399 replies to this topic

[Free Northman]

Ran, on 30 March 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

Free Northman,



No, I'm pointing out that Ned raised his children together with Catelyn, and that we have clear signs that he treats her differently than he does Arya in line with that.

Is Sansa inherently more innocent and naive than Arya? Maybe, but then that's something she's born with, if it's inherent, and it's not something Catelyn or Ned did. They had a baby girl who grew up to be a sweet, gentle, pretty girl who was perfectly suited to learning etiquette and needlepoint and how to play the bells, and they raised her accordingly, aiming her at the life they thought best.

Fair enough.

I almost got sidetracked into a discussion on Sansa by your post. I agree that both Ned and Catelyn were responsible for the raising of Sansa. On the Sansa vs Arya topic, I merely feel that both of them were exposed to exactly the same upbringing, but Arya seems to have come out of it far more level headed and perceptive, while Sansa emerged naive and empty headed.

But that's indeed not the topic of this discussion. What maybe touches on this discussion, is that the way Sansa turned out was probably the result of her submitting to her mother's influence - knit, learn songs, dress prettily etc. - to a much greater extent than the rebellious Arya did.

[Lyanna Stark]

Val the Wildling Princess, on 30 March 2012 - 06:33 AM, said:

About Catelyn, the truth is that I've never cared about her, is not hate, is just I don't care. I, of course, hated the way he spoke to Jon and how she decides to blame a kid who is not to blame on that matter, above his husband. She said it herself, what bothered her was that she had to see Jon everyday, she wouldnt have cared about a thousand bastards from Ned as long as they were not around Winterfell. That was pretty mean IMO.

Am I the only one who thinks Cat had very good reasons to be upset that Jon was around? It's seen as a huge slight for a husband to raise his bastards with his normal children. It's normally only muppets like Walder Frey who does this, so Cat had good reason to feel rather put upon by it, especially considering that she and Ned had a very happy marriage apart from that and that Ned did respect her in every other way.

Further, Ned always refused to tell her who the mother was or if he felt anything for her. The rumours Cat heard was that it was the ethereal beauty Ashara Dayne, which must have been pretty painful to hear, especially since that indicates that Ned preferred Ashara both before and after his wedding to Cat. So yeah, Cat had to endure the product of what she thought as her husband cheating on her every single day, plus the added embarrassment of what outsiders thought of it.

Despite this, she only snaps at Jon once, and that is under extreme pressure. Apart from that one time, we don't see her treat Jon unfairly or being mean to him.

[Greywolf2375]

Lyanna Stark, on 30 March 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:

Am I the only one who thinks Cat had very good reasons to be upset that Jon was around? It's seen as a huge slight for a husband to raise his bastards with his normal children. It's normally only muppets like Walder Frey who does this, so Cat had good reason to feel rather put upon by it, especially considering that she and Ned had a very happy marriage apart from that and that Ned did respect her in every other way.

Further, Ned always refused to tell her who the mother was or if he felt anything for her. The rumours Cat heard was that it was the ethereal beauty Ashara Dayne, which must have been pretty painful to hear, especially since that indicates that Ned preferred Ashara both before and after his wedding to Cat. So yeah, Cat had to endure the product of what she thought as her husband cheating on her every single day, plus the added embarrassment of what outsiders thought of it.

Despite this, she only snaps at Jon once, and that is under extreme pressure. Apart from that one time, we don't see her treat Jon unfairly or being mean to him.

No, definitely not the only one to think that - I have never understood the "but she SHOULD have mothered him because he was there" argument.

Honestly, I've always disliked Catelyn because of how she is described as speaking.  More often than not her words are described as "sharp" or something similar which reminds me of a few people IRL I dislike, and that imagery formed my picture of her in my mind.  That type of association impacted my views on some others as well to varying degrees.

[Lady Hodor]

Danerys is actually one of my favourite characters, tying maybe with Arya and Tyrion.
Catelyn is ok, I have no hatred towards her, but neither any love, she is simply another character.

I think that in these (amazing) books, the enormous range of characters and the feelings they gain from so many readers make it far too vast for any one character in the narrative to be defined as a world favorite, or the most despised.

Though I hate Sandor Clegane. He plans to rape Sansa and hits Arya over the head with an axe. What has he got against the Stark girls?
- Sorry, that was off topic, but I felt the need to express my rage

[butterbumps!]

I agree with you, LyannaStark!

I did get the sense, though, that Cat always made Jon feel like an outsider in the family ("a bastard, yes, Lady Catelyn never let me forget that" or something to that effect).   It wasn't in a purely objective sense the most gracious thing she could do, but I think it's a very human and realistic reaction to the situation, and far more reasonable than other reactions to bastardy (I mean, we see other women have bastards killed).  

