399 replies to this topic

[Carey Snow]

Ser Hippie, on 29 March 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

What better advice should she have given? She told him not to release Theon (he did), she advised him to make peace (he refused), and she also represented him ably with Renly and Stannis. She even (unknowingly) argued his case when she tried to convince Edmure to stay in Riverrun rather than challenge the advancing Lannister forces.

As for releasing Jaime - it was the wrong thing to do (if done for understandable reasons), but the Red Wedding had been planned since before then.

She could have urged him to keep more troops at home in the north to protect the home turf.

[Howling Mad]

I have nothing against either character both have flaws and both have attributes.  The decision to have Dany stay and play in Meereen killed her story arc and bored me too death.  Not to mention that she locked up two of her dragons and would have locked up the third if she could have.  Really, I thought these were your kids? Why don't you do the hardwork of rasing them instead waiting for a miricle to save you.

Ok I feel better now

[KingK]

I really liked Catelyn. She was never my favorite character, but I always had a pretty positive opinion of her. Dany I was always a little apathetic/annoyed with (with the exception of a couple chapters in Storm of Swords), but her chapters and actions in ADWD turned my annoyance into outright loathing. I mean, I still like her as a person more than Cersei or the Boltons or Freys or something (she's still morally "good" for the most part) but I just find her so insufferable.

On the other hand, Arya is my favorite character in the series, so it's not any sort of misogyny or anything.

[moonsblood]

I don't hate Dany, but she is definitely far from one of my favorites.  Aside from chaining up her so called children, its really her arrogance that rubs me the wrong way.  How typical, this white lady is gonna come into this place full of people with weird names, free their slaves and voila she fixed everything YAY!  Too bad she actually made everything worse for the slaves.

[corbon]

Carey Snow, on 29 March 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

She could have urged him to keep more troops at home in the north to protect the home turf.

There were. They went off to defend a raid.

But it is a bit rich to expect Catelyn to be giving Robb military advice, as opposed to political advice. But haters gonna hate, and find irrational reasons to justify it no matter what.

[Castel]

Carey Snow, on 29 March 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

Sounds like a mistake a 15 year old would make.

No it's a mistake an idiot would make. When you're warned about something by people who know better than you you listen, even if you're 15. To not do so is idiocy If you want to rule then you have to listen to what your advisors tell you. And to fucking trust that witch requires a level of naivete and lack of empathy that it just stunning. And on top of that, does she ever actually take responsibility for this? Nope. It's just taken as a foregone conclusion that that shit needs to be done so she could go and also rape Westeros. I don't like her because she's a spoiled brat with a messiah complex that kills people around her. Is it understandable? Perhaps. Should I like it or wave it off because she's young? Fuck no, not when so many people have died because she refused to listen, something that she has no reason not to do.

[Lord Godric]

I never understood the Catelyn hate and assumed it all comes from her one mean scene with Jon.  As for Dany, I don't hate her personally, but her story bores me to tears.  Especially the further we progress and the more she regresses.  With that said, I did get very angry with Dany and her decisions in ADWD because I thought she was doing nothing but continually regressing.

As for why people generally don't like these characters, I think for Dany a lot of it has to do with not liking her story.  With Catelyn, I have no idea what the issue is.  I do think it's a possibility that male readers may not like the female characters as much (unless their tomboyish like Arya), but I know that isn't true for me, and I don't know if it's generally true for a majority of readers.

[_Oberyn_]

Castel, on 29 March 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

No it's a mistake an idiot would make. When you're warned about something by people who know better than you you listen, even if you're 15. To not do so is idiocy If you want to rule then you have to listen to what your advisors tell you. And to fucking trust that witch requires a level of naivete and lack of empathy that it just stunning. And on top of that, does she ever actually take responsibility for this? Nope. It's just taken as a foregone conclusion that that shit needs to be done so she could go and also rape Westeros. I don't like her because she's a spoiled brat with a messiah complex that kills people around her. Is it understandable? Perhaps. Should I like it or wave it off because she's young? Fuck no, not when so many people have died because she refused to listen, something that she has no reason not to do.

