50 replies to this topic

[Queen Cersei I]

Lord Littlefinger, on 02 April 2012 - 05:55 PM, said:

One things for sure Roose and Ramsay would be dead and Petyr Baelish would be Lord of Winterfell.

(SubSection, Lyanna marries Edmure)

If Cersei had married Jon A, he would have ended up dead, poisoned within a week of their union. Or perhaps he would have been left around long enough for Cersei to get impregnated with his child-- a golden haired boy called Joffrey Arryn who took after his mother to a remarkable extent.

If Cat had married Robert, Robert would probably be an ever so slightly less fat, ever so slightly less constantly drunken version of himself. Cat would have more bastards to ignore, but King Bob would surely ignore them as well. Cat would also probably have roughly 10-15 children, rather than 5. And the list of Cat's sexual complaints would probably extend far beyond the issue of "aching loins...."

Lysa and Ned... this is the only one that I can't picture. I would think that a traumatic forced abortion at age 15, being forced into marriage with an ancient man, not having the love, support, or respect of her husband, having repeated, traumatic miscarriages, etc.  would all lead to some long term psychological damage for any woman. However, the GRRM portrays Lysa as such a ridiculous, screaching caricature its honestly hard to say for sure....

[Silmarien]

All I know is it would have been disastrous.

The North would be in major trouble.  it would have maybe ONE sickly heir due to the Moon Tea ruining Lysa's womb.  I do think Ned would have been kinder to Lysa than Jon Arryn, and perhaps Lysa would not have become so bitter and batshit crazy as she became with Arryn.

Robert plus Catelyn - ZOMG disaster.  Catelyn would have maintained her dignity, but been humiliated by her husband's frequent and public wanderings.  However, she might've preferred the fact that the bastards were not going to be threatening her own children's claims to the throne.  And she'd probably have popped out 5-10 of them, as said above.

Jon Arryn would definitely have died much sooner, perhaps after, as Queen Cersei I suggests, popping out one or two suspiciously blond/Lannister looking heir to the Vale.  Then Cersei would have ruled as Lady Paramount of the Vale for as long as possible.

Lyanna marrying Edmure?  She would have hated this union as much as with Robert - Edmure seems to have similar inclinations as Robert when it comes to bastards (Catelyn thinks to herself that it would not surprise her if Edmure had a dozen natural children - aka bastards.  That is close to Robert's 16!).  If, however, Edmure had remained faithful to Lyanna after their marriage, and came to love her, they could have lived happily.

If Edmure was unhappy with the marriage, and continued whoring all the time,  I could foresee Lyanna STILL running off with Rhaegar, however, the implications politically could have been far less disastrous, unless Brandon pulled the same thing he did before by running off to KL and demanding that Rhaegar come out to die.

However we're given no indication that Edmure is interested in whoring after marrying Roslin - not that he's given much chance since he's a prisoner after the marriage, but still.  Lyanna/Edmure might've worked.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Silmarien, on 02 April 2012 - 10:44 PM, said:

All I know is it would have been disastrous.

The North would be in major trouble.  it would have maybe ONE sickly heir due to the Moon Tea ruining Lysa's womb.  I do think Ned would have been kinder to Lysa than Jon Arryn, and perhaps Lysa would not have become so bitter and batshit crazy as she became with Arryn.

Robert plus Catelyn - ZOMG disaster.  Catelyn would have maintained her dignity, but been humiliated by her husband's frequent and public wanderings.  However, she might've preferred the fact that the bastards were not going to be threatening her own children's claims to the throne.  And she'd probably have popped out 5-10 of them, as said above.

Jon Arryn would definitely have died much sooner, perhaps after, as Queen Cersei I suggests, popping out one or two suspiciously blond/Lannister looking heir to the Vale.  Then Cersei would have ruled as Lady Paramount of the Vale for as long as possible.

