132 replies to this topic

[Jaehaerys Sand]

Edmure Tully has a reputation for being a bit of a fool in Westeros. But is he really? Let’s review:

· Edmure lost his first battle to Jaime Lannister at the start of the war.

I find it hard to blame Edmure for this. Unlike Jaime, he’s never fought in a battle before, and he didn’t exactly have much time to prepare after his stupid sister kidnapped the son of the most powerful man in the Seven Kingdoms.

· He was with prostitutes when Jaime attempted his escape.

So what? He was supposed to suspect the Lannister’s sent false envoys? That isn’t something most families are willing to do.

· He messed up Robb’s plan to trap Tywin in the west.

Again, I don’t see how this is Edmure’s fault. Robb should have explained his plans better before heading west, and honestly, I don’t think Robb’s plan was that good anyway. Tywin’s troops were trying to cross a river under heavy archer fire, then fight up an incline. I don’t care what hill the Blackfish found, it wasn’t better land than what Edmure had.

Plus, Edmure didn’t know Storm’s End had fallen. Catelyn only received word of that after Edmure had left, and she makes no mention of sending word to Edmure. Without having to worry about him defending King’s Landing, it makes complete sense to keep him out of the Westerlands and let Robb keep raiding.

· He didn’t want to marry the Frey girl.

I would be mad at having an arranged marriage to someone who was I was probably going to hate too.

· He had a child during the Red Wedding.

He was away from the fighting with musicians right outside his door. He was understandably distracted.

· He surrendered Riverrun to Jaime.

Probably his worst mood, but even then, he was trying to save his people’s lives. And Riverrun was going to fall, it was only a matter of time.

Edited by Jaehaerys Sand, 02 April 2012 - 06:35 PM.

[Ser Hippie]

^{I don't think he's an idiot so much as he's a good, warm-hearted guy way out of his depth.}

[Arkantos]

Jaehaerys Sand, on 02 April 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

Edmure Tully has a reputation for being a bit of a fool in Westeros. But is he really? Let’s review:

· Edmure lost his first battle to Jaime Lannister at the start of the war.

I find it hard to blame Edmure for this. Unlike Jaime, he’s never fought in a battle before, and he didn’t exactly have much time to prepare after his stupid sister kidnapped the son of the most powerful man in the Seven Kingdoms.

If he didn't have enough preparation or experience then he shouldn't have fought the battle, he should've hid behind his walls or something.

Jaehaerys Sand, on 02 April 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

· He was with prostitutes when Jaime attempted his escape.

So what? He was supposed to suspect the Lannister’s sent false envoys? That isn’t something most families are willing to do.

He was supposed to be doing his job of making sure Jaime didn't escape, fucking whores is something that could wait.

Jaehaerys Sand, on 02 April 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

· He messed up Robb’s plan to trap Tywin in the west.

Again, I don’t see how this is Edmure’s fault. Robb should have explained his plans better before heading west, and honestly, I don’t think Robb’s plan was that good anyway. Tywin’s troops were trying to cross a river under heavy archer fire, then fight up an incline. I don’t care what hill the Blackfish found, it wasn’t better land than what Edmure had.

Plus, Edmure didn’t know Storm’s End had fallen. Catelyn only received word of that after Edmure had left, and she makes no mention of sending word to Edmure. Without having to worry about him defending King’s Landing, it makes complete sense to keep him out of the Westerlands and let Robb keep raiding.

He was told to hold Riverrun, not to take whatever chance he could to do damage to Tywins forces, just to hold the fort.
Robb's plan would've done a lot, it could've gave Stannis the opportunity to take King's Landing without even meaning to and i'm sure Robb would of had a plan to decimate Tywin, rather than just bloody his nose as Edmure did.

Jaehaerys Sand, on 02 April 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

· He didn’t want to marry the Frey girl.

I would be mad at having an arranged marriage to someone who was I was probably going to hate too.

It was pretty much his fault that Robb didn't have the opportunity to annihilate Tywin, he shouldn't have complained so much.

[FuzzyJAM]

There isn't much to suggest that he's an idiot but there's equally as little to suggest that he's competent.

[Storms End]

So let's see.

Someone with no military experience assumes command against one of the most celebrated knights/commander who's actually fought in wars, and actually marches on the golden tooth right into the meat grinder, getting thrown back twice if I'm not mistaken.

You don't think Robb's plan was a good idea, I don't see why not, he actually wanted Tywin to chase him while he stormed around the westerlands, pretty much allowing Stannis to smash Kings Landing leaving Tywin in the middle helpless.

