397 replies to this topic

[CloudFlare]

On #7:

Maybe Craster has lived an extraordinarily long time. If so, he could have seen generations of Starks come and go as Black Brothers. Mormont might have indicated this to Jon Stark as well, I think he says something like 'Craster has been a friend of the Watch for a long time'.

[Black Crow]

Does raise the question as to why he was a friend to the Watch?

If his mother came knocking to give him or at least show him to his father and the Watch chased her off, wouldn't that incline him against them? They swear to bear no children, which obviously isn't literally true, but they're obviously not allowed to raise children. So did his father turn up again later and if so does that suggest he was high enough up in the Watch to get away with having a "wife" in Whitetree.

There are other questions too but its my bedtime so good night all and I'll see where we are in the morning - 3 pages in 24 hours has been a bit hectic even by the usual standards of this thread.

[Bran Vras]

Lummel, on 04 April 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

A little digression - the bodies at Whitetree are almost certainly not burnt inside the tree unless the trunk is extremely large or asbestos lined.  Burning something inside a tree is liable to kill the tree which would be odd behaviour for tree worshipping/respecting people.  More likely the bodies are burnt elsewhere and the ashes and any bony remains deposited inside the tree once they had cooled.

The trunk is extremely large: 8 feet of diameter. Here is the passage

Quote

He knelt and reached a gloved hand down into the maw. The inside of the hollow was red with dried sap and blackened by fire. Beneath the skull he saw another, smaller, the jaw broken off. It was half-buried in ash and bits of bone.

So it seems that the burning occurred inside the weirwood. Since the tree is very large, it might be very old, and keep traces of older practices. Alternately it might not be that old, but the vigour of the tree is due to the human bodies burnt inside.

Lummel, on 04 April 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

Slightly more Crasterish...since Craster was denied by his father and brought up amongst his Mother's people then we can presume that his notions of Godliness come from her too.   In which case we could be looking at a cult or a tradition of honouring the gods in Craster's style associated with some of the Wildlings.

I tend to agree about the notion of different wildling traditions coexisting beyond the wall, and that Craster might have continued existing practices.

But, I would rather think that Craster departed from the tradition of his own village, Whitetree, where there is no longhall, there are no pigs. That seems to indicate a cultural break. Moreover, Ygritte seemed familiar with Whitetree. Hence we can imagine that residents of Whitetree were not that different from Ygritte. But Ygritte considered Craster as a freak. So, I don't think Craster was representative of his village.

[unBloodraven]

@Blackcrow ur right about that. I was away for a week and I missed a whole thread!

@lockesnow in regards to your post on the first page about Mel and Davos's boat ride under Storms End. It would make sense that she would fear water because water kills fire and hides light, which would effectivly vanquish R'hllor. Although Morrquo was saved out of the sea by Victorion's fleet on his way to Dany so.... (that's the only contridictory event I can think of invovling a red priest)

As far as Ep 2 goes it's available on HBO Go if you are a subscriber to that service. I saw it and there are alot of devations from the "canon" book story line. Do we have a thread policy on talking about the show here before it airs for everyone?

[Jojen]

These bastards keep popping up....In ASOS, Jon recalls something Benjen told him about previous Lord Commanders--that among the "cowards and fools...our tyrants and our madmen," there was a  Runcel Hightower, who "forgot" his vows and tried to hand over the NW to his bastard son.

I tried to find more on this, but apparently that's all the info there is. The list of Lord Commanders on the Ice & Fire Wiki does list him after the Night's King, but without dates, it's practically impossible to say when he served. Still, I suppose it's possible that he knew the NK and was perhaps influenced by him. Do we know who the LC was after NK?

I'd like to know who the bastard was, what happened to him, and who his mother had been. I'm going to guess it was a Wildling, but I think Benjen would have mentioned that, so that's probably not likely.

Edited by Jojen, 04 April 2012 - 09:39 PM.

