40 replies to this topic

[Bolivar]

Arya comments on a strange similarity between Jaqen and Syrio in her first chapter of ACoK. She's also clinging to the lesson of "seeing."

[Xtopher]

Dont you think Jaqen would have told Arya he was Syrio?
why wouldnt he?

[Ran]

I don't know... maybe the fact that they're an arcane guild of assassins suggests they have rules and beliefs about what they do, and those rules and beliefs may extend to not talking about who they've been previously to outsiders?

[Xtopher]

But he obviously wants Arya to become one of them, as he gave her the coin and the words. I havent read feast so i dont know if thats true or not but it is a good guess at that point right?

[Ran]

Even so, he may not be allowed to discuss past identities.

[Abaddon]

Look, the truth of whether Syrio lives is known only to one person -- George... (okay, maybe his wife, maybe D&D).  It's ambiguous, both in the books and the show, and I think for a reason.  I don't expect we will ever have a resolution, personally.  I think George likes to tweak his readers that way.  (Caveat: if D&D know, that would imply we will have a resolution, otherwise there's no need for them to know).  Maybe it also gives him a way out of writing a death scene for a personally loved but not story critical character, for that matter.

I do find it weird that people are trying to apply logic (Occam's Razor for example) to something that is literally the whim of a single individual writing an entirely fictional story.  George has done far sillier stuff than this.  Syrio did not die on-screen so having him "come back to life" doesn't apply.

My prediction: we'll never know.  Personally, I think he died and (obviously) isn't Jaqen.  But we have no hard evidence to prove it one way or another.

On topic, I don't think the HBO GO tidbit proves anything at all, there's no way whoever wrote that has that information one way or another.

Edited by Abaddon, 03 April 2012 - 01:32 PM.

[WinterWarrior]

Syrio is dead, unfortunately, at the hands of Trant. I wonder though if his face is somehow among the dead in Braavos...don't want to put a spoiler in for those who have not read Book 5....I see no way that Syrio is Jaqen, no way!

There is a difference between recuscitation and resurrection. Gandalf the White was more like a resurrected being, the same being yet transformed to a higher being that was its nature all along; Martin's living dead are more like rescuscitated corpses, already somewhat decomposed both physically and spiritually. In Christian biblical stories it is the difference between resurrection (Jesus) and rescuscitation (Lazarus). Lazarus had started decomposing, smelled and was a "living" corpse after 3 days in the tomb.  (Ok, we are getting close to Easter here, so that came to mind). Martin's resuscitated dead make me think of Lazarus type creatures.

Edited by WinterWarrior, 03 April 2012 - 01:51 PM.

[Rockroi]

I think its 95% chance that Syrio is dead.  Its pretty clear; older man armed with a wooden sword going against a well armed and armored (don't forget that) knight of the KG.  Martin himself talks about that scene and states that in the book it makes more sense how the scene played out (the Lannister men were unarmored or in half-helms etc).  Therefore, it’s very hard to figure out how Syrio could have stayed alive. This says nothing of Trant who, you would think, would know if they guy he was fighting ended up dead.  That does seem tricky?  How could Syrio still be alive if Trant was, you know actually trying to kill him?  Did Trant just forget who he was?

The remaining 5% is the new direction the stories have been trending (see Spoiler vision below) wherein characters are killed before our very eyes OR in such a manner as to seem as if a death has taken place only to discover the character is very much alive.  I'm not saying that has happened here.

What I am saying is that Martin obviously wanted to keep that window open just in case a story idea presented itself later wherein Syrio's return (especially neaer to Dany) may prove valuable.

However, my bottom-line is this: there is zero evidence Syrio is alive.  None.  Not one bit.  Nothing.  So, if he does come back, the author has some explaining to do.  And it better be better than... well, see below...

