37 replies to this topic

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

This is my first time EVER posting in a forum of any kind, and I'm not sure how much this topic has been debated; but this is my view, and I want to know if others agree. (o:

Okay,

I feel certain that Jon Snow is TPTWP, and here is why...assuming that Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark...

According to prophesy, Azor Ahai is to be reborn again as The Prince that was Promised to challenge the Others/White Walkers. This will occur after a long summer (which is about to end now), when an evil, cold darkness descends upon the world (how many times has it been drilled into our heads that winter is coming, and it is going to be BAD!!!) The Prince that was Promised, wielding Lightbringer once again (Longclaw will be the reincarnation of Lightbringer IMO), will stand against the Others (apparently, since he is Lord Commander of The Night's Watch) and if he fails, the world fails with him (nothing happening in The Seven Kingdoms means anything if the Others take over during winter.)

Longclaw is said to be Valyrian steel, and Valyrian Steel is said to be a magical alloy invented in Valyria made special by spells and magic. With the re-occurrence of the dragons, I see many possibilities as far as magic is concerned, and I see the dragons as the key to re-creating Lightbringer.

I also feel that Jon, Dany, and Aegon(son of Rhaegar) are the three heads of the dragon, and they will eventually ride the three dragons. Also, Jon is "The Song Of Ice And Fire" given his parents are Rhaegar(Fire) and Lyanna(Ice).
These are just my opinions…please discuss…

ETA: It's amazing how much my views have changed since joining this forum. I had only read the first book and spoliers at this point.

Edited by Lady Tippy Wolfsbane, 11 June 2012 - 07:26 PM.

[ShadowRaven]

Possibly.

I don't think it's going to be R+L=J though. When has GRRM ever done the obvious?

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

ShadowRaven, on 31 March 2012 - 01:20 AM, said:

Possibly.

I don't think it's going to be R+L=J though. When has GRRM ever done the obvious?

Alas, you do have a point.

[Fire Eater]

Tippy, on 31 March 2012 - 01:05 AM, said:

Also, Jon is "The Song Of Ice And Fire" given his parents are Rhaegar(Fire) and Lyanna(Ice).
These are just my opinions…please discuss…

The problem with Lightbringer being Valyrian steel is that the Long Night and War for Dawn pre-date the invention of Valyrian steel.

Plus, it is widely held that Aegon is the mummer's dragon, or false Targaryen pretender.

Jon, IMHO, is the most likely candidate for Azor Ahai or the PtwP.

Edited by Fire Eater, 31 March 2012 - 01:51 AM.

[Ghost714]

ShadowRaven, on 31 March 2012 - 01:20 AM, said:

Possibly.

I don't think it's going to be R+L=J though. When has GRRM ever done the obvious?

Are you saying R+L=J can't be true because it is so obvious? Or that Jon as the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna would be to obvious as Azor Ahai?
Because neither one is obvious to the average reader. The majority of readers are not as obsessed as the people on these boards, and they have no idea of R+L=J.
About TPTWP/Azor Ahai, the obvious choice is Dany not Jon.

I would just like to clarify that I do believe in R+L=J, and that Jon is Azor Ahai, as well as one of the Heads of the dragon, Dany is another, but Aegon most certainly is not. He is the mummers dragon IMO, and nothing but another Blackfyre pretender.

Edited by Ghost714, 31 March 2012 - 02:43 AM.

[Turkey Jack]

ShadowRaven, on 31 March 2012 - 01:20 AM, said:

Possibly.

I don't think it's going to be R+L=J though. When has GRRM ever done the obvious?

You mean H+L=J

think about it, Lyanna took pity on Reed at Harrenhal roughly 9 months before Jon was born and has his fathers green eyes, Rhaegar sleeping with her soon after mistook the Lyannas bump as his own.  The cranogman somehow saves Ned from Danye not by combat skill surly; but by shouting look Jon has my eyes, giving Ned the split second he needed.

Now to complete this crazy theory all I have to do is work how Lyanna eating frogs still looks 16 and has brow hair.

