397 replies to this topic

[Lummel]

The faces on the trees are very dark - angry, horrifying, I find it hard to associate them with love and sweetness and joy.  For me northern religion comes across as hard and judgemental.  The old gods don't seem to be the sort to give second chances.  So I don't have a problem with the idea of the white walkers being a weapon in their armoury or a consequence of their nature or actions.

[Black Crow]

I was watching a documentary last night about the re-introduction of wolves into certain areas of the United States, with astonishing results. At Yellowstone for example they reckoned that the eco-system was breaking down due to overgrazing by deer and  other species. Wolves were re-introduced and suddenly, very suddenly over just a couple of seasons the eco-system re-set itself. The overgrazing was stopped and this in turn allowed a revival of all sorts of other plant and animal species.

Now OK this isn't Martin's world, but it struck me quite forcibly while I was watching it that there isn't any contradiction in linking the White Walkers with the Children, assuming that the Children really are cuddly tree-hugging bunnies, because death isn't just part of the natural cycle, its also necessary to keep that cycle in balance, and perhaps necessary to to impose that balance.

[Frey Pie]

Black Crow, on 06 April 2012 - 04:30 PM, said:

I was watching a documentary last night about the re-introduction of wolves into certain areas of the United States, with astonishing results. At Yellowstone for example they reckoned that the eco-system was breaking down due to overgrazing by deer and  other species. Wolves were re-introduced and suddenly, very suddenly over just a couple of seasons the eco-system re-set itself. The overgrazing was stopped and this in turn allowed a revival of all sorts of other plant and animal species.

Now OK this isn't Martin's world, but it struck me quite forcibly while I was watching it that there isn't any contradiction in linking the White Walkers with the Children, assuming that the Children really are cuddly tree-hugging bunnies, because death isn't just part of the natural cycle, its also necessary to keep that cycle in balance, and perhaps necessary to to impose that balance.

I also just saw what i assume was the same documentary.Very interesting.parallel could be made between the wolves and the Others i guess
To take something from the new season it may be of interest that the Other we see in the second episode,while humanoid in shape,manner and movement,made an odd clicking noise.Wether this means they cannot speak in a normal tongue i dont know.Sounded very like predator from the predator movies

[Francis Buck]

Just a random off-topic thought that I had: wouldn't it be possible for Jon to actually be the 1000th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch? Let's assume he "dies" temporarily. Someone else would have to become the Lord Commander in his stead. But then if Jon returns to life, and takes over the Watch again (maybe even by force), then in a weird, technical sort of way, he would basically be the 1000th Commander. You could even take it as far as him assuming a new identity of some kind, like accepting his Targaryen and/or Stark lineage, so that he's not "officially" the same person as when he was the 998th LC.

Far-fetched maybe, I know, but it just popped into my head. Either way, I can't see it being a coincidence that we're so close to the one thousandth LC. Whoever takes that role, I imagine it will have some significance to the story.

Black Crow, on 06 April 2012 - 04:30 PM, said:

Now OK this isn't Martin's world, but it struck me quite forcibly while I was watching it that there isn't any contradiction in linking the White Walkers with the Children, assuming that the Children really are cuddly tree-hugging bunnies, because death isn't just part of the natural cycle, its also necessary to keep that cycle in balance, and perhaps necessary to to impose that balance.

I definitely think this is important. I actually think the Children are basically nature-loving tree-huggers, they just happen to be okay with merciless going to war and using blood sacrifices to achieve their goals. And, of course, utilizing some very nasty magic (death, blood, tidal waves, possibly even the extreme winter).

Edited by Francis Buck, 08 April 2012 - 10:34 AM.

[hotweaselsoup]

Frey Pie, on 06 April 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

I also just saw what i assume was the same documentary.Very interesting.parallel could be made between the wolves and the Others i guess
To take something from the new season it may be of interest that the Other we see in the second episode,while humanoid in shape,manner and movement,made an odd clicking noise.Wether this means they cannot speak in a normal tongue i dont know.Sounded very like predator from the predator movies

Interesting.  Although, I suppose a frozen larynx, tongue and lips wouldn't be able to make the proper vibrations necessary for a "normal" voice.  You might just get crystallized clicking noises instead, right?

Edited by hotweaselsoup, 08 April 2012 - 02:49 PM.

[lockesnow]

speaking of the parallel between wolves and Others, Sandor Clegane speaks to Sansa about Gods.

