131 replies to this topic

[karaddin]

I think this is only the second thread I've started!

I wanted to spin this discussion off from several different things in recent threads as I think there is some common ground tying them together.  The main prompt was the brief discussion in Chataya's thread about career direction for darling on how men seem to be increasingly struggling to find fulfillment, and this being in part to the way that men view career success as so vital to self identity.  I read a book in the last year after my marriage first fell apart called Manhood by Steve Biddulph which was largely focused on this topic.  He puts forward that the nature of western society in the Industrial Revolution and then particularly the couple of generations of the World Wars have led to men losing the knowledge of how to be men.  As they don't know, they can't teach their sons and the problem has gotten worse as the generations have rolled by.  In it's place we've had this cliche of tough, emotionless and in many cases agressive image of being a man and that it's something we need to change.  

One of the key things in this is connecting with our fathers in a way that most men don't and convincing them it's ok to talk about how we feel, something which I had never done with mine.  Then the level of his concern for me when the marriage broke down cracked his facade and I realised he really did care, not just dutifully because he was my father, but he really did love me.  I got him to read this book as well and then we had a really good talk and it's like discovering a new person in my life that was there the whole time and I just hadn't seen them.

Theres also a whole lot more to the book and talking about practices that pretty much all historical cultures have had, and we have lost allowing boys to just stumble along through life staying as boys and only becoming men if and when they have to go through traumatic life changing events.

Where I wanted to link this in to feminism is an idea I've seen starting to become more common which is that a lot of the changes that still need to happen in pursuit of equality are actually changes to men and how society views them, rather than how society views women.  This can be seen in things like mens rights to similar paternity leave as womens maternity leave - as long as there are institutionalized disincentives for men looking after children and incentives for women to do so it's going to skew career progression.  Obviously there is more to it than that as the mother of a newborn has physical recovery that doesn't exist for the father, but its an example of things.  However on top of getting the opportunity to do so, society also needs to change it's attitudes towards it so that it's seen as just as valid for the father to be the one taking care of a young child as it is for the mother and societal attitudes are a lot harder to change.

On the topic of societal attitudes towards men, I saw this video a while ago talking about the idea of the "disposable male", while I don't agree with everything she says I can certainly see some merit to what she is saying about the way society shapes how men think about themselves.  The video is here.  This woman had some follow on videos discussing mens reproductive rights and the idea of men being able to opt out of having a child they don't want, which was something Raidne talked about in the reproductive freedom thread, although Raidne was advocating more stringent conditions around the man being under the impression contraception was in use etc.

The last thing I wanted to tie in was the idea that some homophobic feelings originate from a sexist mindset, or that they both come from the same place.  This was in the "How to convince a bigot they are a bigot" thread, and it's not something I've seen specifically stated before, but it rings true for me.  I can see how someone with a sexist mindset could certainly arrive at a homophobic place on the basis of viewing gays as turning themselves into women.  I was hoping someone could expand on this, if there is any data that shows a firm correlation or if it's just speculation?

It seems to me that addressing societies attitudes to any of these things should involve changing all of them.  Men finding fulfillment requires acceptance of a different idea of what it means to be a man, an idea that also includes a better attitude towards women and varying sexuality and gender identity.

Sorry for the long OP, I'm rambling a bit due to posting this late at night, but I wanted to get the thread started before the weekend low point for forum activity!

[peterbound]

We did a pretty long and contentious thread on the idea of the 'disposable male' sparked by that very same video.  

As for the manly man idea.  I like to consider myself fairly masculine.  My dad did a pretty good job on teaching me typical 'man' shit.  Construction, hard work, hunting, fighting, aggression.  Some of it's panned out, some of it's been for the detriment of my over all existence.  I do find, though, that the only time i get really depressed, or out of sorts is when my wife tries to make me tone that shit down.  I've been doing my best to pass this shit onto my son, but it ain't easy.

As for the loss of work and direction.  I could see that.  For a while i thought it was do to my white trash/small town upbringing, and the idea that i was programed to be a cog in the machine.  When i stepped out of that machine at 30 to go back to school, i was adrift. Lost.  No direction.  The more and more of my peers at school that i talked to felt the same way.  That american society had programmed us, as men, to be defined by the work we perform, or the job position we hold.  My extended period of time spent in Europe helped me over come this, those cats over there don't really give a shit about work like we do... or should I say aren't obsessed with it.  My time in spain and england helped me develop a 'work to live' attitude instead of a 'live to work' attitude.  When i let some of that shit go, i ended up being a lot happier.