[Lady Hodor]

@Shadowraven
I agree. After GRRM hears that so many of his readers think Jon is a Targaryen, he will want to do the opposite, to throw us off.
He is awsome that way, as a writer he certainly knows how to keep us on our toes, and how to make us so surprised we lose our breath a little
The Biggest Twist - HODOR IS THE PRINCE THAT WAS PROMISED!

[The Wolfswood]

Lady Hodor, on 31 March 2012 - 03:05 AM, said:

@Shadowraven
I agree. After GRRM hears that so many of his readers think Jon is a Targaryen, he will want to do the opposite, to throw us off.
He is awsome that way, as a writer he certainly knows how to keep us on our toes, and how to make us so surprised we lose our breath a little
The Biggest Twist - HODOR IS THE PRINCE THAT WAS PROMISED!

That would be shoddy writing.  GRRM stays away from forums because he wants to stay true to the story as he originally envisioned.  For every one accurate theory, there are hundreds of inaccurate ones.  Even the ones that have some merit are usually not completely correct.  R + L = J is not an easy conclusion to arrive at.  Most people don't delve in deep to the books.  R + L = J requires an innate understanding of a lot of information to parse correctly: the symbolism of blue roses, the bloody bed, the presence of the KG at the TOJ, the red herrings already in place, the baring the KOTL story has, and many other details.

[Ghost714]

theythg, on 31 March 2012 - 03:15 AM, said:

That would be shoddy writing.  GRRM stays away from forums because he wants to stay true to the story as he originally envisioned.  For every one accurate theory, there are hundreds of inaccurate ones.  Even the ones that have some merit are usually not completely correct.  R + L = J is not an easy conclusion to arrive at.  Most people don't delve in deep to the books.  R + L = J requires an innate understanding of a lot of information to parse correctly: the symbolism of blue roses, the bloody bed, the presence of the KG at the TOJ, the red herrings already in place, the baring the KOTL story has, and many other details.

Exactly, GRRM has said he is against writers who change their original mysteries just because fans guessed it, because then any early clues and foreshadowing becomes completely useless and random. He believes you should stay true to the story no matter what, and to help you do that, he says it's best to stay away from the online forums.

I also agree that the average casual reader has no clue about R+L=J. It took me three times reading the books, until I figured it out. Not one of the 8 people I know that has read the books, knew about R+L=J, without me pointing out all the important indicators. The casual reader can hardly tell you the Seven Great Houses, or the Seven faces of god(in reference to the Faith of the Seven), or the names of the six Direwolves, let alone anything about R+L=J.

[PatrickStormborn]

Tippy, on 31 March 2012 - 01:05 AM, said:

According to prophesy, Azor Ahai is to be reborn again as The Prince that was Promised to challenge the Others/White Walkers.

This isn't exactly true. The legendary figure of Azor Ahai will be "reborn" as someone, and this person will be Azor Ahai Come Again. We don't know if their role is to fight the Others/White Walkers. We also don't know for sure that the two figures (AA and TPWWP) are the same.

Quote

This will occur after a long summer (which is about to end now), when an evil, cold darkness descends upon the world (how many times has it been drilled into our heads that winter is coming, and it is going to be BAD!!!)

The long summer ended in A Game of Thrones. Winter has arrived by the end of ADWD, but the summer ended quite a while before that.

I think overall your ideas are good and they will probably be right, but for many reasons I think Dany is a more likely candidate (although it's apparently quite an unpopular opinion on this forum).

ETA: Personally I have to agree with those who say R+L=J is obvious. I guessed it on my first read of AGOT -- but it took me much longer to work out that Dany may be the Prince Who Was Promised, with Lightbringer being her dragons. Everyone picks up different things while reading.

Edited by PatrickStormborn, 31 March 2012 - 06:00 AM.

[protar]

I wouldn't say R+L=J is obvious at all. We just assume it is because we've been over it so many times. Most readers probably won't pick it up, I certainly didn't before I started browsing these forums.  And Martin has said that he won't change parts of his story just because lots of people got it right.

