22 replies to this topic

[RSasoiaf]

Seriously...this is now a question for me.

Not only we did not get to see any Tully or Riverrun, it seems at the moment that Riverrun was deleted from Westeros and Robb is already going somewhere else that no one cares to say.

It also puzzles me that they say he has won 3 battles now. Really? I want to know how, when, where and against which enemy. What is really the current situation on the Riverlands, West and with Tywin? Why is Robb somewhere out camping and not using some castle? Should he not be liberating castles left and right and getting more men behind him by doing so? What is he doing?

I suppose we can hope that some scene with Tywin will give us some light over this issue. But for the time being....it´s totally messed up. It´s like if Robb is out on some wastelands where it´s allways dark and foggy......did he got lost on his way to Avalon?

I already spotted something going a bit wrong with Robb´s plot when they decided to mess with the book strategy....but now they dont even try to explain it anymore. It´s just...hey, he is "THE KING IN THE NORTH", even if we dont really know what they mean by North and even if it seems he is nothing more then Lord of Winterfell for the time being.

Well....we can only hope they send him West really fast so he can get to his love and we then get distracted by some nice face Because apparently, they dont like the source material about Robb but still do not care to really write something else that could fit into the story.

[Frey Pie]

Ya i dunno where the3battles happened-unless its the whispering woods,then liberating Riverrun and routing all3camps.I would assume hes gunna have to leave Jaime behind somewhere before heading west.And i hope theyll play his smart card-as in send peace banners and offers to KL and Tywin,secretly attack his home and so keep him off balance

[NW Deserter]

I think he's in the Westerlands already.

[Chelly]

Yeah, I have no idea, but its only been 1 episode and I'm sure it will be explained at some point the next episode.

[NW Deserter]

Well if you watch the episode on HBO Go with the interactive features turned on, when it goes to Robb's camp there's a snippet about the Westerlands that shows up.

[Francois Clegane]

I'm guessing he's somewhere between Winterfell and Riverrun...On a serious note, they seem to have missed a bit out here, like they did in Series one with the Battle at Whispering Wood (Which I would have loved to see). He's creeping closer towards Riverrun, and I'm guessing the only time we'll get to see him fight is when he reaches that destination!

[sarah.jenice]

I haven't heard about casting, but has Edmure Tully been added to the show? I'm not sure how they are going to handle Catelyn's story line without Riverrun, but I guess it could be deleted if needed and everything could unfold from various camps.

After Robb said that he doesn't trust Jamie being anywhere but with him, I don't see how he can then go back and leave him at Riverrun.

It makes it seem even more like they are not going to go to Riverrun because Robb only declared independence for the North. I know we've had many book talks about how much easier it would have been if he only had the North to worry about, but I am sure the show will pull it off.

[Vuron]

Battles won don't have to mean major battles.  It is quite possible that he's travelling and liberating holdfasts and keeps which are too small to house all the men.  We've seen a command tent, but haven't seen any detail of location.  I always found it odd in the books that there we didn't hear about many minor scurmishes and that every fight turned into a major battle.

[White Harbors Wrath]

I've seen sword fights before, no need to see Robb swinging a sword to believe he was in a battle.

What battles you say? If they said "He won the Battle of Hulabaloo Ford a fortnight ago" do you think anyone would remember or care what the battle was named 3 seconds afterwards?

They have to operate w/n a budget, they're already cutting enough to fit w/n those time/money constraints...why would anyone want superfluous scenes added in?

They can't fit the Tully's in as it is...what else would they have cut if they added in battle scenes that don't need to be illustrated. Sure...chop Ros, there are things that can be cut...but they're obviously infatuated w/ her so why add even more fluff.