Greywolf2375, on 30 March 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:

Honestly, I've always disliked Catelyn because of how she is described as speaking.  More often than not her words are described as "sharp" or something similar which reminds me of a few people IRL I dislike, and that imagery formed my picture of her in my mind.  That type of association impacted my views on some others as well to varying degrees.

I always liked the "sharpness" actually.  It reminded me of the no-nonsense, sensible way of Mary Poppins or something (I know, I know it sounds silly).   I like the assertiveness and conviction it implies.

[Free Northman]

I think people should stop seeing Catelyn as a Stark by extension, which seems to soften the views of some on her.

Rather see her in the context of her family. Lysa is a harridan who poisoned her husband. Hoster seems to have been incredibly stubborn and willfull, to the point of not speaking to his beloved brother for years because of an insignificant dispute.

And the brother himself chose exile over the same insignificant dispute.

In that context, it is not difficult to see that family trait of stubborn, willfull hard headedness reflected in Catelyn as well.

The Tullys aren't nice people. They happen to be allied to the main protagonists of the story, but that is just coincidence. In truth, they are some of the most unpleasant people in Westeros.

It is also no wonder that Edmure turned out a weakling considering the incredibly judgmental, harsh and patronising way Catelyn acts towards him. Imagine having an older sister treating you like that throughout your childhood.

No. Catelyn isn't a nice person. And we have plenty of evidence for it.

Edited by Free Northman, 30 March 2012 - 07:30 AM.

[Greywolf2375]

butterbumps!, on 30 March 2012 - 07:22 AM, said:

I agree with you, LyannaStark!

I did get the sense, though, that Cat always made Jon feel like an outsider in the family ("a bastard, yes, Lady Catelyn never let me forget that" or something to that effect).   It wasn't in a purely objective sense the most gracious thing she could do, but I think it's a very human and realistic reaction to the situation, and far more reasonable than other reactions to bastardy (I mean, we see other women have bastards killed).  



I always liked the "sharpness" actually.  It reminded me of the no-nonsense, sensible way of Mary Poppins or something (I know, I know it sounds silly).   I like the assertiveness and conviction it implies.

I think it is a great characterization point, it does help define her - I'm just not a fan of hers.

[Warhammer]

Catelyn gets a pass from me for birthing Arya.

I think part of my problem with Dany is her poor supporting cast. I don't want to read about Jizzrag the Lorax (what I call him) and his bat wing hair.

Nothing feels real in her story, and the realness is the best part of ASOIAF.

[Awesome Oberyn Martell]

Free Northman, on 30 March 2012 - 07:23 AM, said:

I think people should stop seeing Catelyn as a Stark by extension, which seems to soften the views of some on her.

Rather see her in the context of her family. Lysa is a harridan who poisoned her husband. Hoster seems to have been incredibly stubborn and willfull, to the point of not speaking to his beloved brother for years because of an insignificant dispute.

And the brother himself chose exile over the same insignificant dispute.

In that context, it is not difficult to see that family trait of stubborn, willfull hard headedness reflected in Catelyn as well.

The Tullys aren't nice people. They happen to be allied to the main protagonists of the story, but that is just coincidence. In truth, they are some of the most unpleasant people in Westeros.

It is also no wonder that Edmure turned out a weakling considering the incredibly judgmental, harsh and patronising way Catelyn acts towards him. Imagine having an older sister treating you like that throughout your childhood.

No. Catelyn isn't a nice person. And we have plenty of evidence for it.

I think this is actually very true, though I like Brynden.

Hoster is rude and clearly a pain.
Lysa is horrendous.
Edmure is weak and pathetic.
Catelyn is a total bitch.

Regarding Jon, she doesn't have to mother him, she just has to be courteous, it isn't Jon's fault at all. She manages to say she always did her duty in other things (such as marrying Ned) and makes herself sound hard done by, she was clearly Hoster's favourite through childhood, humiliated Petyr and thought herself completely above him and went for Brandon who by all accounts sounds like a giant douche. For all the dutiful things she does she's horrible to Jon, loses the Karstarks and releases their best bargaining chip in the war. That turned out to be irrelevant as Robb had already cost them the Freys, but say the Freys hadn't killed them. The war was lost they could have returned Jaime for peace and left Sansa as a hostage (ala Greyjoys with Theon), but Catelyn ruined that.