[The Lost Lord]

Just throwing this out there, re: Craster... It strikes most of us heretics as very odd that the Others vanish from the story 1/3 of the way through ASOS, right? We have the major wight attack on the Watch, and we have Samwell killing the Other, and then... nothing (save for a few stray wights pestering Bran and Sam a bit). Considering that Martin intended a "5 year gap" after ASOS, that means that the Others were supposed to do nothing in particular for quite some time. There must be a reason, so why?

I know Black Crow has put forth the idea that the Fist attack was merely intended to clear the way for Mance's host. Various people have also proposed that Sam's killing of the Other put the fear of god into them and they decided to regroup. But what else happened 1/3 of the way through ASOS? Craster was killed. Maybe Craster's death and the cutoff of the new supply of living boys seriously screwed up their plans somehow, leading to a postponement.

[Lummel]

Last night as I was about to set off on my journey to the land of Nod (translation = go to sleep) I had another Craster thought.  Once Craster is dead some of the Daughter-Wives tell Sam and Gilly to go because his sons are coming.

How do the sons how that their daddy is dead?  (And why do they care?) Are they using the weirnet to watch Craster's longhall and so understand that something has gone wrong from what they can see?  Or is there a subtler connection between the sons and their father?  Are the sons going to Craster's simply to avenge their father or does his death mean that an agreement has been broken?

Craster is a friend to the watch presumably because he is relatively cut off from Wildling society which might be because he is the bastard son of a crow or might be because of his religious and family practises.

I'd say the significance of the longhall is that it is the sign of a chief, or a big man among the Wildlings.  The question then is what is the basis of his authority - not his deeds like Tormund or his skills like Varamyr - but possibly his connection to the gods?

[Black Crow]

The Lost Lord, on 04 April 2012 - 10:56 PM, said:

Just throwing this out there, re: Craster... It strikes most of us heretics as very odd that the Others vanish from the story 1/3 of the way through ASOS, right? We have the major wight attack on the Watch, and we have Samwell killing the Other, and then... nothing (save for a few stray wights pestering Bran and Sam a bit). Considering that Martin intended a "5 year gap" after ASOS, that means that the Others were supposed to do nothing in particular for quite some time. There must be a reason, so why?

I know Black Crow has put forth the idea that the Fist attack was merely intended to clear the way for Mance's host. Various people have also proposed that Sam's killing of the Other put the fear of god into them and they decided to regroup. But what else happened 1/3 of the way through ASOS? Craster was killed. Maybe Craster's death and the cutoff of the new supply of living boys seriously screwed up their plans somehow, leading to a postponement.

I've never seen the suggestion that Sam's slaying of that White Walker in the flight from the fist gave the rest of them the screaming ab dabs. Hey, he's one guy. Casualties are to be expected... unless those six (?) White Walkers we saw in the AGoT prologue are the same ones seen near Eastwatch and they, Craster's sons, are the only White Walkers?

I'm not proposing this as a serious theory, but its the only way losing just one of their number would daunt them. I think that the real reason we haven't seen much of them since then, and the presumed dust-up at Craster's place (if Craster's a warg he might well have summoned them himself) comes back to the popular notion on this thread that they are themselves rangers, rather than invading army.

[Black Crow]

unBloodraven, on 04 April 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

As far as Ep 2 goes it's available on HBO Go if you are a subscriber to that service. I saw it and there are alot of devations from the "canon" book story line. Do we have a thread policy on talking about the show here before it airs for everyone?

So far as I'm concerned we're talking about the books which have been written rather than those which have yet to be published. What goes down in the shows is therefore more in the nature of an SSM allowing us insights, rather than spoilers of what's to come.

I've only seen 2:1 myself, but from what I did see and what's being said about 2:2 it sounds as though a lot of stuff is being brought forward rather than invented in order to cut out scenes but yet retain the important stuff.

Given what is being revealed, both through that recent GRRM interview which speaks of what's beyond the Wall and what's he's been saying about the Others, and this confirmation that Craster instead of exposing his sons to die or actually killing them himself, really is giving them to the White Walkers and that the women probably are right about them being his sons, I'm getting the strong impression that we're on the right track and are not preaching heresy at all but the revealed truth.