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

Keep it simple. No need to give us large sprawling maps of army movements and so on. That's what the books are for. For the show, it's important that a) he's winning (battles) and that he's keeping Jaime close. Jaime even asks (exposition fairy) why he's taking him with him and not leaving him in one of the holdfasts. After all, this war can be boiled down to Robb is in the Westerlands + Tywin is his enemy, but cut off and having to face Renly. All the rest is better saved up for enticing images and storylines (instead of war councils - we already had three different ones in the first episode...). The Tullys and Riverrun haven't been cut from the show, they are visible in the viewers guide online and are constantly mentioned, we will get to see them (some of them) in Season 3, that's for sure. For now, let's concentrate on the characters already here.

To answer the opening question: Robb is somewhere in the Westerlands/Riverlands at war. That's all we need to know.

[RSasoiaf]

Vuron, on 04 April 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

Battles won don't have to mean major battles.  It is quite possible that he's travelling and liberating holdfasts and keeps which are too small to house all the men.  We've seen a command tent, but haven't seen any detail of location.  I always found it odd in the books that there we didn't hear about many minor scurmishes and that every fight turned into a major battle.

If they were not major battles, then what are the Lannisters afraid off??? You see, both Tywin and Tyrion have been saying that Robb is winning the war. How can he if so far he just runs away from major battles??? You see, for him to be winning, he has to get is initial odds quite better because if you remember he was outnumbered to start with.

In the book, WW was a skirmish that becomes important just for the fact that they managed to capture the enemy´s leader. Other skirmishes were not relevant enough that anyone would care to talk about them. It´s war, you only remember and tlak about major battles. It is obvious there are skirmishes and other stuff going on. There are also lots of small encounters around Harrenhall that we get to listen about just because Arya is there as a POV. It is quite clear in the books that war is not just about major battles, just that the major battles are the ones that get accounts from big POV´s because they were.....major.

[RSasoiaf]

White Harbors Wrath, on 04 April 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

I've seen sword fights before, no need to see Robb swinging a sword to believe he was in a battle.

What battles you say? If they said "He won the Battle of Hulabaloo Ford a fortnight ago" do you think anyone would remember or care what the battle was named 3 seconds afterwards?

They have to operate w/n a budget, they're already cutting enough to fit w/n those time/money constraints...why would anyone want superfluous scenes added in?

They can't fit the Tully's in as it is...what else would they have cut if they added in battle scenes that don't need to be illustrated. Sure...chop Ros, there are things that can be cut...but they're obviously infatuated w/ her so why add even more fluff.

You do not get my problem!
My problem is that they have to tie in the nots that they choose to incorporate. And so far they did choose to tell us Robb´s initial odds, that Riverrun was under siege and Robb had 2 alternatives which were go face Tywin or go after Riverrun.
Now if they choose to incorporate this, they have to deliver and tell what happened. I dont need a battle, I dont need swordfights....I need to know where did those 30.000 men besieging Riverrun go. Did he beat them already? Or did he just captured their leader. And if he did beat them, why is it that no one talks about it and no one gives a word about him liberating Riverrun?

You know, you dont even need to cast the Tullys. You just need some random extra dressed in a cool Tully armour showing up and paying his respects and thank Robb in the name of Lord Edmure Tully. They can then add that Lord Edmure is busy trying to reorganize the Riverlands and that he will like to support Robb when he finds the power to do it. Robb can then aknowledge that he is now king over the riverlands and give a couple orders back through the messenger.

Have this instead of those lords complaining to Brann, then jump straight into Brann on his bed and off to his dreams.....there! Or cut Ros´s lines and replace them with this random Tully extra. Or have Cat and Robb or Theon speak about it.

[Hot Pie Guy]

I'd be willing to bet he's located somewhere between the Wall and Dorne. And you can quote me on that!!

[RSasoiaf]

Peasant Rebel Leader, on 04 April 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

Keep it simple. No need to give us large sprawling maps of army movements and so on. That's what the books are for. For the show, it's important that a) he's winning (battles) and that he's keeping Jaime close. Jaime even asks (exposition fairy) why he's taking him with him and not leaving him in one of the holdfasts. After all, this war can be boiled down to Robb is in the Westerlands + Tywin is his enemy, but cut off and having to face Renly. All the rest is better saved up for enticing images and storylines (instead of war councils - we already had three different ones in the first episode...). The Tullys and Riverrun haven't been cut from the show, they are visible in the viewers guide online and are constantly mentioned, we will get to see them (some of them) in Season 3, that's for sure. For now, let's concentrate on the characters already here.