[Ghost714]

PatrickStormborn, on 31 March 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

This isn't exactly true. The legendary figure of Azor Ahai will be "reborn" as someone, and this person will be Azor Ahai Come Again. We don't know if their role is to fight the Others/White Walkers. We also don't know for sure that the two figures (AA and TPWWP) are the same.



The long summer ended in A Game of Thrones. Winter has arrived by the end of ADWD, but the summer ended quite a while before that.

I think overall your ideas are good and they will probably be right, but for many reasons I think Dany is a more likely candidate (although it's apparently quite an unpopular opinion on this forum).

ETA: Personally I have to agree with those who say R+L=J is obvious. I guessed it on my first read of AGOT -- but it took me much longer to work out that Dany may be the Prince Who Was Promised, with Lightbringer being her dragons. Everyone picks up different things while reading.

Maester Aemon even thinks Dany is The Prince(es) that was Promised, So I think it would be easier for most readers to come to the conclusion of Dany being TPtwP, opposed to readers figuring out R+L=J. The whole waking dragons from stone is a very literal and obvious nod towards Dany also.

[PatrickStormborn]

Ghost714, on 31 March 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

Maester Aemon even thinks Dany is The Prince(es) that was Promised, So I think it would be easier for most readers to come to the conclusion of Dany being TPtwP, opposed to readers figuring out R+L=J. The whole waking dragons from stone is a very literal and obvious nod towards Dany also.

I meant prior to AFFC. But, even after Maester Aemon's reveal, I don't think it's obvious that the dragons are Lightbringer.

[Ghost714]

PatrickStormborn, on 31 March 2012 - 06:37 AM, said:

I meant prior to AFFC. But, even after Maester Aemon's reveal, I don't think it's obvious that the dragons are Lightbringer.

Who said the dragons are for sure Lightbringer?

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Fire Eater, on 31 March 2012 - 01:48 AM, said:

The problem with Lightbringer being Valyrian steel is that the Long Night and War for Dawn pre-date the invention of Valyrian steel.

Plus, it is widely held that Aegon is the mummer's dragon, or false Targaryen pretender.

Jon, IMHO, is the most likely candidate for Azor Ahai or the PtwP.

This very fact is the reason why I suspect that the re-incarnation of Lightbringer would need to be forged from Valyrian steel. The magic surrounding the steel will give it power IMO, but I could be reaching.

[Dracarya]

I think Daenerys is the most likely candidate for AAR/TPTWP, but I'm not sure I want it to be her. Unfortunately, what I want doesn't matter
You made some good points regarding Jon Snow being AAR, but I'm not clued up enough on the prophecies to give a very good answer - they confuse me, if I'm honest, but I'll give it a go.

It is said that AA forged Lightbringer in order to defeat the Others, so what with them coming again, I think it's relatively safe to assume that that's the role of Azor Ahai Reborn as well. The Wiki says that AA will be reborn as The Prince That Was Promised, so they've got to be the same person, right?

Samwell also read that the Others are vulnerable to dragonsteel - if valyrian steel came after AA, surely it cannot be that. So Lightbringer must be something else - the original Lightbringer was giving it's power by combining Nissa Nissa's soul with the steel, so is it safe to assume that this Lightbringer must involve a similar sacrifice in order for it to work against the Others?

As for Jon, was he 'reborn' when the red comet was around? And actually, after reading AFFC, when Maester Aemon said something like "Rhaegar was convinced it had to be a comet", I'm a little bit dubious that the 'bleeding star' has happened yet. But we shall see.

[Lord Godric]

Fire&Blood, on 31 March 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

I think Daenerys is the most likely candidate for AAR/TPTWP, but I'm not sure I want it to be her. Unfortunately, what I want doesn't matter
You made some good points regarding Jon Snow being AAR, but I'm not clued up enough on the prophecies to give a very good answer - they confuse me, if I'm honest, but I'll give it a go.

I agree, I think it is Dany for many of the same reasons, but I don't want it to be her.

