397 replies to this topic

[lockesnow]

Craster is making a sacrifice.

[Black Crow]

I have to disagree. If it was a sacrifice in the sense of slaying - as opposed to simply giving up something - then the bit we're all waiting for in episode 2 would be much more specific. Because TV and film relies on visual imagery rather than text its necessary to adapt the story in order to show things and here we're being shown Craster giving his son to a White Walker; not exposing him on a rock or plunging a dagger into him, but giving him.

Which then of course comes straight back to the whole business of the White Walkers (or at least some of them) being Craster's sons and the baby's brothers.

[redriver]

lockesnow, on 04 April 2012 - 01:46 AM, said:

Craster is making a sacrifice.

If your referring to the "willing" sacrifice idea,then it still doesn't make sense to me.
We have to make a distinction between the sacrificer and the sacrificed.The sacrificer is always willing,they choose to make an offering of the sacrificed's life to whatever god in return for whatever favor.
Those that are being sacrificed rarely have a choice in the matter.
If you say Craster's sacrifices are "willing",then you have to say the same about Mel's,Moqorro's and whoever else donates other people's lives to a god.
I reiterate,the sacrificer is always willing no matter which god.For the sacrificed it's not necessarily so,especially in the case of babies.

[redriver]

Black Crow, on 04 April 2012 - 02:02 AM, said:

I have to disagree. If it was a sacrifice in the sense of slaying - as opposed to simply giving up something - then the bit we're all waiting for in episode 2 would be much more specific. Because TV and film relies on visual imagery rather than text its necessary to adapt the story in order to show things and here we're being shown Craster giving his son to a White Walker; not exposing him on a rock or plunging a dagger into him, but giving him.

Which then of course comes straight back to the whole business of the White Walkers (or at least some of them) being Craster's sons and the baby's brothers.

If it was in any doubt that the Others take Craster's sons and turn them into Others,then I think it's been dispelled now.

Though maybe they accept the babies on the basis that they're better off with us than you.

A cold mist of rejected souls.A fearsome force indeed.

Edited by redriver, 04 April 2012 - 02:16 AM.

[jon rr stark]

The Lost Lord, on 03 April 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

I know it's a fool's game to take hints from the TV series, but I just watched Season 2, Episode 2 and:

Spoiler

In a big change from the books, Craster is actually shown giving one of his sons to a White Walker in a dramatic scene at the very end of the episode. This could have been included merely to add some action to Jon's rather spare S2 plotline -- but maybe they're acting on inside info from GRRM that this is very important.

Something to consider. BTW, the showrunners have said that GRRM is "very involved in terms of the big picture stuff because we talk to him a lot about where the series is going, where the books are going, what the ending is going to be because we want to make sure that we're properly building towards that in the hope that we get to go for as many seasons as it would take to tell the story." So I must imagine that they know the true nature of the Others.

Its not that big a change. we already knew he did it but just didnt see it at first hand. Whats of more interest is how the WW is shown. How human do they look. Are Casters sons turning into WW. Are they sacrificed to make a WW. Whatever they are if they need Casters sons might mean they themselves cant reproduce, especially as they are only interested in males.
Babies are fresh life, are they somehow using this new lifeforce to sustain themselves. Maybe something like wraging (whats the the correct term for non wolf wragging) into the babies and hence using their bodies.

[Lummel]

skinchanging.  But warging sounds better.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

The newborn probably isn't willing, but the newborn probably isn't overly self aware, as its a newborn baby....  Craster is quite willing, however.  

Go back to your Bible....  think of Abraham and Isaac....  Isaac's opinion on the matter was irrelevent, it was Abraham preparing to make the sacrifice.


As for the physical make up of the Other, I think the puddle was it's 'flesh', I think the rivulets running down its body was it's soul, the bone-looking-things were its evil intentions, and the mist was its  .. i'm just kidding, I don't know what they're made of.    It seemed to melt entirely in under a minute... sounds like an ice cube on a frying pan to me.

More seriously, I think they're more like animated ice (my not so well received elemental theory)... that's why we can only see them take physical form when it's bitter, bitter cold.... whether they bring the cold or the cold brings them, I cannot say..... What I can say is that they can only solidify in their whitewalker physical form in those environmental circumstances.