To answer the opening question: Robb is somewhere in the Westerlands/Riverlands at war. That's all we need to know.

Keep it simple because people are stupid.......I do not like that argument at all, altough I grant it that it may be a very true one. Allas...most people do not really care about details. But, for those who care, the problem is not solved. You are saying to me that my problem is not a problem because most people will not notice it. Fair enough! I do notice......shame on me

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

I never said because people are stupid. I said keep it simple, because an episode is 50 minutes long and television has a different structure of telling a narrative. Long exposition is generally not really a good thing. Just go ask tv viewers what they got from the Littlefinger talks to whores scene and if they got that Cersei was talking about Littlefinger in episode 1 at their encounter. Or let me put it differently, what would you have cut in the episode to allow for more exposition in the robb segment?

The Ros segment is needed as a contrast to the bastard killing, the sex is a contrast/addition to liven up the grim rest of the episode of story and background and you need to set up Ros strongly in Littlefingers corner for further story arcs (I'd guess). The Bran audience serves as a reminder how it is in the North, show Bran reacting and "lashing out", generally show how Bran rules (in contrast to Joffrey) and I'd guess it's not random that the lord in question was from Tallhart Square. Dragonstone felt rushed already and Tyrion is so popular you need to have him.

and maybe they do explain/show Robb's plans next episode , here it was more of a "get everyone back on track" thing. And maybe they have more details on the HBO viewer guide, I haven't looked. Even if it's not and they don't come back to the question, then it was a conscious decision by the showrunners to cut exactely that. The more interesting question for me is what does this change for the other 9 episodes.

[Bayard]

I am guessing the 3 battles are Whispering Wood and the 2 camps of Riverrun... yeah, they completly took out Edmure and Riverrung, I have no problem with that. Of course it's stupid to drag Jaime after them when they will invade the Westerlands, but it's just a TV show . Anyway, I hope they are still in the river lands, and in episode 3 we will see the Golden Tooth, I always wanted to see the direwolf finding the secret path . We know from trailers that there is a battle coming, I'm guessing episode 3 (we will probably see nothing of it, just the preparation). I am hoping this will be the Battle of Oxcross, it will be nice to hear in the show: "we destroyed an entire Lannister army and killed ser Stafford Lannister" . But I am afraid that this has already happened, and we will only see the the siege of The Crag, the castle of the Westerlings, which IMHO, would be stupid!!! I mean, you completly take out the military part of Robb's story and keep only Jeyne?

[Brianne of Brooklyn]

RSasoiaf, on 04 April 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

If they were not major battles, then what are the Lannisters afraid off???

um, the fact there is open rebellion? and an open rebellion that's winning? Regardless of whether we see the battles, Robb Stark is a legitimate threat to the balance of power favoring the Lannisters. The North is winning and they're making their way to King's Landing. They captured Jaime, they're gaining support. And now with two other claimants to the Iron Throne in the form of the Baratheons, the Kingdom is at open war -- and it's precisely because of what Tyrion says to Cersei in the episode and in the trailers -- people hate the Lannisters. And what Joff did to Ned Stark isn't going to be forgotten. The Lannisters started this war and right now they are losing it. Lose the war, lose the power. And where does that leave them? Disgraced and quite possibly, dead. I believe that's something to be afraid of.