Spoiler

Here is a list of characters the books declared dead at some point but we have since come to understand that that same character is still alive:

Bran Stark
Rickon Stark
*Catlyn Stark
*Bedric Dondarion
Sandor Clegane (unclear)
Gregor Clegane
Davos Seaworth
Aegon Targaryen (VI)
Lord Connington
*Mance Ryder
Stannis Baratheon (unclear)

So, that’s a lot of characters there; that includes several POVs and a variety of important and not-so important characters.  Several of the characters - such as Cat and Mance - we actually SAW them die (hence the * above) ; we did not hear about them dying; we didn't infer it as if they died in an explosion; Dr. House did not show up to inform us of what REALLY happened.  No- saw them die.  And then they return.  In the cases of the Hound and Stannis there appears to be some source that declares the character dead, but we have no evidence to make us think that way.  So...

If Mance Ryder can still be alive after we saw him burn to death, then maybe Syrio can still be alive.  However- see my statement above- we have NO EVIDENCE that he still lives.  

I used the spoiler vision because I am unclear about talking about events that occurred after the series.  So, better safe than sorry.

Edited by Rockroi, 03 April 2012 - 03:29 PM.

[Envie]

I think that side note is misleading and inaccurate.

GRRM purposely left Syrio's end scene with Trant out... he does that a lot when he wants mystery involved, and HBO kept with that theme for the scene as well. BUT, there is one tiny hint in the show that may or may not have been given the nod from Martin. Replay that scene's end again and again a few times.

As Arya is running away, you hear the remainder of the fight behind her ... a shout, the clatter of a METAL sword (remember, Syrio only had half a wood one left) hitting the ground, and then the sounds of several other men in agony. Does that sound like Syrio dying to you? To me it sounded like Syrio disarming Trant's sword and the yelling may be Syrio running off and being chased or the other guards. If Martin allows hints in the television series, then that's a good one in my book.

Edited by Envie, 03 April 2012 - 11:00 PM.

[lmanion]

The question to me is would he have killed Trant or just KOed him as in the books as Arya is running away she reflects that the other guards are either dead or dieing. Trant being alive can be evidence either that he killed Syrio or Syrio KOed him and escaped which is what makes it a pretty cool little mystery.

[Grail King]

Trant is a scum bag, I picked up on the metal to metal contact in the scene as Arya ran, I think GRRM purposely left that open so if he decides to bring Syrio back he will show Trant as deceiving Cersei so he doesn't come off as a failure in her eyes.

[Vuron]

Grail King, on 04 April 2012 - 07:02 AM, said:

Trant is a scum bag, I picked up on the metal to metal contact in the scene as Arya ran, I think GRRM purposely left that open so if he decides to bring Syrio back he will show Trant as deceiving Cersei so he doesn't come off as a failure in her eyes.

I don't think it has anything to do with Trant's deception.  Trant's mission was never to kill Syrio, but only to capture Arya.  It makes no difference to Cersei whether Syrio is still alive, or not, as he was only a dancing master.

Personally, I think Syrio is dead and believe there is more evidence that he is dead compared to the evidence that he is alive.  The only evidence that he's alive is that we don't actually see him die.

[Jaxom 1974]

Rockroi, on 03 April 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

What I am saying is that Martin obviously wanted to keep that window open just in case a story idea presented itself later wherein Syrio's return (especially neaer to Dany) may prove valuable.

Agree with this.

What's interesting is that the ambiguity of Syrio's death in both the story and the show makes for an interesting option for the show runners.  What if they choose to have Syrio actually be alive, while GRRM always intended that he be dead...?  Would they make that adjustment?

[JetboyGirl]

It's a TV show. The audience thinks that Trant killed Syrio because of the way it was filmed. Therefore the inconsequential side blurb on HBO is going to refer to that momentous scene in a way that fits with the audience's perception of it, regardless of whether it is 'true' or not.

Anyways, I absolutely adore the guy who plays Trant. What a slimy bad-ass. That scene with Syrio was phenomenal. He's a wonderful villian.

Edited by JetboyGirl, 04 April 2012 - 11:08 AM.

[Greywolf2375]

Jaxom 1974, on 04 April 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

Agree with this.

