ser Damon), the Haighs (Ser Leslyn {short an ear thanks to the GreatJon}, Ser Harys, Ser Donnel, , the Charltrons, and the Erenfords (Lord Walder's 8th and current wife).

I hope they get theirs.

Also, I hope loyalists like Perwyn and Olyvar who took no part in the RW are away from the Twins when justice is meted out on the Freys by whatever means GRRM has up his sleeves.

When Gyles Rosby died, there were 6 claims put out for the Rosby lands. Since Perwyn is a Rosby on his mother's side, hopefully he gets it and Olyvar, also a Rosby, goes with him as a household knight and to get away from his nasty, dysfunctional family.

[The Last Direwolf]

Going along with the Red Wedding was supporting a rebellion against their liege lord's liege lord. They are no less guilty. They should be given fair trials, yes, but let off without punishment is not an option.

Edited by The Last Direwolf, 29 March 2012 - 10:37 AM.

[WolveseatDragons]

I think in the end the downfall of the Freys will be that they are divided amongst themselves and have few real allies.  If Old Walder dies either naturally or otherwise they will war with each other and be killed off by their many enemies.  All of the heirs closest to inheriting are spoiled, evil men and their siblings hate them.  Most of their alliances that matter are with the Boltons and the Lannisters both of which are Houses doomed to fail as they are rife with enemies and sapped of strength.  The Frey's only started with about 4k troops and that was before the wars with Robb, the RW, and the battles in the North.  The Bolton's had fewer.  All of their power is reliant on controlling others through hostages and threats and not loyalty.  The Lannisters have suffered multiple defeats and have what is left of their forces strung out all over Westeros and their leadership is a mess.

I think between BwB, Dorne, loyalists to the Stark's and Tully's, and Stannis and their own families they are doomed.

[Gurkhal]

BondJamesBond, on 29 March 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

They need to be given legitimate trials (ie, not trial by combat).  I doubt a fair jury could be found, but perhaps the masters can assist in forming a justice system.

Yes, some maesters could potentially work to see some form of strictly legal expertise to prevent a trial by overtly emotional factors going into it.

Grip, on 29 March 2012 - 12:35 AM, said:

They are certainly in a tough position, if they had refused to go along with the RW I am sure the Freys would have punished them severely. In obeying the Freys they only did what they had sworn to do, but I doubt that will matter much to those of the north who got their husbands/sons etc killed at the Twins..One thing to take into consideration is that the Frey bannermen most likely wasnt told what exactly was going to happen, as Lord Walder probaly only shared his plans with a select few.

I agree more or less with you. No matter what they did they would be traitors and they did follow the oaths their Houses had held for the longest time.

Fire Eater, on 29 March 2012 - 12:44 AM, said:

The members of the lesser houses shouldn't lose their lives but should be punished somehow, like heavy fines. Ser Leslyn Haigh lost half an ear when the Greatjon bit it off, that's enough physical punishment for him.

I can see your point without doubt and some form of punishment could make the hurt a bit softer for the Northmen and help cool things down.

kneo, on 29 March 2012 - 06:16 AM, said:

They will all receive a fair trial from lady Stoneheart.

They will burn lady Stoneheart and scatter her ashes to the winds

CC-Kingmaker, on 29 March 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

That they will indeed

See above.

Patchface12, on 29 March 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

The only houses I can think of being sworn to the Twins are the Vyprens (Lord Lucias, Ser Damon), the Haighs (Ser Leslyn {short an ear thanks to the GreatJon}, Ser Harys, Ser Donnel, , the Charltrons, and the Erenfords (Lord Walder's 8th and current wife).

I hope they get theirs.

Also, I hope loyalists like Perwyn and Olyvar who took no part in the RW are away from the Twins when justice is meted out on the Freys by whatever means GRRM has up his sleeves.

When Gyles Rosby died, there were 6 claims put out for the Rosby lands. Since Perwyn is a Rosby on his mother's side, hopefully he gets it and Olyvar, also a Rosby, goes with him as a household knight and to get away from his nasty, dysfunctional family.

Get what? Get killed for their lords breaking their guest rights? The only ones who've broken the guest rights are the Freys while the Boltons and the Frey bannermen have at worst only committed the tried and true Westerosi tradition of backstabbing.

The Last Direwolf, on 29 March 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

Going along with the Red Wedding was supporting a rebellion against their liege lord's liege lord. They are no less guilty. They should be given fair trials, yes, but let off without punishment is not an option.

As above I can see your point although I personally don't think they should be punished as they only followed their lord. Still some punishment could have symbolic value.

WolveseatDragons, on 29 March 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

I think in the end the downfall of the Freys will be that they are divided amongst themselves and have few real allies.  If Old Walder dies either naturally or otherwise they will war with each other and be killed off by their many enemies.  All of the heirs closest to inheriting are spoiled, evil men and their siblings hate them.  Most of their alliances that matter are with the Boltons and the Lannisters both of which are Houses doomed to fail as they are rife with enemies and sapped of strength.  The Frey's only started with about 4k troops and that was before the wars with Robb, the RW, and the battles in the North.  The Bolton's had fewer.  All of their power is reliant on controlling others through hostages and threats and not loyalty.  The Lannisters have suffered multiple defeats and have what is left of their forces strung out all over Westeros and their leadership is a mess.

I think between BwB, Dorne, loyalists to the Stark's and Tully's, and Stannis and their own families they are doomed.

You are aware that this is all OT, right?

[Lady Hodor]

The Freys are supposed to be bannermen to the Tullys.
Their leige lord is Hoster Tully, and I doubt he would order them to kill his grandson and daughter.