She isn't as dutiful as she thinks, she's a horrible person.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

Lyanna Stark, on 30 March 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:

Am I the only one who thinks Cat had very good reasons to be upset that Jon was around? It's seen as a huge slight for a husband to raise his bastards with his normal children. It's normally only muppets like Walder Frey who does this, so Cat had good reason to feel rather put upon by it, especially considering that she and Ned had a very happy marriage apart from that and that Ned did respect her in every other way.

Further, Ned always refused to tell her who the mother was or if he felt anything for her. The rumours Cat heard was that it was the ethereal beauty Ashara Dayne, which must have been pretty painful to hear, especially since that indicates that Ned preferred Ashara both before and after his wedding to Cat. So yeah, Cat had to endure the product of what she thought as her husband cheating on her every single day, plus the added embarrassment of what outsiders thought of it.

Despite this, she only snaps at Jon once, and that is under extreme pressure. Apart from that one time, we don't see her treat Jon unfairly or being mean to him.

Of course she can be upset, but as I said the kid doesn't deserve her hatred. Telling one kid whose biggest mistake is to have been born a bastard "it should have been you who fell from that window" makes you a bad person in my eyes, if its ok for you, good, for me it isnt. And we only have "heard" her once being directly mean to Jon, but that wasnt probably the only time since we are inside Jon's head a lot of times and he remembers how Robb tells him "my mother says you cant be the Lord of Winterfell", or from Catelyn herself when Robb wanted to name Jon his heir. She didnt care if Jon was a good person, all that matters to her is that he is the son of his husband and another woman and that is a very selfish and stupid behaviour IMO.

Edited by Val the Wildling Princess, 30 March 2012 - 08:12 AM.

[Greywolf2375]

Awesome Oberyn Martell, on 30 March 2012 - 07:52 AM, said:

Regarding Jon, she doesn't have to mother him, she just has to be courteous, it isn't Jon's fault at all.

Why does she have to be courteous to her husband's bastard?

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She manages to say she always did her duty in other things (such as marrying Ned) and makes herself sound hard done by, she was clearly Hoster's favourite through childhood, humiliated Petyr and thought herself completely above him and went for Brandon who by all accounts sounds like a giant douche.

How did she humilate Petyr?  She was betrothed to someone else and was not attracted to Petyr as he was to her.  Was he humilated?  Yes - but not by her doing.

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For all the dutiful things she does she's horrible to Jon,

Aside from the outburt at Bran's bed, when is she horrible to him?

Quote

loses the Karstarks and releases their best bargaining chip in the war. That turned out to be irrelevant as Robb had already cost them the Freys, but say the Freys hadn't killed them. The war was lost they could have returned Jaime for peace and left Sansa as a hostage (ala Greyjoys with Theon), but Catelyn ruined that.

She isn't as dutiful as she thinks, she's a horrible person.

She's every bit as dutiful as she thinks - Family, Duty, Honor.   Did she make mistakes, sure - but name any one major character in the series that has not made a major mistake.

[Dacie]

Val the Wildling Princess, on 30 March 2012 - 06:33 AM, said:

I have explained like a thousand times why I dislike Daenerys with a passion so I don't want to bore people, but LadyodtheNorth72 first post on this thread explained my feelings exactly.

About Catelyn, the truth is that I've never cared about her, is not hate, is just I don't care. I, of course, hated the way he spoke to Jon and how she decides to blame a kid who is not to blame on that matter, above his husband. She said it herself, what bothered her was that she had to see Jon everyday, she wouldnt have cared about a thousand bastards from Ned as long as they were not around Winterfell. That was pretty mean IMO.

I agree with this very much. I really don't hate Catelyn. It's more...indifference. I do believe she has suffered one of the cruelest fates in all of Westeros--believing all her children dead before being killed herself, only to be resurrected as some zombie hell bent on revenge.

As for the Jon thing, it was not his fault Ned chose to bring him home and raise him with his own legitimate children. If Catelyn had a problem with that she should have taken it up with her husband. You cannot blame the child for the sins of the parent.

[Lyanna Stark]

Lady Hodor, on 30 March 2012 - 07:22 AM, said:

Though I hate Sandor Clegane. He plans to rape Sansa and hits Arya over the head with an axe. What has he got against the Stark girls?
- Sorry, that was off topic, but I felt the need to express my rage

When does he plan on raping Sansa exactly? Somewhere inbetween Joffrey's beatings? The second might not be a very smooth method, but at the time he didn't really have a lot of choice in how to stop Arya from running into Frey territory and certain death. But you know, nvm that he saved Sansa's life twice and Arya's at least once, he should have done it in a prettier fashion, and maybe been prettier, too.