Yep, that about sums it up. Actuality my gf came up with a perfect definition for Dany a couple of weeks ago when she was discussing the books with her sister. And I quote "She is like Vicky Pollard with dragons"

Edited by _Oberyn_, 29 March 2012 - 11:42 PM.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Castel, on 29 March 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

No it's a mistake an idiot would make. When you're warned about something by people who know better than you you listen, even if you're 15. To not do so is idiocy If you want to rule then you have to listen to what your advisors tell you. And to fucking trust that witch requires a level of naivete and lack of empathy that it just stunning. And on top of that, does she ever actually take responsibility for this? Nope. It's just taken as a foregone conclusion that that shit needs to be done so she could go and also rape Westeros. I don't like her because she's a spoiled brat with a messiah complex that kills people around her. Is it understandable? Perhaps. Should I like it or wave it off because she's young? Fuck no, not when so many people have died because she refused to listen, something that she has no reason not to do.

oh come on.  She doesn't know what the fuck she's doing and she's trying to figure it out.  I mean you can't blame her from ignoring her advisers, she can't really trust any of them and they all give contradictory advice.  I think she does a reasonable job of doing what she thinks is best.  Obviously the result is total disaster, but I mean, that's to be expected. Does she get a lot of random people killed? Yeah. But that was inevitable anyway.  She has 3 dragons, she wants to rule Westeros. That means she gets to do whatever the fuck she wants. If she wanted to rule the summer islands there wouldn't be shit they could do to stop her either.  It is what it is.  I would like nothing more than to see Euro give the ole horn a toot and have Drogon devour Dany though.  Now, that would be fucking awesome. But until someone comes up with another viable anti-dragon strategy the ball is in her court.

Edited by Lord Littlefinger's Lash, 30 March 2012 - 01:05 AM.

[Ser Lepus]

_Oberyn_, on 29 March 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

Dany is been discused to some extent i other posts so i wont even bother commenting. Cat.... I dont know why people insist that her biggest mistake is to let Jaimie go. I would say her biggest mistake was how she raised Sansa. Imho it's her fault Sansa wide eyed moron and everything went downhill from there. We know Sansa is not stupid and we can see the difference in the upbringing between her and Margaery Tyrell.

Good point; Sansa was supposed to marry a great lord or prince; she should have been raised as a sort of understudy for her future hunsband, so she could replace him if he died early or fell sick or went to war, but Sansa wasn't prepared for that.
Many lords seem poorly prepared to rule, and many  westerosi seem to think that all you need to do to be a good lord is to be a fine warrior, but Cat isn't one of them: She gives good advice about ruling to Robb, but she fails to prepare Sansa for her role.

[All Men Must Rhyme]

I think it comes down to a dislike of reading Daenarys, and finding Cat at fault for a lot that went wrong with the Starks, whether rightfully or not is a matter of opinion. On a character level, I dislike Daenarys because she seems egotistical, self righteous and arrogant, with a sense of self worth that comes solely from her surname, and it's irritating to read her repeat it over and over and over and over and over and over again while she uses it as an excuse to invade everybody and expect them to follow her without argument. Catelyn, while I disagreed with a lot she did, never really bored me and her actions were understandable. I thought her death scene was tragic. I will probably relish Daenarys' death scene when it eventually comes. I'm hoping the theme of people attempting to take the Iron Throne and dying continues with her.

[FuzzyJAM]

I honestly don't understand how anyone can think Cat is a terrible person.  The three things levelled against her are:
Treatment of Jon - clearly bad, but not exactly a defining characteristic.  It comes from the fear of her children being disinherited and the representation of her husband's refusal to (in her eyes) fully trust her, putting another woman before her as well as the simple infidelity.  Unacceptable, but if this is the worst character flaw you have then you're not doing too badly.

Capturing Tyrion - based on trusting her sister and a man she thought her brother.  She made a mistake, but it wasn't actually a bad one considering the information she had from (seemingly) reliable sources and only went really badly thanks to her sister's idiocy.

Releasing Jaime - eh. . .this one I'm torn on.  In all honesty, he should have been released in peace talks long before.  She didn't have the right to do it unilaterally, however.  Understandable but unacceptable.  

Other than that, she's a loving mother who sacrifices herself for the good of her children.  She's even humble enough to, having lost her case for peace (which she's the only one sensible enough to argue for), support her son and continue to try to improve his chances of success in a plan she doesn't like.  Basically every piece of advice she gives is good.  I don't get the idea that she's an idiot or whatever.



Dany. . .I can see the Dany hate.  She's kind of boring and inept with an apparent inability to be self-critical.  I still think she has the potential to be a good person, she just needs someone she considers an "equal" to stand up to her and tell her to wake the fuck up and stop being such a moron.