[Lykos]

Usually giving up your son is a huge sacrifice, and Craster gives it willingly.
There is nothing usual about this ritual however, and there is the possibility that Craster removes future chalengers to his position, by leaving his sons to his "Gods", as I´ve seen Apple Martini sugest in another thread.

I like the idea that a sacrifice has to be given willingly.  I think most (unwilling)sacrifices we´ve seen so far were made in order to distract, provoke or make people believe that great magic is worked, when it´s actually just visions comming true.


ETA:

Apple Martini, on 14 October 2011 - 04:26 PM, said:

<snip>

Edited by Lykos, 04 April 2012 - 07:49 AM.

[Frey Pie]

A baby will never be a willing sacrifice.They have no will but possibly one to survive and eat.Whats to say that the WWs use them as babies?If theyre allowed to grow up among the WWs they may be groomed as willing sacrifices-theyll know no other way.Its been stated however that the Others do not have a culture.Bit perhaps its Crasters grown sons who give themsleves willingly over to the Others that increases their number?Or perhaps a type of mating in the sense of the NK and his white woman.Or even possibly the White Woman?The WWs then being reanimated corpses being controlled by the Others

[unRobert]

Coupling that scene with Gilly's line in the books about the boy's brothers coming for him, I think it's pretty clear that others are transformed humans.

Spoiler

And the others do look pretty human in this new scene, especially as they walk away. The baby was crying, then seemed to stop when the other picked it up.

I think that opens up the questions: Why Craster? Does he have special blood? Only Craster? Or are others making sacrifices as well?

[lockesnow]

unRobert, on 04 April 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

Coupling that scene with Gilly's line in the books about the boy's brothers coming for him, I think it's pretty clear that others are transformed humans.

Spoiler

And the others do look pretty human in this new scene, especially as they walk away. The baby was crying, then seemed to stop when the other picked it up.

I think that opens up the questions: Why Craster? Does he have special blood? Only Craster? Or are others making sacrifices as well?

If Craster is Bloodraven's son or grandson he has special blood.  If Craster is a Stark's son or grandson (did Rickard Stark have any brothers that joined the watch?) he has special blood.  I personally think the showrunners deliberately designed Craster's look to be similar to Jeor Mormont's look, so there is also a possibility, imo, that he is Mormont's half brother (as silly as that sounds, there's as much evidence for that as any of the above two options, which is to say, there is no evidence)--and the Mormont's almost certainly have the blood of of first men.   Speaking of Craster familial relations, I'm inclined to believe that Mance is one of Craster's sons that got away (like Gilly), which if Craster is a Stark or Targaryen bloodline makes Mance of that bloodline.

There is more evidence that Craster's blood is special not because he's a secret prince (*vomits*) but because his Blood is Black.  He's the child of a Night's Watch--that may be of far more mystical significance than being a Secret Prince (*vomits*).  I'm inclined to believe there's a second reason for the "Father no children" line in the vows other than the obvious 'divided loyalty' explanation.  And the second reason would go with the second reason for the 'take no wife" and 'wear no crown' second reason (all the primary reasons for these vow conditions are simply to eliminate divided loyalties)--preventing a recurrance of the Night King, if wives and crowns led to the Night King perhaps children were also involved, the lines of the vow are all collected together after all.

And as someone else mentioned above, the importance of Craster's sacrifice has nothing to really do with the agency of the lamb, it has everything to do with the man making the sacrifice.  The similar story is Abraham and Issac, as mentioned above, or AzorAhai and Nissa Nissa.  The importance is the devotion/commitment of the person making the sacrifice.

And think of what Arya learns in the faceless men temple.  a Sacrifice must be HARD, the price is high and very painful to pay, giving up sons is not easy.  We have no reason to think that it is easy for Craster to give up his sons.

In other words, a sacrifice must involve some sacrifice, right?  You have to have some Skin in the game, eh?

Edited by lockesnow, 04 April 2012 - 11:09 AM.

[Black Crow]

Fire Eater, on 03 April 2012 - 11:25 PM, said:

Not to sound snarky, but then what was the cold puddle it left behind after it melted like the Wicked Witch of the West, did he sh!t himself?

I agree that the Others may take on their humanoid form at will, otherwise they are in a mist form, which could be their primary form. The mist freezes into ice when they choose to take solid form, when they become mist again their armor, swords and bodies evaporate.