Are you sure? We all know Jamie isn't the Lannister man Cersei really wanted to bare the children of.

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Lyanna marrying Edmure?  She would have hated this union as much as with Robert - Edmure seems to have similar inclinations as Robert when it comes to bastards (Catelyn thinks to herself that it would not surprise her if Edmure had a dozen natural children - aka bastards.  That is close to Robert's 16!).  If, however, Edmure had remained faithful to Lyanna after their marriage, and came to love her, they could have lived happily.

If Edmure was unhappy with the marriage, and continued whoring all the time,  I could foresee Lyanna STILL running off with Rhaegar, however, the implications politically could have been far less disastrous, unless Brandon pulled the same thing he did before by running off to KL and demanding that Rhaegar come out to die.

However we're given no indication that Edmure is interested in whoring after marrying Roslin - not that he's given much chance since he's a prisoner after the marriage, but still.  Lyanna/Edmure might've worked.

who says there would have been any moon tea. Ned is kind enough raise a Little Lord Baelish.  And the Stark line would have gotten a desperately needed transfusion of mental faculties.

[Silmarien]

Lord Littlefinger, on 02 April 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

Are you sure? We all know Jamie isn't the Lannister man Cersei really wanted to bare the children of. who says there would have been any moon tea. Ned is kind enough raise a Little Lord Baelish.  And the Stark line would have gotten a desperately needed transfusion of mental faculties.

Hoster Tully forced Lysa's abortion before she was betrothed to Jon Arryn.  Ned Stark couldn't have raised her bastard.

Who, other than Jaime, is the Lannister Cersei wanted to bear children with?  Huh?

[Merman of Manderly]

Cersei + Rhaegar = No Rebellion. Everyone lives.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Silmarien, on 03 April 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

Hoster Tully forced Lysa's abortion before she was betrothed to Jon Arryn.  Ned Stark couldn't have raised her bastard.

Who, other than Jaime, is the Lannister Cersei wanted to bear children with?  Huh?

Yes, He did. But he did so in order to make her a more eligible as a potential wife.  Were Ned betrothed to Lysa instead this wouldn't be necessary.

Lord Tywin.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Merman of Manderly, on 03 April 2012 - 01:29 AM, said:

Cersei + Rhaegar = No Rebellion. Everyone lives.

Why would you say that?  If Rhaegar rides off with Lyanna Stark you still have a huge problem.  Now maybe Tywin is the hand and the Rebellion would be crushed. Or Robet is killed in the battle of the bells.  However its not clear that Lannister support wouldn't have pushed the Tyrells into Robert's camp.  And also with Tywin away, Balon might have risen sooner.

[Silmarien]

Lord Littlefinger, on 03 April 2012 - 12:33 PM, said:

Yes, He did. But he did so in order to make her a more eligible as a potential wife.  Were Ned betrothed to Lysa instead this wouldn't be necessary.

Lord Tywin.

Cersei wanted to fuck her father?  ugh..........

No.  Cersei wanted to BE her father.  Not fuck him.  She wanted to fuck her mirror image - Jaime.

Hoster Tully acted before Lysa ever GOT a marriage offer, so Ned couldn't have raised the bastard.  She was 15 or so when he forced the abortion.  Well before Ned could've ever known about the baby.  You really think Hoster Tully would've been like "Yo, Ned, Lysa's knocked up, you cool with raising her bastard or should I have it aborted?"  Ned: "NO of course do not hurt the poor child, I will raise him and love him as my own!"

NOPE!  The fact your daughter got knocked up is something you NEVER EVER tell a prospective husband.  Sigh.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Silmarien, on 03 April 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

Cersei wanted to fuck her father?  ugh..........

No.  Cersei wanted to BE her father.  Not fuck him.  She wanted to fuck her mirror image - Jaime.

why do you assume its one and not both?  