Nor do you even believe Robb remotely communicated between Ser Edmure and himself, even though he explicably stated to remain at Riverrun whilst he marched.

Being not present at the Red Wedding is a non factor, it wasn't really his fault as he was consummating his marriage.

Surrendering Riverrun was the smartest thing he ever did, although, it honestly should never of came to that if he didn't fail so hard though the campaign.

[Ser Hippie]

The bad decision w/regards to his first battle with the Lannisters isn't that he gave battle; the Lannisters are raiding and destroying his bannermen's land, as the acting Lord Paramount of the Trident, he has to do something or he loses face and probably loses the war before Robb ever gets close to joining forces with him.

His mistake was doing things like splitting his forces and trying to do too much at all once - Ned comments on this during the scene where the people from the Riverlands tell him that Edmure has sent men to defend the various villages and what not.

Basically, his tactics at the start of the war demonstrate why Robb needs Roose Bolton commanding his forces at the Green Fork.

That being said, I'm still comfortable with my reading of him - good guy, would have made a good lord in peacetime. Terrible commander/wartime Lord of Riverrun. Somewhat similar to Ned as Hand, actually.

Edited by Ser Hippie, 02 April 2012 - 07:03 PM.

[Storms End]

Ser Hippie, on 02 April 2012 - 07:02 PM, said:

That being said, I'm still comfortable with my reading of him - good guy, would have made a good lord in peacetime. Terrible commander/wartime Lord of Riverrun. Somewhat similar to Ned as Hand, actually.

Similar to Ned? I can't see that in the slightest, would,should,could, Edmure was never a lord during peacetime, and he was an utter disaster during war, whereas Ned was a great Lord and an execeptional commander as he pretty much secured Robert's crown for him.

[Ser Hippie]

I was referring to both of them being men who might otherwise have lived long happy lives being undermined by the larger world in which they live. Would Edmure have been a 'great' lord, I don't know, but given his concern for his people, he likely would have been at least a good one. The problem isn't that he's stupid or an idiot but rather that he took over just as a ruinous war was beginning against ruthless opponents that were simply better at that game than him.

Similarly, Ned's a great battle commander and rules the North well but he is completely out of his depth in King's Landing.

I'm not saying the two were equivalently talented or intelligent, i'm analogizing Edmure's failings at war with Ned's failings at politics.

[Ramsay Gimp]

The whole "Hold Riverrun" thing was Robb's fault, and the Blackfish's. GRRM even admitted that they share much of the blame but put it all on Edmure to "soften him up" for the Frey marriage

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

Ser Hippie, I couldn't agree more. The, largely undeserved, flak he constantly has to take really bugs me. Even when you consider the extraordinary circumstances, and how inherently unsuited/untrained he may be to handle these, he never really screws up. In fact, for a man who is supposedly out of his element (warfare, that is), he seemed to handle himself quite well. And yet, every character, and their mother, seem to always blame Edmure. For everything. Oh. My. God. He's the real black sheep fish in the family!

If the story had been about the Century of Long-Lasting Peace, Edmure, the just and benevolent Lord of Riverrun, would have been one of the heroes, praised and loved by his subjects. Also, it would have been a rather dull story, but there you go...

Edmure: Amiable guy, (probably a) great peace-time Lord, adequate but unexperienced commander. Yes, clearly he's a bumbling idiot...

(Bit of a rant, but the "blame Edmure" parts get to me, I blame GRRM, rather than the characters, though... )

[Jaehaerys Sand]

Re: Stannis.

This is one of the problems with attacking Edmure. Stannis was staying at Storm's End until it was captured, and everyone thought that it was going to take months. That's why Tywin was willing to leave King's Landing undefended in the first place.

But Edmure didn't know Storm's End had fallen. He was in the field when the letter came, and it is never mentioned that they sent word to Edmure that it happened. Catelyn tells the Maester to send a raven to Robb, but no rider to Edmure. It is possible that she may have mentioned it to one of the runner's, but she didn't seem to attatch much importance to the news.

[Silmarien]

Jaehaerys Sand, on 02 April 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

Edmure Tully has a reputation for being a bit of a fool in Westeros. But is he really? Let’s review:

· Edmure lost his first battle to Jaime Lannister at the start of the war.

I find it hard to blame Edmure for this. Unlike Jaime, he’s never fought in a battle before, and he didn’t exactly have much time to prepare after his stupid sister kidnapped the son of the most powerful man in the Seven Kingdoms.