The Ice Dragon of course melted into a pool of very cold water, but yes there could well be a distinction between the Walkers becoming mist and leaving their armour and weapons behind as a cold puddle. I still have this image of the White Walker slain by Sam reforming himself amidst a succession of expletives and vowing no more Mr Nice guy next time he meets that fat kid with the dagger

ETA spelling

Edited by Black Crow, 04 April 2012 - 11:16 AM.

[Jojen]

Sword Of Mid Afternoon, on 04 April 2012 - 07:17 AM, said:

The newborn probably isn't willing, but the newborn probably isn't overly self aware, as its a newborn baby....  Craster is quite willing, however.

You may have hit on something there. According to Aristotle (if I understand his Metaphysics correctly), everything has either potentiality or actuality. A newborn (human) child would have the capability, or possibility, for instance, of becoming a peasant, a maester, a knight, or a shadowbinder. They do not yet possess actuality, for they haven't yet realized their innate potential. Of course, in most cases, the circumstance of their birth tend to limit their potential. It's unlikely that a Dothraki will become a maester, yet it still has the potential to become one.

Furthermore, there are Four Causes that could determine actualization, or the fulfillment of potential: (1) the Material Cause, which is what a thing is made of (eg, wood or iron); (2) the Formal Cause, which is how those materials are arranged (a chair or a sword); (3) the Efficient Cause, which is what or how it moves from the first cause to the second (ie, how a piece of wood becomes a chair or how a lump of iron becomes a sword); and the Final Cause, which is the thing's purpose (eg, for sitting or for killing).

Additionally, the ancient Greeks believed that everything was made up of Five Elements: Earth, Air, Fire, Water, and Aether. Earth is cold, dry, and solid. Air is hot, wet, and gaseous. Fire is hot and dry, and is basically the same as heat. Water is cold, wet, and liquid. These four elements are mutable or changeable. Aether, as the substance of the heavenly spheres and the air that the gods breathe, is unchangeable and has no such qualities as heat, dryness, solidity, etc. (Oddly, the word is related to the Greek verb "to burn," so it would seem to be related to fire.)

The material cause of a human being (and perhaps the Children as well) would seem to be a combination of solid and gas, wet and dry, and heat (our bodies are warm, dry, and solid, our blood is hot and wet, we breathe warm air...and if we have a soul, it would be composed of aether, as everything else changes, but the soul is eternal--if there are such things as souls in GRRM's world.

The material cause of a WW would also seem to be a combination of solid and gas, wet and dry, but lacking in heat. The introduction of heat may be the cause that actualizes their potential to be...well, something else, such as mist.

On a related note, dragons are made up of the elements of earth and fire. Perhaps those two elements contain the potential to become dragons, or dragonglass. (It also just occurred to me that Faceless Men would seem to have more potential than any other person, but that is a departure from the Aristotelian concept of potentiality and a subject for another thread.)

So--a child is not yet self-aware. Their identity, the actualization of their potential, has not yet been determined. Because of this, only they may have the potential to become a WW. For an adult, who has achieved their potential and fulfilled their purpose, no matter how willing or voluntary their personal sacrifice may be, it's too late. Unless they happen to be a warg...?

[alienarea]

Jojen, on 04 April 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

You may have hit on something there. According to Aristotle (if I understand his Metaphysics correctly), everything has either potentiality or actuality. A newborn (human) child would have the capability, or possibility, for instance, of becoming a peasant, a maester, a knight, or a shadowbinder. They do not yet possess actuality, for they haven't yet realized their innate potential. Of course, in most cases, the circumstance of their birth tend to limit their potential. It's unlikely that a Dothraki will become a maester, yet it still has the potential to become one.

Furthermore, there are Four Causes that could determine actualization, or the fulfillment of potential: (1) the Material Cause, which is what a thing is made of (eg, wood or iron); (2) the Formal Cause, which is how those materials are arranged (a chair or a sword); (3) the Efficient Cause, which is what or how it moves from the first cause to the second (ie, how a piece of wood becomes a chair or how a lump of iron becomes a sword); and the Final Cause, which is the thing's purpose (eg, for sitting or for killing).

Additionally, the ancient Greeks believed that everything was made up of Five Elements: Earth, Air, Fire, Water, and Aether. Earth is cold, dry, and solid. Air is hot, wet, and gaseous. Fire is hot and dry, and is basically the same as heat. Water is cold, wet, and liquid. These four elements are mutable or changeable. Aether, as the substance of the heavenly spheres and the air that the gods breathe, is unchangeable and has no such qualities as heat, dryness, solidity, etc. (Oddly, the word is related to the Greek verb "to burn," so it would seem to be related to fire.)