Quote

Hoster Tully acted before Lysa ever GOT a marriage offer, so Ned couldn't have raised the bastard.  She was 15 or so when he forced the abortion.  Well before Ned could've ever known about the baby.  You really think Hoster Tully would've been like "Yo, Ned, Lysa's knocked up, you cool with raising her bastard or should I have it aborted?"  Ned: "NO of course do not hurt the poor child, I will raise him and love him as my own!"

NOPE!  The fact your daughter got knocked up is something you NEVER EVER tell a prospective husband.  Sigh.

Oh, but Hoster did tell Jon Arryn. That was why Jon Arryn wanted to marry Lysa because she was proven to be fertile, and his heir had just been killed. *sigh*  Now yes in the book Lysa was not betrothed to anyone. However we are saying what if Lysa had married Ned.  One Scenario under which this could have occurred was if Brandon had been betrothed to Catelyn and Ned to Lysa.  Obviously Catelyn was already betrothed to Brandon when Lysa was impregnated. Given that they were already at war Ned would have been unable to break the betrothal to Lysa even if he wanted to.  Though, Ned is quite forgiving and may have been willing to turn the other cheek.  Then when Lyanna dies Ned has his own "bastard" and Catelyn marries Robert instead of Ned, with them both having their betrothed killed by Targaryens.  Lastly, Jon Arryn then marries Cersei to cement the Lannister-Arryn-Stark-Tully-Baratheon alliance, as Robert did in the story well all know and love.

Edited by Lord Littlefinger's Lash, 03 April 2012 - 01:23 PM.

[Fragile Bird]

Lord Littlefinger, on 03 April 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

why do you assume its one and not both?  

So that's why Tywin never smiled?  Except to Cersei?  In her POV she says it was because he was arranging the marriage to Rhaegar.......

[Merman of Manderly]

Lord Littlefinger, on 03 April 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

Why would you say that?  If Rhaegar rides off with Lyanna Stark you still have a huge problem.  Now maybe Tywin is the hand and the Rebellion would be crushed. Or Robet is killed in the battle of the bells.  However its not clear that Lannister support wouldn't have pushed the Tyrells into Robert's camp.  And also with Tywin away, Balon might have risen sooner.

Perhaps if he married Cersei he wouldn't have been as dissatisfied with her as he was with Elia. Cersei is more attractive, and would have borne him more children than Elia did. Those reasons might have kept him from riding off with lyanna in the first place.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Merman of Manderly, on 03 April 2012 - 07:02 PM, said:

Perhaps if he married Cersei he wouldn't have been as dissatisfied with her as he was with Elia. Cersei is more attractive, and would have borne him more children than Elia did. Those reasons might have kept him from riding off with lyanna in the first place.

Yeah but he rode off with Lyanna because the prince who was promised was to be born of their line.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Fragile Bird, on 03 April 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

So that's why Tywin never smiled?  Except to Cersei?  In her POV she says it was because he was arranging the marriage to Rhaegar.......

oh i'm not sure if they were actually sleeping with each other or if she just wanted to.  She got really upset about finding Shae in his bed though....

[The King in the South]

Lord Littlefinger, on 03 April 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

Yeah but he rode off with Lyanna because the prince who was promised was to be born of their line.

He rode off because he needed 3 children and Elia was basically sterile after 2. Assuming Cersei isn't sterile, I don't see why he would feel the need to have run off, unless Rhaegar was bullshitting everybody with his whole TPTWP machination.

[Silmarien]

Merman of Manderly, on 03 April 2012 - 07:02 PM, said:

Perhaps if he married Cersei he wouldn't have been as dissatisfied with her as he was with Elia. Cersei is more attractive, and would have borne him more children than Elia did. Those reasons might have kept him from riding off with lyanna in the first place.

I don't think Rhaegar only cared about his wife's appearance.  Cersei's personality would've been a major turnoff to him, I believe, especially if a person like Lyanna intrigued him so much to the point of being attracted to her after the KotLT incident.