[Lykos]

@Jojen
While I´m shure that GRRM isn´t keeping the role of the bad guys for the bastards (Duncan the Tall is definitely good), I´m glad you bring up the LCs of the NW, Benjen tells Jon about.
There was Tristan Mudd one of the worst LCs the NW ever had.

I have a highly speculative theory on Tristifer IV Mudd, Catelyn tells Robb about him when they camp at Oldstones on their way to the RW.
He was known as the Hammer of Justice and he ruled from the Trident to the Neck.  He held back the Andals who came through the Vale, he won a 99 battles and lost the 100th.

I think House Mudd might have had a similar connection to the CotF, that we think the Starks have.  I think they were in charge of keeping the pact between the CotF and the FM, and when they failed, were replaced by the Starks and the Green Men were replaced by the NW.  There are some timeline problems to this idea,  but it would present us with another possible forbear of Craster with a connection to the Children.

Maybe Tristan Mudd was vilified as the Night´s King was and was in fact fulfilling a purpose for the Children/Others.

[Elaena Targaryen]

I don't know if I can't remember or if we just don't know yet; but what happened to Craster's daughter wives and where are they?

On Craster's sons I do wonder where the WW take them, or where they keep them? It depends on what they actually do with the babies but I'm interested in what all of you think. (It seems like we all have more questions now lol.) I do not think they kill the babies for some sacrificial ritual because I tend to think the WW are Craster's sons, but how / where does this happen? As an aside the red priests were all children (that we know of, Thoros, Mel) when they became Lord of Light fanatics.

I also have been thinking about us seeing the Land of Always Winter and how Martin said something like we would see what's more north in a recent interview. At first I wondered if maybe Benjen might come back, and he was there, so he tells whoever about it and that's how we would know what going on. I've read some of his interviews where people ask if we'll see places in Essos, like Asshai or Valyria, and he said we might see it through memories but not actually go there. (old interviews so who knows now) I liked some of the ideas like Bran via weiwood or warging seeing what's there but I have a new idea. (new idea for me with this) A prologue or an epilogue, one of these has exciting potential don't ya think? Martin said we would see this in TWOW right?

[Lykos]

I have another, even wilder theory, triggered by the idea of a connection of the Undying and the Children (which I don´t see (yet?)).

Children having been an indigenous race in Essos is to us, Howl at the Moon followers, an old hat, of course.  But I wondered about the Stormsingers and that even they were unable to avert the Doom of Valyria , as Dany mentions in AGoT.
Maybe we´ll find at the root of the Rh´llor cult of Asshai another culture of Children.
It would make more sense to me than introducing a yet unknown magical group,  and I somehow don´t see humans having this power.  The Asshai faction of the Children would be the Prometheus of the people of "Globos" and I´m curious if we´ll find a Pandora.

*****
Concerning the question where Craster´s sons are taken to.  I always thought, that in order to be transformed they must have been taken to the Children and that it would be a slow process that takes place while they grow up.  But the description of a WW taking a baby makes me wonder if that is true.  And the baby falling silent either means the WWs are capable to take care of babies, or the life force is taken instantly, at least that´s what I think.

[butterbumps!]

Sorry to regress, I wanted to go back to the previous points about "Mists:" do the cold mists rise because of the Others, do the Others come because of the mists, are the mists "souls," etc.

Sorry if this was discussed anywhere before (I tried to check through the Heresies), but it occurred to me that we see another strange mist (and possible NK analogue) having no immediate relation to the North, in the Sorrows (from DWD, Tyrion).  I'll try to outline the points I think are most pertinent:

Tyrion can see "stone hands and faces" (dead things in the water) as they continue down the river, and thinks "This fog is not natural.  Something foul grew in the waters here, and festered in the air.  Small wonder the stone men go mad."   Halfmaester tells us "Hatred does not stir the stone men half so much as hunger."  

Tyrion thinks about greyscale, going over the medical symptoms, blaming the cause on foul humours.  His companions tell us the story of Garin's curse, and how "he called upon his Mother to destroy [the men of Volantis and Valyria].  But in the night the waters rose and drowned them, and from that day they have not rested...they who were once the lords of fire.  Their cold breath rises from the murk to make fogs, and their flesh has turned stony as their hearts."