[Milcov]

Castel, on 29 March 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

No it's a mistake an idiot would make. When you're warned about something by people who know better than you you listen, even if you're 15. To not do so is idiocy If you want to rule then you have to listen to what your advisors tell you. And to fucking trust that witch requires a level of naivete and lack of empathy that it just stunning. And on top of that, does she ever actually take responsibility for this? Nope. It's just taken as a foregone conclusion that that shit needs to be done so she could go and also rape Westeros. I don't like her because she's a spoiled brat with a messiah complex that kills people around her. Is it understandable? Perhaps. Should I like it or wave it off because she's young? Fuck no, not when so many people have died because she refused to listen, something that she has no reason not to do.

Seriously? She was 13 when Drogo died, I mean the gods forbid that a 13 year old girl baulks at seeing women get raped and butchered. And what advisers? She has 2 handmaids who were basically former slaves, 3 bloodriders who are just glorified Dothraki warriors and then Jorah who was selling her secrets to the Iron Throne anyway. Barristan comes along and she should listen to him more, but it's not like she's the only character who doesn't listen to sound advice. Robb stupidly marries Jeyne and he's older than Dany yet I don't see the hate for him around here.

So against Dany is that she is a naive 13/14 year old girl who seems to be in a case of Stockholm Syndrome after being sold to a barbaric warlord by her brother who spends his life abusing her and is then killed by her warlord for threatening to kill her baby. And then after all that she makes a mistake. Wow.

You say she's a spoiled brat, well actually she isn't. She was sold to a barbarian for an army and then lost everything. She effectively made herself or took advantage of having dragons if you refuse to acknowledge her part in that. I mean obviously Aegon had Westeros handed to him on a plate as well.

She's also not the only person to make a deal out of her name and sigil. "Direwolves aren't afraid" "A Lannister always pays his debts" "A Lioness" etc. Everyone goes on about it, yet only Dany gets hated for it. And you can't forgive juvenile mistakes for being made by children? If so I expect you to hate the following:

Robb
Half of the red keep as their servants are in the employ of LF or Varys
Eddard
Sansa
and many more

And people die because of her actions? Yeah they do, but that can be said about loads of others. You seem to think its worse that she doesn't intend for all these people to die when most other people actively plan to kill all those around them. Obviously Daenerys is evil for having good intentions and fighting against slavery.

[Ran]

Quote

. Imho it's her fault Sansa wide eyed moron

It's an opinion, all right, and doubtlessly an honest one -- but it's also wrong. Ned raised those children as much as Catelyn did. Perhaps more so. Pay attention to how he dealt with Sansa in King's Landing, and realize that Ned never gave her the same heart-to-hearts that he gave Arya. Sansa's as much Ned's daughter -- and in her way, his rose-tinted view of an honorable world -- as Arya is.

Catelyn is rather more of a clear-eyed realist than Ned is, and I find it very  dubious and very suspect that somehow she and she alone is responsible for Sansa being anything but.

As to the Daenerys hatred, I'm glad you all are wonderful people who could cope with trying to defend the lives of hundreds of thousands of people you've tried to rescue from the abject horror of slavery, in the face of insurgents and enemy armies, without breaking a sweat. Or maybe you're all tyrannical megalomaniacs who could abandon those hundreds of thousands because, hey, you're watching out for number one.

Alas, Dany is only human.

Edited by Ran, 30 March 2012 - 05:52 AM.

[Free Northman]

Castel, on 29 March 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

I dislike Dany because far too often she just ignores what she knows to be true out of sheer stubbornness.  She's just an idiot who doesn't understand people, like that maegi. Yes, your husband killed her entire village for you, so that you could go to Westeros and you just imagine that people are just going to what? Help you because you saved their lives?  I understand that a lot of this is naivete but if she would shut the fuck up about being the blood of the dragon and actually listened to someone  a ton of stuff wouldn't have happened. As for the Meereeneese debacle, it was unforgivable. She sat paralyzed by fear when everyone who fought and died for her was put in danger.  If she had a little foresight she would have considered how people would react to her actions and either gone all the way or done nothing at all, there are no half-measures.

As for Catelyn, her treatment of Jon was despicable. What would it have cost her to keep Jon at Winterfell? Nothing, it's not like Jon was in line for the North, he was a bastard. And the hypocrisy of it galls me. She took feelings that were rightfully meant for Ned and transferred them to an innocent child. A child that had done nothing to deserve it.  