The material cause of a human being (and perhaps the Children as well) would seem to be a combination of solid and gas, wet and dry, and heat (our bodies are warm, dry, and solid, our blood is hot and wet, we breathe warm air...and if we have a soul, it would be composed of aether, as everything else changes, but the soul is eternal--if there are such things as souls in GRRM's world.

The material cause of a WW would also seem to be a combination of solid and gas, wet and dry, but lacking in heat. The introduction of heat may be the cause that actualizes their potential to be...well, something else, such as mist.

On a related note, dragons are made up of the elements of earth and fire. Perhaps those two elements contain the potential to become dragons, or dragonglass. (It also just occurred to me that Faceless Men would seem to have more potential than any other person, but that is a departure from the Aristotelian concept of potentiality and a subject for another thread.)

So--a child is not yet self-aware. Their identity, the actualization of their potential, has not yet been determined. Because of this, only they may have the potential to become a WW. For an adult, who has achieved their potential and fulfilled their purpose, no matter how willing or voluntary their personal sacrifice may be, it's too late. Unless they happen to be a warg...?

Getting back to your last sentence: the ADwD prologue ends with Varamyr being stuck in his wolf One Eye, seeing the wildling girl Thistle who has been killed and raised as a wight. The chapter ends with Varamyr saying She sees me.

Either the Thistle wight can see Varamyr in One Eye because he tried to take over her body before his body died or wights can see wargs.

It seems more plausible to me that wights can see wargs in general because wights don't have their own eyes anymore but the blue wight eyes.

This indicates a connection between WWs and wargs.

[lockesnow]

Jojen, on 04 April 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

Furthermore, there are Four Causes that could determine actualization, or the fulfillment of potential: (1) the Material Cause, which is what a thing is made of (eg, wood or iron); (2) the Formal Cause, which is how those materials are arranged (a chair or a sword); (3) the Efficient Cause, which is what or how it moves from the first cause to the second (ie, how a piece of wood becomes a chair or how a lump of iron becomes a sword); and the Final Cause, which is the thing's purpose (eg, for sitting or for killing).

I knew this thread would eventually take a turn towards becoming more like a Bakker thread.

I think White Walkers are like Shadow Babies, and we don't yet know what the North of the Wall equivalent of Melisandre is.

[Jojen]

lockesnow, on 04 April 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:

I knew this thread would eventually take a turn towards becoming more like a Bakker thread.

Sorry, wasn't my intention!

If Craster is related to the Starks, he may possibly have some warg-blood in him, or at least the potential to be one. Maybe for the WW to perpetuate, there must always be a Caster north of the Wall. That's not to suggest that, as all Craster's sons are WW, all WW are Craster's sons, only that at the moment he may be the source.

Also, Caster's daughters are referred to as his "wives," but I'm wondering if he ever truly married them. He seems to follow the Old Ways, so maybe there is some kind of ceremony that he follows to make it official in the eyes of the Old Gods. If not, then his sons are all bastards. There's that theme again....

[Lummel]

alienarea, on 04 April 2012 - 12:04 PM, said:

... The chapter ends with Varamyr saying She sees me.

Either the Thistle wight can see Varamyr in One Eye because he tried to take over her body before his body died or wights can see wargs...

Or Wights can see wolves, which seems reasonable too.  The 'me' in that context is a wolf as well as a(n ex-)warg.

[alienarea]

Lummel, on 04 April 2012 - 02:22 PM, said:

Or Wights can see wolves, which seems reasonable too.  The 'me' in that context is a wolf as well as a(n ex-)warg.

Agree, but did we ever question that wights could se wolves? Question would be ifthe Thistle wight sees all wolves of the pack or just One Eye because Varamyr is inside? Of course that isn't answered in the prologue.

[Bran Vras]

I have compiled a list of questions about Craster. Since it seems to be subject of the moment, and it is relevant to the Heresy, I am going to post it here. (I limited myself to ten questions.)

1) Who was Craster's father?

We know that he was a brother of the Night's Watch. I suspect he was highborn, since Craster likes to be called my lord (Mormont grants him that). Mormont brings him a precious axe, inlaid with gold, as a gift. It might be Mormont personal axe. If it is not, it could be that Mormont brought to Craster his fathers' weapon.