[Raidne]

I agree 100% with that. I think feminism is stuck about there right now. Some feminists get hostile to any notion of developing men and promoting their happiness in the current culture because many times, unlike your OP, it's a smokescreen for a call to back to the earlier "when men were real men culture." So, these two separate streams need to be clearly separated. The other is called the men's rights movement, as far as I can tell.

[karaddin]

peterbound, on 30 March 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

We did a pretty long and contentious thread on the idea of the 'disposable male' sparked by that very same video.  

Grr no idea how I missed that thread! Will look for it now.
ETA: In case I can't find it, do you remember the thread title?

Edited by karaddin, 30 March 2012 - 10:52 AM.

[peterbound]

karaddin, on 30 March 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

Grr no idea how I missed that thread! Will look for it now.

ha, it was a while back.  i'm sure Raids started it, so she could point you in the right direction.  Feel safe in the fact that if there is a disturbance in the feminist force, Raids will not only link it, but make a long ass OP about it, and it will in some way piss off Stego.

[karaddin]

peterbound, on 30 March 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

ha, it was a while back.  i'm sure Raids started it, so she could point you in the right direction.  Feel safe in the fact that if there is a disturbance in the feminist force, Raids will not only link it, but make a long ass OP about it, and it will in some way piss off Stego.

That's why I'm so surprised I missed it, I was surprised when I first saw it that I hadn't seen a thread from Raids about it!

[Nukelavee]

Stego is a feminist?

Damn.

[Euphail]

karaddin, on 30 March 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

On the topic of societal attitudes towards men, I saw this video a while ago talking about the idea of the "disposable male", while I don't agree with everything she says I can certainly see some merit to what she is saying about the way society shapes how men think about themselves.  The video is here.  This woman had some follow on videos discussing mens reproductive rights and the idea of men being able to opt out of having a child they don't want, which was something Raidne talked about in the reproductive freedom thread, although Raidne was advocating more stringent conditions around the man being under the impression contraception was in use etc.

That video was amazing, and thank you very much for posting it. It is very much how I feel as a man: men are a collections of actions to prove their worth. Men must do to have worth, where women are - and therefore valuable.

I don't think I'm a sexist, and try to be aware of my actions in relation to relative fairness - though I have to say that I sometimes wonder in the context of feminism what my role as a man is, or if I even have one. I try to find worth in the world today, though it's not easy. Get a good education to get a good job (Check). Be the best I can be in everything, and don't complain about it being difficult - because a man always has it easier than a woman.

Thank you very much for this post, I found it interesting and informative. It gave me something to think about.

[peterbound]

Nukelavee, on 30 March 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

Stego is a feminist?

Damn.

I'm sure he's into equality for all the ladies.  I was just referring to his and raids inability to agree on, well, anything.  I try to throw it in on occasion.

[Triskele]

Very interesting video.

Without commenting on everything in it, I can say that the notion of doing or acts really hits home for me.  I often feel like a loser with no identity because I haven't accomplished enough, but if you were to compel me to make a list of accomplishments, it wouldn't be that bad at all.  It makes me wonder if any degree of accomplishment would make this feeling go away.

[Nukelavee]

I was just pretending to misunderstand what you said, because I liked the absurdity of reversing their likely positions.

And because I started a reply, deleted it because I felt the topic deserved more work, but, y'know, the board said I had to post something.

[S John]

karaddin, on 30 March 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

On the topic of societal attitudes towards men, I saw this video a while ago talking about the idea of the "disposable male", while I don't agree with everything she says I can certainly see some merit to what she is saying about the way society shapes how men think about themselves.  The video is here.  This woman had some follow on videos discussing mens reproductive rights and the idea of men being able to opt out of having a child they don't want, which was something Raidne talked about in the reproductive freedom thread, although Raidne was advocating more stringent conditions around the man being under the impression contraception was in use etc.

I don't remember that thread... wonder if that video ruffled any feathers.

Euphail, on 30 March 2012 - 11:02 AM, said:

It is very much how I feel as a man: men are a collections of actions to prove their worth. Men must do to have worth

As far as I'm concerned, its true.  Maybe not fundamentally true, but certainly true within our culture.