Awesome Oberyn Martell, on 30 March 2012 - 07:52 AM, said:

Regarding Jon, she doesn't have to mother him, she just has to be courteous, it isn't Jon's fault at all. She manages to say she always did her duty in other things (such as marrying Ned) and makes herself sound hard done by, she was clearly Hoster's favourite through childhood, humiliated Petyr and thought herself completely above him and went for Brandon who by all accounts sounds like a giant douche. For all the dutiful things she does she's horrible to Jon, loses the Karstarks and releases their best bargaining chip in the war. That turned out to be irrelevant as Robb had already cost them the Freys, but say the Freys hadn't killed them. The war was lost they could have returned Jaime for peace and left Sansa as a hostage (ala Greyjoys with Theon), but Catelyn ruined that.

She isn't as dutiful as she thinks, she's a horrible person.

She doesn't have to be courteous at all. From the ASOIAF wiki: A nobly born wife has the right to take insult at her husband's bastards being introduced into her household and being commensurate in rank with her legally born children.

Cat had every right to feel put upon and to make certain that Jon knew he was a bastard. That's not Jon's fault, of course. In fact, this whole debacle could have been avoided had Ned just hinted that Jon was Lyanna's, but he never did. If you want to blame anyone for Cat being surly with Jon, place the blame where it belongs: on Ned.

Are you also seriously arguing that she should have been nicer to Petyr and done what? Married him? Slept with him? Or what, exactly?

GiveMeSomeSnow, on 30 March 2012 - 08:14 AM, said:

As for the Jon thing, it was not his fault Ned chose to bring him home and raise him with his own legitimate children. If Catelyn had a problem with that she should have taken it up with her husband. You cannot blame the child for the sins of the parent.

She did. Ned told her to STFU. How can people forget this?

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 30 March 2012 - 08:26 AM.

[Awesome Oberyn Martell]

Greywolf2375, on 30 March 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

Why does she have to be courteous to her husband's bastard?

Duty. Honour. I never said nice, but she could refrain from being a giant turd to him. The anger and resentment should be at Ned, not Jon. Her beloved children also like him and he is good to them. That ought to be enough to merely be polite to Jon if not warm.

Quote

How did she humilate Petyr?  She was betrothed to someone else and was not attracted to Petyr as he was to her.  Was he humilated?  Yes - but not by her doing.

I think Petyr felt humiliated by the begging Brandon in the duel. He thought Cat worthy to duel and die for, Cat wouldn't even let him have that. She still treat him as a baby.

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Aside from the outburt at Bran's bed, when is she horrible to him?

We have no direct examples, but stuff that Jon says about how he was never allowed to forget he was a bastard. It's quite evident that she was as far from nice to Jon as you could get. And that outburst at Bran's bed is appalling. Jon who's been a great brother to Bran, and is leaving to join an organisation where he's there for life has come to say goodbye to his badly hurt brother and she's disgraceful in her behaviour. What's more, she never seems to regret it when she regains her faculties, if that's what had happened.

Quote

She's every bit as dutiful as she thinks - Family, Duty, Honor.   Did she make mistakes, sure - but name any one major character in the series that has not made a major mistake.

With the exception of agreeing to Hoster's marriage to Brandon and then Ned she never really expresses much duty or honour. And it sounds like she quite liked Brandon anyway so it was in agreeing to marry Ned. Which admittedly was quite dutiful but she isn't in regards to Jon or in how she handles things when she's with Robb during the war. Catelyn costs him a portion of his army and all his leverage in potential peace talks. She puts family above all the others, something I never contested.

[Awesome Oberyn Martell]

Quote

She did. Ned told her to STFU. How can people forget this?

Then she should have kept her mouth shut and kept it shut to Jon as well.

[Lyanna Stark]

Awesome Oberyn Martell, on 30 March 2012 - 08:21 AM, said:

Then she should have kept her mouth shut and kept it shut to Jon as well.

Right... so she should just have dismissed all her feelings because her husband told her to STFU? Don't you think that's totally ridiculous and not at all likely? Not to mention that it shows a complete failure to empathise at all with Cat.

As has been stated by me and others, husbands bringing their bastards to be brought up with his trueborn children is seen as a slight to the wife, so Cat was within her rights to really sulk about this, yet she doesn't. She's certainly not motherly or friendly to Jon, but apart from the time after Bran's fall, we don't see her going out of her way to be rude either.

As a matter of fact, she never did bring it up again (dutifully) but that hardly does anything for her position.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 30 March 2012 - 08:25 AM.

[Greywolf2375]

Val the Wildling Princess, on 30 March 2012 - 08:10 AM, said:

Of course she can be upset, but as I said the kid doesn't deserve her hatred.