Could the condition of WW be something akin to a curse?   Do the mists possibly "ensorcel" men in the north similarly as on the Rhoyne?   I'm not sure what to make of this, just that I see some very possible analogues (sending water to flood, losing your humanity to stone/ ice, etc).

Regarding a possible NK parallel (I think this has been mentioned, but wanted to revisit it):

Quote

"The Shrouded Lord has ruled these mists since Garin's day," said Yandry.  "Some say that he himself is Garin, risen from his watery grave..."  [The Halmaester disputes this] ..... "Aye, I've heard that tale too," said Duck, "but there's another tale I like better.  The one that says he's not like t'other stone men, that he started as a statue till a grey woman came out of the fog and kissed him with lips cold as ice.

I realize that the NK doesn't have the pygmalion component, but they both seem to involve "deadish" women with certain magical powers (and cold lips) that bring about some miracle to the men they love. At any rate, I've been trying to see if some of the non-North clues could shed insight on what's going on with Winter, and I feel like the Sorrows might be important to that end.

[Lykos]

@Butterbumps!
Yes, I think these parallels are important, in the Queenmaker AFfC we learn some Rhoynish history, prince Garin the Great (the Shrouded Lord) had a quarter of a million menand made Valyria tremble, but was killed eventually.  I have to reread that, but since I see the Valyrians as instruments of Rh´llor, I think it very possible that the Shrouded Lord and Greyscale is another line of defense.

Edit for corrections.

Edited by Lykos, 05 April 2012 - 11:12 AM.

[Black Crow]

butterbumps!, on 05 April 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

I realize that the NK doesn't have the pygmalion component, but they both seem to involve "deadish" women with certain magical powers (and cold lips) that bring about some miracle to the men they love. At any rate, I've been trying to see if some of the non-North clues could shed insight on what's going on with Winter, and I feel like the Sorrows might be important to that end.

A possibility worth bearing in mind of course is that all these stories (and others) have a common root with each different culture attaching its own names and variations. As I recall GRRM did say something about strewing the books with impossible references to the deeds of Bran the Builder and Lan the Clever simply in order to create a convincing background mythology (which I'd take as a warning against believing that Bran the Builder really knocked up both the Wall and Storm's End) and another example is having Giants build the Wall just as they were once thought to have built Stoke Penge.

Now as it happens I don't think that Bran Stark the Nights King and Garin the Shrouded Lord are one and the same, or that they both knew the same White Lady, but I do think that a very similar mythology may have attached itself to both.

[Black Crow]

Elaena Targaryen, on 05 April 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:

I don't know if I can't remember or if we just don't know yet; but what happened to Craster's daughter wives and where are they?

Last seen telling Sam and Gilly to get out of town fast because their brothers and sons were coming. I dare say they then sold tickets for what was about to go down.

[Black Crow]

Jojen, on 04 April 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

These bastards keep popping up....In ASOS, Jon recalls something Benjen told him about previous Lord Commanders--that among the "cowards and fools...our tyrants and our madmen," there was a  Runcel Hightower, who "forgot" his vows and tried to hand over the NW to his bastard son.

Not exactly the high-minded warrior monks we're led to believe. Mormont complains that the Watch isn't what it used to be, but that's a common complaint of any commander. I think the Watch we see now is just the same old Watch as ever was, unless of course the original Andal lot who ended the Night were hot stuff literally and metaphorically. They're not exactly now an elite force and I doubt they ever were and I think that's reflected in Osha's comment about Mance thinking he could fight the White Walkers because he thought they were no more than rangers. Thisc can be taken two ways and not incompatable ways either. Referring to them as rangers is certainly consistent with what we've actually seen of them, but it also suggests that Mance was pretty confident that if his people stood and fought instead of running they were capable of defeating the Watch. That's not to say he would have been successful, but he certainly wasn't quaking in his boots at the thought of fighting them

[butterbumps!]