[Merman of Manderly]

Silmarien, on 03 April 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

I don't think Rhaegar only cared about his wife's appearance.  Cersei's personality would've been a major turnoff to him, I believe, especially if a person like Lyanna intrigued him so much to the point of being attracted to her after the KotLT incident.

I think if Cersei ended up with Rhaegar she would have been a completely different person. The reason she is the way she is now is because she's suffered years of abuse within her marriage to Robert. I think there's a possibility that they would have been in love... Cersei isn't that different from Lyanna after all (strong, wilful, and encumbered by her gender)

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

The King in the South, on 03 April 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

He rode off because he needed 3 children and Elia was basically sterile after 2. Assuming Cersei isn't sterile, I don't see why he would feel the need to have run off, unless Rhaegar was bullshitting everybody with his whole TPTWP machination.

Silmarien, on 03 April 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

I don't think Rhaegar only cared about his wife's appearance.  Cersei's personality would've been a major turnoff to him, I believe, especially if a person like Lyanna intrigued him so much to the point of being attracted to her after the KotLT incident.

I don't think so. I think it was TPTWP which is separate from the whole dragon has three heads thing.  I think the reason Lyanna went with him was because Howland Reed basically got confirmation of Rhaegar's theory when he was on the isle of faces.

[Fragile Bird]

Lord Littlefinger, on 03 April 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

oh i'm not sure if they were actually sleeping with each other or if she just wanted to.  She got really upset about finding Shae in his bed though....

Actually, a comment I've made before, I find it fascinating that we have never seen Cersei reminisce about her "first time", even though we've seen a lot of her POVs and a lot of her thoughts about sex.  I find that highly suspicious in GRRM land.  (We've heard about Roberts, resulting in Maya, Jon Snow's, LF's, Lysa's and a few others, I think)  We've seen Jaime's, of course, and my thoughts on how that went led to nasty aspersions against my character by certain other posters.  I found the description of Jaime's "first night"  as a description of a virgin being broken in by an experienced partner, and I always wondered where that experienced partner got her introduction to sex.

However, I don't think it was Tywin, but God only knows, I probably don't visit the gutter often enough.

[Jem]

Robert + Cat - I think that Cat could have made this work. She wouldn't have necessarily been happy, but being a 'good wife' she would have accepted Robert's infidelities to some extent. I also think that she would be stern enough to stand up to him without being hysterical about it. I think that Cat would not have fuelled the hurtful 'tit for tat' cycle that Robert and Cersei engaged in. She would have acted as a circuit breaker to the worst of Robert's excesses. Again, not that she would be happy.

Jon Arryn + Cersei - Assuming that Jon is still Robert's hand and that he and Cersei live more or less permanently in KL. Also, assuming that Jaime is still a KG (I don't know how much we are allowed to alter in this alternative universe). I'd say that Cersei and Jaime would still get up to hanky-panky and Cersei would still be willing to pass off her brother's children as her husband's. Jon Arryn would be grateful for the heirs and, assuming that the Arryn family don't have any distinguishing inheritable traits (like the Baratheon black hair), Jon would be none the wiser. They would live happily ever after, until Cersei's eldest son came of age. Then, tragically on a summer vacation, Jon Arryn would accidentally sleep-walk his way out of the Moon Door.

Ned + Lysa - If Lysa could have children (assuming that the Arryn's problem lies with Jon - and it could), then I think Lysa and Ned could have been OK. Ned would treat any wife of his with the utmost respect, no matter who she was. And if Lysa wasn't upset/crazy over her miscarried pregnancies, she could be a good wife. And if she felt loved and valued by Ned, she could possibly get over her Littlefinger obsession.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Jem, on 03 April 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

And if she felt loved and valued by Ned, she could possibly get over her Littlefinger obsession.

hey hey hey lets got get  crazy here.  Someone has got to set the North to rights after centuries of Stark incompetence.