Then we have her freeing of Jaime, and the position that put Robb in with his men. Men who had lost children at the hands of the Kingslayer were apparently just supposed to sit about while Catelyn threw away their best strategic asset. She created a situation where Robb would have been forced to jail his own mother or punish her in some fashion.This is apart from all the other things mentioned. like her trusting the word of a man she thought killed her son. A man who could just have easily took Jaime, jailed Brienne and given her nothing.

Perfect post. My feelings exactly.

[Free Northman]

Ran, on 30 March 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

It's an opinion, all right, and doubtlessly an honest one -- but it's also wrong. Ned raised those children as much as Catelyn did. Perhaps more so. Pay attention to how he dealt with Sansa in King's Landing, and realize that Ned never gave her the same heart-to-hearts that he gave Arya. Sansa's as much Ned's daughter -- and in her way, his rose-tinted view of an honorable world -- as Arya is.

I think you transpose cause and effect here. You argue that it is Ned's treatment of Sansa like a child, while he treated Arya more like an adult, that caused Sansa to be a "wide eyed moron", to quote the previous poster.

I would suggest that it is because Sansa was naive and childish in the first place, and less capable of handling the truth than her little sister Arya, that he treated her like a child as a consequence.

How come Arya turned out so perceptive at 9 while Sansa was so naive at 13? This is simply because one has far more common sense than the other, despite not yet being 10 years old.

Edited by Free Northman, 30 March 2012 - 06:21 AM.

[David Selig]

Sansa was 11 when she got separated from Catelyn for good. I honestly don't get those people who blame her mother that she wasn't some kind of political expert and cynical realist at this age. Robert's marriage offer was a surprise, Sansa's parents expected to have several more years to finish her education and build on what she already had - knowledge of the Houses of Westeros, courtly manners, etc.

Edited by David Selig, 30 March 2012 - 09:25 AM.

[Ran]

Free Northman,

Quote

You argue that it is Ned's treatment of Sansa like a child

No, I'm pointing out that Ned raised his children together with Catelyn, and that we have clear signs that he treats her differently than he does Arya in line with that.

Is Sansa inherently more innocent and naive than Arya? Maybe, but then that's something she's born with, if it's inherent, and it's not something Catelyn or Ned did. They had a baby girl who grew up to be a sweet, gentle, pretty girl who was perfectly suited to learning etiquette and needlepoint and how to play the bells, and they raised her accordingly, aiming her at the life they thought best.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

I have explained like a thousand times why I dislike Daenerys with a passion so I don't want to bore people, but LadyodtheNorth72 first post on this thread explained my feelings exactly.

About Catelyn, the truth is that I've never cared about her, is not hate, is just I don't care. I, of course, hated the way he spoke to Jon and how she decides to blame a kid who is not to blame on that matter, above his husband. She said it herself, what bothered her was that she had to see Jon everyday, she wouldnt have cared about a thousand bastards from Ned as long as they were not around Winterfell. That was pretty mean IMO.

[butterbumps!]

Ran, on 30 March 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

As to the Daenerys hatred, I'm glad you all are wonderful people who could cope with trying to defend the lives of hundreds of thousands of people you've tried to rescue from the abject horror of slavery, in the face of insurgents and enemy armies, without breaking a sweat. Or maybe you're all tyrannical megalomaniacs who could abandon those hundreds of thousands because, hey, you're watching out for number one.

I think Cat is one of the more clever, level-headed characters in the series.  One example is when Tyrion (pretty much universally considered clever) expresses embarrassment/ jealousy when Cat outwitted him into thinking he was being taken to Winterfell when she captured him from the inn.  Of course I don't like her treatment of Jon (largely because I like Jon), but it could be argued that this treatment actually prepared him for the realities he's come to face better than the other lords who'd been mollycoddled.

But Ran touched on something with Dany that's a bit of a sore point for me.  I don't hate Dany personally, I find her character to be one of the most- if not THE most- interesting to discuss, and I think her queenly situation is more complex than the other iron throne hopefuls.  But the way she handles pressure, variously processes and ignores information, cannot control her temper, administer clear and consistent justice/ policy, and hasn't quite defined exactly what she wants, makes me not want to see her rule.   While I confess that her personal character does not resonate with me (and I admit to being more bothered by her bloodline mantras then elsewhere), my issue with Dany has more to do with whether I want to see her continue to rule.  

I think that a good ruler should have certain qualities and rule because of merit (my idealistic American bias, perhaps), and I don't think that what I've seen of Dany's abilities are in line with this.  I've seen a lot of arguments that want to see Dany rule "because she's suffered so much."  I think that having suffered = sympathetic character, but I don't think that suffering = merit (or being a good ruler).