In the books, Catelyn does not hate Jon - that was changed for the TV show where Kit said it in an interview, but in the books it is not hatred for him.

Quote

Telling one kid whose biggest mistake is to have been born a bastard "it should have been you who fell from that window" makes you a bad person in my eyes, if its ok for you, good, for me it isnt.

So that act offsets what she has done for her children and how she has raised them?  The information and advice she has given her husband?  The caring for her family?

Quote

And we only have "heard" her once being directly mean to Jon, but that wasnt probably the only time since we are inside Jon's head a lot of times and he remembers how Robb tells him "my mother says you cant be the Lord of Winterfell"

So the truth makes her a bad person too?  that makes her mean?

Quote

, or from Catelyn herself when Robb wanted to name Jon his heir. She didnt care if Jon was a good person, all that matters to her is that he is the son of his husband and another woman and that is a very selfish and stupid behaviour IMO.

Yes, Catelyn correctly advised Robb since Jon is not part of her family.    Why should she care?  She has no tie to him, she has no responsibilitly to him - her focus is on her family, her children.  As it should be.

[Greywolf2375]

Awesome Oberyn Martell, on 30 March 2012 - 08:21 AM, said:

Then she should have kept her mouth shut and kept it shut to Jon as well.

And again, aside from the outburst at Bran's bed, when did she do anything against him individually?

[Awesome Oberyn Martell]

Lyanna Stark, on 30 March 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

Right... so she should just have dismissed all her feelings because her husband told her to STFU? Don't you think that's totally ridiculous and not at all likely? Not to mention that it shows a complete failure to empathise at all with Cat.

As has been stated by me and others, husbands bringing their bastards to be brought up with his trueborn children is seen as a slight to the wife, so Cat was within her rights to really sulk about this, yet she doesn't. She's certainly not motherly or friendly to Jon, but apart from the time after Bran's fall, we don't see her going out of her way to be rude either.

As a matter of fact, she never did bring it up again (dutifully) but that hardly does anything for her position.

The fact is she's cold to Jon and outright disgusting on one occasion. Jon is nothing but great to her kids. She justifies it as his threat to Robb's claim to Winterfell but that just isn't the case. It's apparent to everyone that Jon isn't Ramsay. Jon is nothing but great to Robb, Bran and Arya. Probably Rickon as well, as Sansa is more like her mother it's likely her relationship with Jon wasn't as great as the other three.

If Jon were a legitimate threat to her children then I'd sympathise, but to suggest that Jon should be near death instead of Bran is horrible and to not just be amiable with the poor lad is outright rude. She should take her problem up with Ned and it should end with Ned. Ned tells her to drop it and she does. That doesn't mean she should take it up with Jon. I find it hard to empathise with Cat as there's nothing she does or is that I think is good. Or nowhere near enough to make me feel bad for her or like her.

[Lyanna Stark]

Awesome Oberyn Martell, on 30 March 2012 - 08:36 AM, said:

The fact is she's cold to Jon and outright disgusting on one occasion. Jon is nothing but great to her kids. She justifies it as his threat to Robb's claim to Winterfell but that just isn't the case. It's apparent to everyone that Jon isn't Ramsay. Jon is nothing but great to Robb, Bran and Arya. Probably Rickon as well, as Sansa is more like her mother it's likely her relationship with Jon wasn't as great as the other three.

If Jon were a legitimate threat to her children then I'd sympathise, but to suggest that Jon should be near death instead of Bran is horrible and to not just be amiable with the poor lad is outright rude. She should take her problem up with Ned and it should end with Ned. Ned tells her to drop it and she does. That doesn't mean she should take it up with Jon. I find it hard to empathise with Cat as there's nothing she does or is that I think is good. Or nowhere near enough to make me feel bad for her or like her.

Of course Jon can be a threat if someone decides to legitimise him. It is a possibility and has torn houses apart on strife before (see Targaryens).

Further, you are asking her to stop feeling, which she cannot. She did take it up with Ned, like you suggested, yet he told her to STFU and didn't give any explanation, which is hurtful and only continues her embarrassment. Cat is injured by Ned here since he refuses to be truthful with her (since it's likely Jon is not his son). It's Ned's lie that is the problem. Jon is a walking, talking evidence of Ned cheating on Cat and defiling their marriage and bringing Jon into the family only makes it more painful for her and is a constant reminder, making it harder for her to forgive and forget.

Nobody should demand that Cat love or be nice to Jon as that is totally unreasonable. What you should demand instead is that Ned be truthful with her, but he chose not to.