[jarl the climber]

BondJamesBond, on 29 March 2012 - 12:06 AM, said:

They need to be given legitimate trials (ie, not trial by combat).  I doubt a fair jury could be found, but perhaps the masters can assist in forming a justice system.

I would imagine that when it came down to it they would get a trial or trial by combat or they could take the black. I doubt the situation with the Freys will be handled as cleanly as some people think. A lot of what ends up happening at the Twins will depend upon hopw long Walder Frey lives, who sucseeds him and how the possible claimants outside of the family choose to act.

There are some Frey descendants in the Vale and Gemmas husband is Walders second son. If Tyrion returns to Westeros and has  someone powerful backing his claim to Casterly Rock, Gemma could go with Tyrion over Cersei, her price would probaly be the Twins for Emmon and her sons, who had nothing to do with the Red Wedding. The ones in the Vale are ahead of Emmon and could end up being enlisted by Littlefinger.

[jarl the climber]

Lady Hodor, on 31 March 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

The Freys are supposed to be bannermen to the Tullys.
Their leige lord is Hoster Tully, and I doubt he would order them to kill his grandson and daughter.

But the Freys still have a major lordship with many petty lords and landed knights sworn to them.

[Monk Meth-]

fines.. maaybe lose some land if they even have enough to spare. No one really punishes lesser folk and lords for the deed and commands of there liege lords unless its in open battle.

[The Last Direwolf]

Gurkhal, on 31 March 2012 - 08:46 AM, said:

As above I can see your point although I personally don't think they should be punished as they only followed their lord. Still some punishment could have symbolic value.

They owe loyalty to their king above their liege lord, and to their great house over their liege lord. Robb Stark was their king, and Edmure Tully was the lord of their great house. They are guilty of treason, and "symbolic punishment" is not enough.

[Gurkhal]

Lady Hodor, on 31 March 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

The Freys are supposed to be bannermen to the Tullys.
Their leige lord is Hoster Tully, and I doubt he would order them to kill his grandson and daughter.

I agree entirely but the thread is not about House Tully's bannermen but about House Frey's bannermen.

jarl the climber, on 31 March 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

I would imagine that when it came down to it they would get a trial or trial by combat or they could take the black. I doubt the situation with the Freys will be handled as cleanly as some people think. A lot of what ends up happening at the Twins will depend upon hopw long Walder Frey lives, who sucseeds him and how the possible claimants outside of the family choose to act.

There are some Frey descendants in the Vale and Gemmas husband is Walders second son. If Tyrion returns to Westeros and has  someone powerful backing his claim to Casterly Rock, Gemma could go with Tyrion over Cersei, her price would probaly be the Twins for Emmon and her sons, who had nothing to do with the Red Wedding. The ones in the Vale are ahead of Emmon and could end up being enlisted by Littlefinger.

Very true, the drama within House Frey will be very exciting to see in how it unfolds.

Monk Meth-, on 31 March 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

fines.. maaybe lose some land if they even have enough to spare. No one really punishes lesser folk and lords for the deed and commands of there liege lords unless its in open battle.

Seems about right to me.

The Last Direwolf, on 31 March 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

They owe loyalty to their king above their liege lord, and to their great house over their liege lord. Robb Stark was their king, and Edmure Tully was the lord of their great house. They are guilty of treason, and "symbolic punishment" is not enough.

I think exactly opposite to you. They primarily owned their alliegence to the House directly above them, which in this case would be House Frey, and only by extension do they have a link to House Tully, and later on Stark. A symbolic punishment should be well enough I would think.

Edited by Gurkhal, 03 April 2012 - 06:19 AM.

[Frey Pie]

Comes down to what oath means the most.Same as Jaimes dilemmas.Your liege house his liege house or your king?
How would you put it in modern terms?Aided murder?Fairly severe punishment is in order.Perhaps not death.They stayed true to Frey but betrayed their overlords Tully and Frey.Seems punishable to me

[The Last Direwolf]

Gurkhal, on 03 April 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:

I think exactly opposite to you. They primarily owned their alliegence to the House directly above them, which in this case would be House Frey, and only by extension do they have a link to House Tully, and later on Stark. A symbolic punishment should be well enough I would think.

I think that is a matter of interpretation. For example, in Robert's Rebellion, many houses in the Vale moved against Jon Arryn to block off Gull Town so that Robert and Ned could not return to their homes and call their own banners. Also, Houses Darry and Mootton betrayed Hoster Tully at the Battle of the Trident by fighting for the royalists.

And a symbolic punishment... such as? Having their incomes taken away? Their lands? Titles?

[Ned Stark's Ghost]

Hypothetically, if the Freys are to be destroyed then it is a race against time ... if the North (Starks or Stark loyalists) destroy them ... RW II?? ... then i predict they could confiscate the Frey lands INCLUDING THE TWINS!! Possession of the Twins coupled with a reinforced Moat Cailin would make the North damned near impregnable (of course the Boltons must be sorted first ... come any Stark heir returning they will be mobbed and die )

However, if a southern army (i.e. lannisters) take the twins, then it will make it very difficult for either side to do anything else ... the ground between the Twins and the Moat will be dead land, filled with pointless skirmishes between two  strategic strongholds ...

What do ye think?
Note: I'm not saying its the right thing to do in confiscating the Twins, but tbh i think if most of us were in a position to get revenge on the Freys for the RW then once we started it would be very difficult to stop until they were destroyed or rescued

[the Scorpion Knight]

Why do I think big walder will help in the destruction of house frey