In ACoK, the Cerwyns play a role in Harrenhal and in Winterfell. Their sigil is a black axe, and, curiously, they don't have an axe as a family heirloom. So perhaps Craster's father was a Cerwyn and the axe is the Cerwyn ancestral axe.

2) Who was Craster's mother?

Craster has a flat nose, a droopy mouth, close-set eyes. Few people in the Seven Kingdoms have these features. But some wildling do, notably Borroq and Thistle, so i guess they came from his mother.

Why did Craster's mother come to the Wall to ask the father recognition for her baby? No wildling ever come to the Wall to ask for anything. Was she a woodwitch (see connection with Ramsay).

3) What about Whitetree?

Craster's mother was from Whitetree. So it is probably the place where he grew up. Whitetree is one of the few landmarks beyond the Wall. It figures on Sam's old maps. The largest weirwood we have seen, and perhaps the oldest, is there and people there burn corpses inside the tree. We haven't seen that anywhere else.

4) What about the ring and the missing ear?

Craster wears a golden ring on one arm. Varamyr had two golden rings, that Mance gave him. When we see Mance, Jon points out that he doesn't wear any golden ring. Tormund has two golden armbands (family heirloom). What is the significance of golden ornaments on arms?

We see also a lot missing ears north of the Wall. I am not sure frostbyte are entirely to blame. The chief of the Thenns has lost both ears (number of ears=numbers of gold rings for Craster, Tormund, Varamyr, the Magnar).

5) The longhall

Craster lives in a longhall, not in a stone hovel like many wildlings do. Varamyr lived in a longhall too,  like Haggon before him, and villagers around paid him homage. Did Craster expect to be treated like a lord?

6) Craster and warging

That Varamy lived in a longhall seemed to have been a privilege of the warg. Are we sure that Craster is not a warg? An "interesting" development would be that that Craster is a warg and, in his agony on the floor of his keep, he warged Gilly's son as she was fleeing the keep in ASoS, and is now enjoying his second life as a "prince".

(In the show Craster hated Jon on sight, as if he recognized a warg.)

7) Why is Craster familiar with the Starks?

Craster recognizes immediately that Jon is a Stark. He says: "Has the look of a Stark". It means that Craster has seen at least two Starks before: Benjen Stark and who else ?

Craster himself does not have the look of a Stark.

8) The bear and the ram

What is the significance of the bear's head and the ram's head on poles at the entrance of the keep? Did Craster put a bear a the entrance to warn Lord Mormont, since the bear seems to have been killed recently? Does he signal his hate for wargs? Or do these animals act as protectors? How did Craster kill a bear?

9) Black sausages

I guess the black sausages of Craster are blood sausages. It seems that not all wildlings eat pork. Notably Val carries as provision all kinds of meat, and fish as well, with her she leaves the Wall, but no pork. Some other wildlings seem to belong to a pig culture: Borroq, Harma and Craster. Craster got rid of his pigs only after he had no sheep to give anymore, signaling thus his preferences.  

10) Connection with Ramsay and Reek

In the Roose Bolton thread, we have noted the similarities between Craster and Ramsay. The obsession with bastardy, the cruelty (both are very willing to kill the wounded, both have the strange idea of cutting tongues and pinning them on the wall). It seems that the first Reek had the same manner of speaking than Ramsay, so I that I tend to  think that Reek is a wildling from the same area than Craster (Whitetree).

Moreover, Ramsay's story is similar to Craster's story. He was born from rape and his mother came to his father to demand recognition of the child. And she did so against all common sense. Hence he has black blood etc.

Edited by Bran Vras, 04 April 2012 - 05:40 PM.

[Lummel]

A little digression - the bodies at Whitetree are almost certainly not burnt inside the tree unless the trunk is extremely large or asbestos lined.  Burning something inside a tree is liable to kill the tree which would be odd behaviour for tree worshipping/respecting people.  More likely the bodies are burnt elsewhere and the ashes and any bony remains deposited inside the tree once they had cooled.

Slightly more Crasterish...since Craster was denied by his father and brought up amongst his Mother's people then we can presume that his notions of Godliness come from her too.   In which case we could be looking at a cult or a tradition of honouring the gods in Craster's style associated with some of the Wildlings.

Edited by Lummel, 04 April 2012 - 03:58 PM.