[Twelve Angry Nonmen]

Triskele, on 30 March 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

It makes me wonder if any degree of accomplishment would make this feeling go away.

This, obviously.

[S John]

Triskele, on 30 March 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

Very interesting video.

Without commenting on everything in it, I can say that the notion of doing or acts really hits home for me.  I often feel like a loser with no identity because I haven't accomplished enough, but if you were to compel me to make a list of accomplishments, it wouldn't be that bad at all.  It makes me wonder if any degree of accomplishment would make this feeling go away.

For me?  I don't think so.  Not that I don't feel that I have some good accomplishments, just that I think I'll always feel the drive to be doing something.  Yesterday we were talking about what we'd do if we hit that big lottery jackpot in the states right now.  If I really think about it I wouldn't be able to just not do anything.  I'm definitely not the guy that would show up to work on Monday, but I would have to be out starting businesses 'n stuff or else I'd start to feel like a bit of a p.o.s.

Edited by S John, 30 March 2012 - 12:02 PM.

[peterbound]

S John, on 30 March 2012 - 11:49 AM, said:

I don't remember that thread... wonder if that video ruffled any feathers.

Damn, was that a Facebook argument?  I'm sure i saw that on here.

[S John]

peterbound, on 30 March 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

Damn, was that a Facebook argument?  I'm sure i saw that on here.

Oh I'm sure it probably was here.  I don't read every feminism thread that comes along.  I don't have any formal education in the subject and therefore when people are off citing this person or that person its just a recipe for me to get shit on if I try to participate.  When the feminism sub-topic specifically relates to men though, as this one does, I think my testicles qualify me to speak my mind.

[Winter's Knight]

My understanding is that we need to do away with the labels themselves. As long as one keeps questioning what is it like "to be a man" or "to be a woman",  you're always going to feel like you're falling short. It is instead necessary to figure out what makes you happy as a person independent of gendered titles.

[peterbound]

Winterbreath, on 30 March 2012 - 12:33 PM, said:

My understanding is that we need to do away with the labels themselves. As long as one keeps questioning what is it like "to be a man" or "to be a woman",  you're always going to feel like you're falling short. It is instead necessary to figure out what makes you happy as a person independent of gendered titles.

That would be perfect, ya, but i goes against everything that our make up tells us to do.  We are programmed to label things.  If we didn't say this is 'man' or 'woman' stuff to do, we'd find some other label for it.

[Winter's Knight]

peterbound, on 30 March 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

That would be perfect, ya, but i goes against everything that our make up tells us to do.  We are programmed to label things.  If we didn't say this is 'man' or 'woman' stuff to do, we'd find some other label for it.

But what is considered traditionally male/female varies not just from one country to the otherbut also from decade to decade-if the very nature of masculinity/femininity is so morphable, why not just dispose of the titles completely?

I don't think it is in our make up to label things-why should it be?

Edit: I don't mean to come off as brusque, sorry if my language seems stiff.

Edited by Winterbreath, 30 March 2012 - 12:47 PM.

[Euphail]

Winterbreath, on 30 March 2012 - 12:33 PM, said:

My understanding is that we need to do away with the labels themselves. As long as one keeps questioning what is it like "to be a man" or "to be a woman",  you're always going to feel like you're falling short. It is instead necessary to figure out what makes you happy as a person independent of gendered titles.

I don't disagree, but the nature of our society today is bent on female and male identity. I recently graduated from grad school, and my entire way through university you are asked to identify as male or female. Why? available seats in a program, scholarship availability, slots in available housing, etc etc etc.
Perhaps this illustrates the issue, though I don't see it going away any time soon.

Winterbreath, on 30 March 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

But what is considered traditionally male/female varies not just from one country to the otherbut also from decade to decade-if the very nature of masculinity/femininity is so morphable, why not just dispose of the titles completely?

I don't think it is in our make up to label things-wy should it be?

I would disagree. Labelling comes naturally (at least to me) as a way to quickly process information. I tend to look at people as "people" first, but you still catagorize attributes, are they athletic, smokers, do they eat well, what are they good at, etc etc etc. There are differences to being a man/woman, most societially forced on us, but they denote advantages and disadvantages (generally) based on situations.