Quote

It is said that AA forged Lightbringer in order to defeat the Others, so what with them coming again, I think it's relatively safe to assume that that's the role of Azor Ahai Reborn as well. The Wiki says that AA will be reborn as The Prince That Was Promised, so they've got to be the same person, right?

Not necessarily.   It is assumed that they are by many (including myself), but it doesn't mean they are one.

The strongest evidence I see for Jon being Azor Ahai is in ADwD when Melisandre keeps asking her flames to show her Azor Ahai, using the name to refer to Stannis, and Jon keeps popping up "instead."  This would suggest Jon is Azor Ahai.

I don't think Martin will ever give us a definite answer as to who is Azor Ahai or who is the Prince that was Promised so I think there will forever be (depending on how the story progresses) a debate.

As to the OP, I don't think the three heads of the Dragon will include Aegon, as I think he is a fake.  I think it will probably be Tyrion or maybe even Bran.

Edited by Lord Godric, 31 March 2012 - 12:45 PM.

[Dracarya]

Lord Godric, on 31 March 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

I agree, I think it is Dany for many of the same reasons, but I don't want it to be her.

Not necessarily.   It is assumed that they are by many (including myself), but it doesn't mean they are one.

The strongest evidence I see for Jon being Azor Ahai is in ADwD when Melisandre keeps asking her flames to show her Azor Ahai, using the name to refer to Stannis, and Jon keeps popping up "instead."  This would suggest Jon is Azor Ahai.

I don't think Martin will ever give us a definite answer as to who is Azor Ahai or who is the Prince that was Promised so I think there will forever be (depending on how the story progresses) a debate.

Well she keeps seeing 'snow', she said, right? I'm rereading ADWD now, too much went on the first time for my brain to cope. So if she just saw snow, and not Jon, she could be misinterpreting it. I always take whatever she says with a pinch of salt, but if she's right then yeah that would be pretty strong evidence for Jon being AAR.

It's so confusing! On the wiki it says they are the same person, but that's never explicitly mentioned in the books IIRC. Maester Aemon and Rhaegar both call Dany and Aegon respectively 'The Prince That Was Promised', not AAR, but Rhaegar also says that Aegon's song will be that of 'ice and fire'. I hope we are eventually told who is what, unless it is stated that all prophecies are rubbish and so we can stop speculating about it.

Quote

As to the OP, I don't think the three heads of the Dragon will include Aegon, as I think he is a fake.  I think it will probably be Tyrion or maybe even Bran.

I agree. Since seeing the theories about Aegon being the 'mummers dragon', I've been looking out for clues on my reread of ADWD, and it's looking increasingly likely that he's fake. I hope it's Tyrion, for many reasons, but also because of the foreshadowing from AGOT.

[ghost the direwolf]

I don 't believe that AAR and TPTWP are one and the same. i believe dany will be one and jon the other. iI thought Stannis was the mummer dragon ( since the last debat regarding the prophesie that we had here), or did i get it wrong? I do not think that Mel and Maester Aemon  both really know for sure that AAR and TPTWP are the same.

i am in the camp that believe that the NW is lightbringer. and jon is AAR but dany evidence are very strong as well.
If AAR turns to be bad them I hope he/she will be Dany.

[Know Face Man]

Jon is AA
Dany is PtwP
Bran is the Last Hero

Fire Eater, on 31 March 2012 - 01:48 AM, said:

The problem with Lightbringer being Valyrian steel is that the Long Night and War for Dawn pre-date the invention of Valyrian steel.

Lightbringer isn't Valyrain Steel but I do believe the idea to make Valyrian Steel came from Lightbringer.

Think about this... Lightbringer took Blood Magic and 3 attempts to make it
- Valyrian Steel is made with Blood Magic and Dragon Fire

Blood Magic is the Spells put into the Metal.
Dragon Fire melts the Metal. (Turns Iron into Steel)

The Blood Magic in Lightbringer was Nissa Nissa, but where did AA get the Metal from and how did he Heat the Metal?

I believe Lightbringer is Dawn which would explain how the Metal was heated. Since Dawn was Metal from a fallen star (really hot)

Edited by Know Face Man, 31 March 2012 - 04:29 PM.