Quote

"What evil?"  He laughed. "What gods?"
"The gods who made us all."
"All?" he mocked.  "Tell me, little bird, what kind of god makes a monster like the Imp, or a halfwit like Lady Tanda's daughter?  If there are gods, they made sheep so wolves could eat mutton, and they made the weak for the strong to play with.

***

In terms of evidence that the original Reek came from White Tree, Ramsey as Reek has his first big scene in one of the last Theon chapters, where they try and hunt down Bran and Rickon.  During Reek's first significant dialog scene he attaches "Might Be" to every other word.  In the Jon chapter immediately following this chapter, Jon captures Ygritte and hears the tale of the Winter Rose (aka the song Rhaegar reenacted when he stole Lyanna and they hid in the crypts together), Ygritte, when Jon questions her on the tale, peppers every answer to Jon with the phrase "Might Be".

On the other hand, selection/confirmation bias; might be I was primed to look for the associations and might be I have forgotten all the hundreds of other times that commoners of all parts of Westeros have uttered the commoners phrase of "Might be."

On the the CotF are not treehugging bunnies, but something far more sinister, when Jon has his dream of Bran in the tree (and here for 12 years we thought that was just cool symbolism of how Bran communicated to Jon via warging, never having a clue it was foreshadowing that he would be planted to become a tree), Ghost smells Bran-the-tree:

Quote

he sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible.  Death, he knew.  He was smelling death.  He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.

I trust Ghost's reaction more than Bloodraven's explanations.

Also, note right before this that Ghost calls to his brothers.  Ghost makes no sound, so perhaps Ghost can only make sounds of warging communication.  

Quote

There were five of them when there should have been six, and they were scattered, each apart from the others.  He felt a deep ache of emptiness, a sense of incompleteness.  The forest was vast and cold, and they were so small, so lost.  His brothers were out there somewhere, and his sister, but he had lost their scent.  He sat on his haunches and lifted his head to the darkening sky, and his cry echoed through the forest, a long lonely mournful sound.  As it died away, he pricked up his ears, listening for an answer, but the only sound was the sigh of blowing snow.
Jon?
The call came from behind him, softer than a whisper but strong too.  Can a shout be silent?

Edited by lockesnow, 08 April 2012 - 06:20 PM.

[Bran Vras]

lockesnow, on 08 April 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

speaking of the parallel between wolves and Others, Sandor Clegane speaks to Sansa about Gods.

***

In terms of evidence that the original Reek came from White Tree, Ramsey as Reek has his first big scene in one of the last Theon chapters, where they try and hunt down Bran and Rickon.  During Reek's first significant dialog scene he attaches "Might Be" to every other word.  In the Jon chapter immediately following this chapter, Jon captures Ygritte and hears the tale of the Winter Rose (aka the song Rhaegar reenacted when he stole Lyanna and they hid in the crypts together), Ygritte, when Jon questions her on the tale, peppers every answer to Jon with the phrase "Might Be".

On the other hand, selection/confirmation bias; might be I was primed to look for the associations and might be I have forgotten all the hundreds of other times that commoners of all parts of Westeros have uttered the commoners phrase of "Might be."

I don't know if you have seen a previous post of mine on this. But here is (Ramsay impersonating) Reek in ACoK

Quote

“Haven’t fucked no one since they took me, m’lord. Heke’s me true name. I was in service to the Bastard o’ the Dreadfort till the Starks give him an arrow in the back for a wedding gift.”

Here is Craster (ACoK)

Quote

“Had no good southron wine up here for a bear’s night. I could use me some wine, and a new axe. Mine’s lost its bite, can’t have that, I got me women to protect.”  

It seems to me that Ygritte's language is distinct, more sophisticated.

Edited by Bran Vras, 08 April 2012 - 06:23 PM.

[Black Crow]

Frey Pie, on 06 April 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

To take something from the new season it may be of interest that the Other we see in the second episode,while humanoid in shape,manner and movement,made an odd clicking noise.Wether this means they cannot speak in a normal tongue i dont know.

Not so sure. I watched it last night and then played it back a couple of times. The first thing  noticed was that as Jon set off to see what Craster was up to there was a crow or raven cawing and then taking wing, and I then had the impression the clicking noise wasn't the White Walker(s) but more crows/ravens chittering to each other. GRRM did mention in a recent interview that the raven was missing from the scene in the last series where Jon saves Mormont from Othor so I'd be inclined to think that the raven/crow connection is being deliberately played up here in what is already a deliberately inserted scene.