[Brianne of Brooklyn]

Bayard, on 05 April 2012 - 07:39 AM, said:

I am guessing the 3 battles are Whispering Wood and the 2 camps of Riverrun... yeah, they completly took out Edmure and Riverrung, I have no problem with that. Of course it's stupid to drag Jaime after them when they will invade the Westerlands, but it's just a TV show . Anyway, I hope they are still in the river lands, and in episode 3 we will see the Golden Tooth, I always wanted to see the direwolf finding the secret path . We know from trailers that there is a battle coming, I'm guessing episode 3 (we will probably see nothing of it, just the preparation). I am hoping this will be the Battle of Oxcross, it will be nice to hear in the show: "we destroyed an entire Lannister army and killed ser Stafford Lannister" . But I am afraid that this has already happened, and we will only see the the siege of The Crag, the castle of the Westerlings, which IMHO, would be stupid!!! I mean, you completly take out the military part of Robb's story and keep only Jeyne?

I think we'll see one of Robb's battles and I'm hoping it's Oxcross, but while it would be nice to see Robb's military precision and wins, I think because of the constraints of the books placed on the character (he isn't a POV character and is only seen through Cat's eyes -- who isn't in battle), the producers/writers have to flesh his character out more and endear him to the audience. Now, granted, compared to Joff and what we've seen of Stannis and Renly, Robb Stark hands down is the more likable king -- and he doesn't even want the Iron Throne. He just wants to go back to Winterfell.

However because of Robb's storylines in later books (particularly with Jeyne), the producers have to show it now -- otherwise, keeping his storyline strictly in line with the POVs, the larger lay audience of the show won't understand why Robb does what he does if Jeyne suddenly pops up for a few episodes in Season 3. You have to take some liberties, flesh out both characters, show the evolution of choices if you really want to have a lasting impression on the eventual outcome.

Sorry if this paragraph was very vague; trying to be as non-specific and non spoiler-y as possible.

[Envie]

Peasant Rebel Leader, on 04 April 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

Keep it simple. No need to give us large sprawling maps of army movements and so on. That's what the books are for. For the show, it's important that a) he's winning (battles) and that he's keeping Jaime close. Jaime even asks (exposition fairy) why he's taking him with him and not leaving him in one of the holdfasts. After all, this war can be boiled down to Robb is in the Westerlands + Tywin is his enemy, but cut off and having to face Renly. All the rest is better saved up for enticing images and storylines (instead of war councils - we already had three different ones in the first episode...). The Tullys and Riverrun haven't been cut from the show, they are visible in the viewers guide online and are constantly mentioned, we will get to see them (some of them) in Season 3, that's for sure. For now, let's concentrate on the characters already here.

To answer the opening question: Robb is somewhere in the Westerlands/Riverlands at war. That's all we need to know.

Well said. I agree with all your points.

There's no need to add Riverrun until later since they are abbreviating all the battles. I do think its fine to just say there are 'three battles won' and leave it at that. Production costs for large battle scenes are some of the worst because of all the extras and costumes and time, etc. so it does not surprise me HBO is going to cut a lot of that out.

The fact that Robb and his host are moving steadily southward is really enough for anyone watching to understand that the battle map is shifting and new armies are soon to come into play (Renly, Stannis, etc).

[RSasoiaf]

Envie, on 07 April 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

Well said. I agree with all your points.

There's no need to add Riverrun until later since they are abbreviating all the battles. I do think its fine to just say there are 'three battles won' and leave it at that. Production costs for large battle scenes are some of the worst because of all the extras and costumes and time, etc. so it does not surprise me HBO is going to cut a lot of that out.

The fact that Robb and his host are moving steadily southward is really enough for anyone watching to understand that the battle map is shifting and new armies are soon to come into play (Renly, Stannis, etc).

I will add something once again:

I have no problem if they cut things. I have no problem if they change things. I hape problems when they do not make things flow.

Now that said, if they wanted to cut Riverrun thus far, then fine! That would have been fine and a kind of decision that I do understand. But, and this is the but, to have things really get in place, if they still want Robb to capture Jaime, they need to do one of 3 things:
a) do not mention that Jaime is having a nice run on the riverlands and currently besieging Riverrun (which they did mention last season)
send Jaime somewhere else before he gets captured therefore leaving Riverrun still under siege
c) explain that Robb did lift the siege but had to move on and the riverlords stayed behind


They can still go for c) and I hope they will.