Catelyn is NOT an idiot.  Sigh.  I cannot fathom how you can claim Catelyn is stupid for seizing Tyrion when she tried her very best to NOT be seen, and was afraid she'd end up dead in a ditch after Tyrion recognized her.

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· He was with prostitutes when Jaime attempted his escape.

So what? He was supposed to suspect the Lannister’s sent false envoys? That isn’t something most families are willing to do.

This is neither here nor there.  He should have been more vigilant about Jaime and NOT SLEPT WITH WHORES while Jaime was his prisoner?  He knew the Lannisters were burning the Riverlands, another thing "most families aren't willing to do"; Edmure should have been paying attention to HIS MOST IMPORTANT DAMNED CAPTIVE.

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· He messed up Robb’s plan to trap Tywin in the west.

Again, I don’t see how this is Edmure’s fault. Robb should have explained his plans better before heading west, and honestly, I don’t think Robb’s plan was that good anyway. Tywin’s troops were trying to cross a river under heavy archer fire, then fight up an incline. I don’t care what hill the Blackfish found, it wasn’t better land than what Edmure had.

Plus, Edmure didn’t know Storm’s End had fallen. Catelyn only received word of that after Edmure had left, and she makes no mention of sending word to Edmure. Without having to worry about him defending King’s Landing, it makes complete sense to keep him out of the Westerlands and let Robb keep raiding.

Sure, Edmure wasn't totally at fault here - but Robb and Ser Brynden weren't willing to share all of their strategy because Edmure wasn't trustworthy.  He was raised to be a LORD.  Edmure should have acted like a good Lord.  He was a buffoon.  Got himself and Riverrun captured.  This doesn't denote a good commander nor someone worthy of being in Robb's inner circle of advisors.

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· He didn’t want to marry the Frey girl.

I would be mad at having an arranged marriage to someone who was I was probably going to hate too.

Ok, I'll give you this one.  Who would've wanted to marry a Frey girl?  I've never seen this held against him, other than the obvious criticism that he should have cared more about his wife's personality and character than what she looked like - a valid criticism.

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· He had a child during the Red Wedding.

He was away from the fighting with musicians right outside his door. He was understandably distracted.

I agree.

Quote

· He surrendered Riverrun to Jaime.

Probably his worst mood, but even then, he was trying to save his people’s lives. And Riverrun was going to fall, it was only a matter of time.

Riverrun could've withstood years of siege before running out of food, while the Lannisters froze during the Winter, and their food lines were cut off by the BwB.  But Edmure was trying to save the life of his wife, Roslin, and his child, so I won't fault him for this.  I'd have tried to save my child too.

I still think Edmure is incompetent, and far more idiotic than Cat.  Cat would've made a better Lady of Riverrun than Edmure was as Lord.

[corbon]

Silmarien, on 02 April 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

Catelyn is NOT an idiot.  Sigh.  I cannot fathom how you can claim Catelyn is stupid for seizing Tyrion when she tried her very best to NOT be seen, and was afraid she'd end up dead in a ditch after Tyrion recognized her.

Relax. Its a wonderful marker. Once someone comes out with this, you know the quality and/or depth of their thinking and can pretty much ignore the rest of what they whinge about.

[Fire Eater]

Edmure is compassionate towards his small folk, which is a good thing, but with this combined with his passion prove to be his major flaws. He lets his passion cloud his better judgment. He's a capable commander as was shown at the Battle of the Fords, but when it comes to long-term strategy that is where he fails.

I won't fault Edmure for his womanizing seeing as that's common among lordlings like his companion, Patrek Mallister. He is fits the Team America: World Police definition of a dick, acts without thinking things through.

Edited by Fire Eater, 02 April 2012 - 10:54 PM.

[Silmarien]

Fire Eater, on 02 April 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

Edmure is compassionate towards his small folk, but this combined with his passion prove to be his major flaws. He lets his passion cloud his better judgment. He's a capable commander as was shown at the Battle of the Fords, but when it comes to long-term strategy that is where he fails.

I won't fault Edmure for his womanizing seeing as that's common among lordlings like his companion, Patrek Mallister.

The Battle of the Fords was not Edmure's most shining moment, and I'd hardly call ONE victory a great resume especially after being defeated by Jaime (he's got 1 victory and 1 defeat....so 50% win rate? Not awesome).