On a complete tangent, giving Bron the command of the City Watch was a nice touch.

[Elaena Targaryen]

I think the WW had two distinct sounds. You could hear a sound like ice cracking even before Jon saw anything and I think he even ran after he heard it. So I thought that would be the only sound because you can hear the 'ice cracking' sound again but then after it picks up the baby (and maybe right before) you can hear a clicking sound. (like predator) I loved the ice sound, maybe it happens when they move like they are 'ice made flesh'. Btw I loved Ghost and he looked great!

[Francis Buck]

Speaking of ravens, I'm curious if we'll ever see them talk in the show. By now I feel like it would be weird for them to suddenly introduce, but at the same time I feel like it's something that may become more and more important. I think that, if they were going to do it, to make it just really subtle, and sort of merge one-word phrases with the normal cawing. I feel like it wouldn't be hard to make it cheesy, though.

[Lykos]

Sorry to go away from the show, but I was wondering why Leaf says that the direwolves will be last, when she talks about the dwindling of the old races.  And do you think there might be a significance (symbolic or real), that there were 6 WW and 6 pups / Stark kids?

And concerning the culture of WWs we discussed, I found GRRM´s explanation of how he sees his vampires in "Fevre Dream" very interesting.  (start at 48:30 min)

[Black Crow]

lockesnow, on 08 April 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

On the the CotF are not treehugging bunnies, but something far more sinister, when Jon has his dream of Bran in the tree (and here for 12 years we thought that was just cool symbolism of how Bran communicated to Jon via warging, never having a clue it was foreshadowing that he would be planted to become a tree), Ghost smells Bran-the-tree...

I trust Ghost's reaction more than Bloodraven's explanations.

Indeed, which is one of the reasons I'm so suspicious of the happy belief in some quarters that Bloodraven and the Children are going to tell Bran how to defeat the Others. We've discussed before how the term "Others" should perhaps be read literally to encompass the Children and all of the "other old races" beyond the Wall rather than applied uniquely to the White Walkers. I'm rather coming around to the idea that while this is true it would also be a mistake to think that all of them are working to the same agenda and that while some of those represented as good aren't quite so cuddly as they appear, others still represented as bad may not be evil after all.

That feeling was certainly reinforced by last night's episode. In the book Jon didn't see the boy being given to the White Walkers, but because we're told it in the book through a mixture of narrative by Gilly and Jon putting two and two together in his head it made a lot more sense to create that scene. In doing so however we saw a less than savage Walker pick up the baby, not swinging it by the left leg like an animal taken from a snare, but cradling it.

[redriver]

I feel like one half of the puzzle has been solved or confirmed.We were told in the books that Craster leaves his sons for the Others and that the Others take them.

Last night's episode was confirmation for me that we can take the word of Craster's wives/daughters as literal.

So what do we make of the later claim by the older Craster women that the Others are Craster's sons returning?

[Lady Olenna]

I'm always late to the Heresy party but I just wanted to add that I think the clicking Predator/district 9 noise was intended to be the WW. I've had to watch it a few times because it's so dark on my tv that I can't make most of the scene out. All I can see is the slightest bit of the WW picking up the baby.

Someone had pointed out earlier that Craster probably had maybe 20 sons. But if he had 19 (is that the correct number?) wives he could have many more sons than 20. I'm inclined to believe that I am not remembering the number of wives correctly. Either way, has anybody suggested what the relevance of him offering his sheep is? What do the WW do with the sheep? Certainly they don't eat them? Is it just an act of praying for Craster?

If there is to be an ultimate war between fire and ice - and the WW are on the side of ice- there must be quite a few of them right?

I wish I had more to contribute than just questions but it's late and the land of nod beckons!

[CloudFlare]

redriver, on 10 April 2012 - 01:49 AM, said:

I feel like one half of the puzzle has been solved or confirmed.We were told in the books that Craster leaves his sons for the Others and that the Others take them.

Last night's episode was confirmation for me that we can take the word of Craster's wives/daughters as literal.

So what do we make of the later claim by the older Craster women that the Others are Craster's sons returning?

TV Craster was also quite emphatic about getting eaten out of all of his sheep. This seamed to give weight to Bran Vras' theory that pig eaters are some how different.