What's interesting is that the ambiguity of Syrio's death in both the story and the show makes for an interesting option for the show runners.  What if they choose to have Syrio actually be alive, while GRRM always intended that he be dead...?  Would they make that adjustment?

Subsituting one character for another, removing characters altogether I think they can get away with. If  the books go in one direction and the show decides to go in another for something like that I think it would be very had to justify that.  There definitely have been TV characters in the past that have either returned from the dead or were supposed to die but ended up staying on because of fan feedback (Spike on Buffy 7 Helo on BSG as examples).

I'm one of the first to say the book/= the TV show, but a change like that would be too much IMO.

[Maester Murks]

Abaddon, on 03 April 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

I do find it weird that people are trying to apply logic (Occam's Razor for example) to something that is literally the whim of a single individual writing an entirely fictional story.

Well, that's what fans do, especially in SF and Fantasy

[Leofric]

Envie, on 03 April 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

GRRM purposely left Syrio's end scene with Trant out... he does that a lot when he wants mystery involved,

GRRM left it out because he's restricting himself to POV narratives... Arya didn't stay to see what  happened so we didn't see how the fight ends.  

But I think Syrio is dead and would be disappointed if that wasn't the case.   If Syrio lives, then it cheapens his sacrifice dying to save Arya, it cheapens his honor that the First Sword of Braavos did, in the end, run, and it cheapens his lesson to Arya to "see with your eyes" where she realizes he can't win against the better armed adn armored Trant.

[Envie]

Leofric, on 04 April 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

But I think Syrio is dead and would be disappointed if that wasn't the case.   If Syrio lives, then it cheapens his sacrifice dying to save Arya, it cheapens his honor that the First Sword of Braavos did, in the end, run, and it cheapens his lesson to Arya to "see with your eyes" where she realizes he can't win against the better armed adn armored Trant.

I disagree. I don't think it cheapens the lesson at all. Syrio was not just a braggart about his skills, nor were all the things he taught Arya about being faster, lighter, quieter and more observant just a bunch of 'wind' so to speak... Obviously a Bravosi is going to have the upper hand over a heavily armored opponent with the more fencing style of sword play. I'm not saying there's NO way a good knight with sword and armor is going to have beaten Syrio because yes, the fact remains he only had a broken wood stick left and Trant is supposedly a great fighter if he's kingsguard in the first place. So its entirely possible he did die to save Arya but I'm not going to be disappointed if he's alive and used later in the story.

He did say "Not today!" with Arya to make a point to her that she must escape and live...but I'm also hoping it was for himself.

And I'm sticking with my theory that the multiple shouts you hear as well as a metal sword clattering to the ground is Syrio's escape, not death.

[Joe Scallywag]

Howdyphillip, on 03 April 2012 - 03:06 AM, said:

Absolutely 100% false... GRRM has never elaborated about the fate of the sword master of Bravos.

I saw an interview with him where he said he was surpriced this question came up so often, while he didn't confirm definetly that he was dead he said something like: "Syrio was certainly left in a hopeless situation and I'll leave it to you to draw your own conclusions from that"

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

Envie, on 03 April 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:

I think that side note is misleading and inaccurate.

GRRM purposely left Syrio's end scene with Trant out... he does that a lot when he wants mystery involved, and HBO kept with that theme for the scene as well. BUT, there is one tiny hint in the show that may or may not have been given the nod from Martin. Replay that scene's end again and again a few times.

As Arya is running away, you hear the remainder of the fight behind her ... a shout, the clatter of a METAL sword (remember, Syrio only had half a wood one left) hitting the ground, and then the sounds of several other men in agony. Does that sound like Syrio dying to you? To me it sounded like Syrio disarming Trant's sword and the yelling may be Syrio running off and being chased or the other guards. If Martin allows hints in the television series, then that's a good one in my book.

GRRM didn't show Syrio's death in the series because:

1. The scene was much more emotional leaving him fighting against the odds than seeing another grusome death.

2. People have been talking about this scene for over a decade. It is brought up at least once a week on these boards, why tie it up when you can leave it another talking point for people to debate and get into the show (& books) more