Black Crow, on 05 April 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

A possibility worth bearing in mind of course is that all these stories (and others) have a common root with each different culture attaching its own names and variations. As I recall GRRM did say something about strewing the books with impossible references to the deeds of Bran the Builder and Lan the Clever simply in order to create a convincing background mythology (which I'd take as a warning against believing that Bran the Builder really knocked up both the Wall and Storm's End) and another example is having Giants build the Wall just as they were once thought to have built Stoke Penge.

Now as it happens I don't think that Bran Stark the Nights King and Garin the Shrouded Lord are one and the same, or that they both knew the same White Lady, but I do think that a very similar mythology may have attached itself to both.

I agree, I don't think that these parallels reference the exact same things, or that the Shrouded Lord = BtB or NK.    I like looking at patterns in the series, because I think sometimes seemingly unrelated issues might reveal clues about something else-- in this case, we're given a lot of mentions about WW's that have been maddeningly incomplete in terms of understanding what they're about, yet our short journey through the Sorrows has a lot of similarities to what's going on in the North, and we're treated to a lot more explanation.   I was just trying to think outside the box to find support/ possible explanation for what's going on in the North, based on the assumption that there might be an underlying pattern to magics.  So I think it's interesting that if the Sorrows follow consistent magical rules, it could be extended to say that the icy mists may be products of an ancient "curse" (for lack of a better term; I'm reluctant to accept that word), that have transformative properties, directly responsible for converting humans into WW.

[brut]

Craster is very diligent in honoring himself as a "godly man". It seems, for his own good, he truly believes that the way of his life is actually that of a religious person. So, if we look at him from this perspective, it appears, that his actions can actually be justified:

- Craster inbreeds with his daughters because the gods require so. It seems, on the wider scale of the wildling population, he is the only one doing so routinely.

- Craster gives his sons to the WW. Also, it seems he is the only one (I cannot remember of any other reference) out of the whole wilding horde sacrificing his sons to gods (as he puts it)

So, think about this. Craster is certainly an uncomfortable addition to the wildling lot, but seems to me everyone beyond the Wall is better off with Craster, rather than without him. He is the sort of a shaman living separately from the others, and his duty is to perform certain rituals. Now, tribal shamans have certain elevated status, but so does Craster. He doesn't just live at the outskirt of a village. He rather maintains his own small settlement, which among other perks includes a longhall - by itself a construction underlining certain status.

Now, if this assumption is true, and it is Craster's duty to deliver sons to the old gods, then by definition there cannot be armies of WW, and they are rather rare lot. From what I seem to remember, Craster's female household was not that large (probably not more than 20 women), so if he had relatively the same number of boys during his span of active baby-making, that means Craster probably gave not more than 20 boys to the WW. Which underlines, that their number is strictly limited, and if Sam kills one of them, that WW is one in twenty. Part of the reason why Craster's Monster (baby boy) would be highly important to the the WW population.

[alienarea]

butterbumps!, on 05 April 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

I agree, I don't think that these parallels reference the exact same things, or that the Shrouded Lord = BtB or NK. I like looking at patterns in the series, because I think sometimes seemingly unrelated issues might reveal clues about something else-- in this case, we're given a lot of mentions about WW's that have been maddeningly incomplete in terms of understanding what they're about, yet our short journey through the Sorrows has a lot of similarities to what's going on in the North, and we're treated to a lot more explanation.   I was just trying to think outside the box to find support/ possible explanation for what's going on in the North, based on the assumption that there might be an underlying pattern to magics.  So I think it's interesting that if the Sorrows follow consistent magical rules, it could be extended to say that the icy mists may be products of an ancient "curse" (for lack of a better term; I'm reluctant to accept that word), that have transformative properties, directly responsible for converting humans into WW.

Crackpot of the day: And the ancient "curse" is the "hammer" of the CotF. It explains the low numbers of the WW - when the "hammer" came down, a certain population of male humans was transformed into WWs. They can't be transformed back and need Craster's sons to stay "alive" (or whatever their status is). An even smaller number of female humans was transformed as well, with different results. They need to mate with normal males to stay alive. Depending on whether the male or female genes are passed on, the children become skinchangers.