[redriver]

Scent of Bacon, on 10 April 2012 - 03:49 AM, said:

TV Craster was also quite emphatic about getting eaten out of all of his sheep. This seamed to give weight to Bran Vras' theory that pig eaters are some how different.

Tv Craster was worried about getting eaten out of pigs in the first episode.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

The CotF are the Westerosi equivalent of fairies from European myths, and the original fairies were about as far from Tinkerbelle as possible.  They were feared, believed to cause all sorts of domestic disasters and worse, to steal human children and leave changelings in their place.  The fairies, ancient people who were driven underground by later invaders, were also afraid of iron, whence the tradition of nailing an iron horseshoe over the doorway for "luck."  So it's safe to assume that the CotF may at worst be hostile to men, and at their best indifferent to men, because their primary interest is nature.  The CotF are like forces of nature themselves, and forces of nature are rarely cute and cuddley.

I think the "death" ghost smells at the wierwood tree might be the greenseers tangled in the wierwood net, particularly Bloodraven who for all practical purposes is dead.  He seems to think of himself as something other than alive, because when he first speaks to Bran he says "when I was quick I was called Brynden."  "Quick" means alive, BR was alive, he is no longer.

Whenever I read about the white mists I think of the 1981 movie Excalibur, which was a version of King Arthur's story.  In that movie, Merlin's greatest power was calling up the mist, which he called "dragon's breath."  And this makes me consider, again, the possibility of an ice dragon whose breath would surely be a freezing cold mist.  Just sayin'.

[CloudFlare]

redriver, on 10 April 2012 - 04:07 AM, said:

Tv Craster was worried about getting eaten out of pigs in the first episode.

Oops, I had it backwards.

[alienarea]

Do we know how many White Walkers have been around in the first Long Night?

I assume their number wasn't that huge either, and maybe the whole story is exaggerated because it has been retold so many times. This implies the CotF feel guilty for the White Walkers, so as if they created them unintentionally (I have speculated before the White Walkers might be a by-product of the magic used by the children to create the "hammer").

So we have a few White Walkers to begin with. They are raiding the North and seem unstoppable, until the last hero finds the CotF, they provide him with an obsidian weapon and he defeats the White Walkers [if there had been thousands of White Walkers the last hero couldn't have succeeded because of the numbers]. That would also make sense in terms of the 100 obsidian daggers the CotF give to the First Men. There aren't many White Walkers around, after the last hero defeats them the CotF give 100 obsidian daggers to the First Men. One for each kingdom? [we have speculated about this before] It also implies that the White Walkers were defeated but not extinct after the first Long Night, so maybe they can't be killed? [What is dead may never die ...]

[DornishHighlander]

]In aDWD when Bran is in the cave just after his first trip inside a Weirwood and he spots his father the Singer known as Leaf tells him “No. He is gone, boy. Do not seek to call him back from death.”

An almost too precise to not be deliberate choice of words. Here’s my theory and it is purely speculation. We know from Thoro’s that using the kiss (Fire) takes away from the physical form, he was fat but by time Arya visited he was skinny from resurrecting Lord Beric. What if greenseers can do something similar but using the magic of the Old Gods and Nature (Ice). What if at some point the CotF that were greenseers started to bring loved ones back just to try it?

]Now lets say this art was frowned upon so they sought a home further north. Somehow the greenseers and their followers reached the lands of always winter and somehow mated or combined with their first Wights to become the Others as we know them. We can assume that the Others are in small supply otherwise why bother to bring back so many Wights and we know only 1:1000 skin changers is a greenseer so if my theory is correct there would only be a small amount and Bran/Hodor notices that the long dead ‘seers are still “alive” in a sense so the original Others’ ‘seers might be in same condition.

What if the original Others were simply CotF that was shortened from the Other Children. To me the story of the Night’s King is too important to just be world building. We must assume before Craster other Wildlings gave up young for protection what if the tributes were killed then resurrected but allowed to age would be how we get the Woman that NK fell in love with.

From their coupling came more tributes/Others which is how we get more and the Others’ start to resemble the form of man than CotF.

It would add that sinister twist to the CotF & Old Gods we’ve been waiting for.

Might not be as articulate as I’d like but thems the breaks lol

Do you folks think this is plausible? Any thoughts?

Edited by DornishHighlander, 10 April 2012 - 05:07 AM.