I do fault Edmure for womanizing because it ISN'T commonplace.  Only Robert Baratheon, Patrek Mallister, and Edmure are known for being womanizers.  And he had a damned super-important captive to be monitoring.  Edmure could womanize all he wants (he wasn't married, whatever, I suppose, except for all those poor bastards), but not while he needs to monitor the North/Riverlands' most important captive.

[Lyanna Stark]

Silmarien, on 02 April 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

I do fault Edmure for womanizing because it ISN'T commonplace.  Only Robert Baratheon, Patrek Mallister, and Edmure are known for being womanizers.  And he had a damned super-important captive to be monitoring.  Edmure could womanize all he wants (he wasn't married, whatever, I suppose, except for all those poor bastards), but not while he needs to monitor the North/Riverlands' most important captive.

Agreed.

You can counter this with commanders who are far more focused on the task at hand and who aren't womanizers: Ned Stark, Stannis Baratheon, Jon Snow. It also seems highly unlikely that Randyll Tarly or Tywin Lannister would be whoring when they had more important things to do. Robert Baratheon, Edmure and Patrek Mallister are described as whoring and it's not seen as a good thing. Not by the narrative and not by the people in Westeros either. It's a character weakness, in indulging in something you shouldn't be doing and of questionable morality (since I doubt the Fath of the Seven is all to keen on whoring, nor is good king Stannis <3 )
I might also add that two men often held up as good moral role models: Ned Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen, did not spend time whoring. Neither for that matter does Jaime Lannister, which is pretty clearly presented as a positive trait.

Basically, as always in these situations, it boils down to: What would Randyll Tarly do?


@ Jaehaerys Sand

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· He messed up Robb’s plan to trap Tywin in the west.

Again, I don’t see how this is Edmure’s fault. Robb should have explained his plans better before heading west, and honestly, I don’t think Robb’s plan was that good anyway. Tywin’s troops were trying to cross a river under heavy archer fire, then fight up an incline. I don’t care what hill the Blackfish found, it wasn’t better land than what Edmure had.

Edmure should have done what he was bloody well told. Can you imagine Randyll Tarly accepting one of his commanders to go off galivanting and doing something he should not have done? No. Randyll Tarly would have had him hanged for that. Stannis would most likely have done the same. Stannis and Randyll Tarly are highly diciplined soilders and commanders and generally thought of as the best ones in Westeros.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 03 April 2012 - 03:45 AM.

[apt54]

To all Robb fanboys/girls

"Robb told me to hold Riverrun and GUARD HIS REAR"

Edmure Tully to Cat Stark, Clash of Kings, upon Cat's return from south

The king who lost the north failed to communicate his plans accurately. Get over it.

Edited by apt54, 03 April 2012 - 03:27 AM.

[David Selig]

Lyanna Stark, on 03 April 2012 - 02:08 AM, said:

Edmure should have done what he was bloody well told.

But he did exactly that. He was told "Hold Riverrun" and guess what - he did.

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I do fault Edmure for womanizing because it ISN'T commonplace. Only Robert Baratheon, Patrek Mallister, and Edmure are known for being womanizers. And he had a damned super-important captive to be monitoring. Edmure could womanize all he wants (he wasn't married, whatever, I suppose, except for all those poor bastards), but not while he needs to monitor the North/Riverlands' most important captive.

WTH? There was a whole garrison at Riverrun guarding Jaime, it makes no sense that Edmure has to make that his job 24/7 and was allowed no rest.

[Jaehaerys Sand]

corbon, on 02 April 2012 - 09:13 PM, said:

Relax. Its a wonderful marker. Once someone comes out with this, you know the quality and/or depth of their thinking and can pretty much ignore the rest of what they whinge about.

Guys, I know you like Catelyn, but that doesn't make capturing Tyrion/releasing Jaime a good idea. They were two of the stupidest decisions in the books.

[SeanF]

Edmure's certainly not an idiot.  He's rather too good-natured to be a successful lord in Westeros, however.

WRT his minor victory over Tywin, he can hardly be faulted for going on the offensive, because neither Robb nor Brynden had shared their plans with him.  One would generally think very poorly of a military commander who failed to take the opportunity to beat an opponent, simply because he hadn't been ordered to fight that opponent.  Had Robb actually told him that he wanted to lure Tywin into following him, then he'd have been justified in criticisng Edmure, but he didn't.

One of the least pleasant features of Brynden, Catelyn, and Robb is that they all treat Edmure like dog shit, despite the fact that he's the heir to Riverrun.