77 replies to this topic

[turdle]

Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, on 06 April 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

Not only Ned Stark, but all of the highborn involved in the game, IIRC. I think it was genius on HBO's part to enable people to see into Littlefinger's head.  TV's doesn't have the luxury of using small details, like books do, therefore they have to show people what's going on in detail. I was one of the people who watched the show before I discovered the books, so Ros' interactions with Greyjoy, Baelish and Pycell gave me in depth information on those characters and personalities needed to understand the game. I don't have anything against the sex scene, he was training the women who are to service the more wealthy clientele who patron his businesses.  He runs an upscale business, therefore, his workers must live up to that requirement.

little finger goes into detail about the story about how he wanted some girl (it's already been established that LF loves cat), and that she was basically stolen from her by someone from the north. who could that be? then he says what he learned from that, was that he wouldn't fight them, he'd fuck them. slightly later in that episode, we learn that ned desperately need LF's help. i mean come on, how much more obvious could they have made LF's betrayel?  if they had left that last line out it would be a completely different story.

you have more information about theon, and pycelle by the end of season 1 than people who read the complete first book.  let me be clear, i like the show, i think they do a good job in general.  but quite frankly it strikes me that, because the producers of the series have access to all this information about future events, they don't seem able to sit on it until it has the most impact.  they pluck the fruit before it has fully ripened.

let me give you another example. one of the most loved non-book scenes.  the scene where robert and cercei are taling about danaryis.  the scene itself, i think is fine, and i don't have a problem with anything they say. but the very fact that this scene exists undermines the tension of a later scene. in the book, ned resigns as the hand and robert is furious, ned gets attacked by jaime in the streets, and the next time we see robert, he's with cersei at neds bedside. in the book, we have no idea where roberts head is. we don't know if robert is still about ready to put neds head on a spike or what.  on the tv show, between the time when ned resigns, and jaime attacks ned, we get this lovely scene with robert and cercei interacting.  we see robert has calmed down, we see he is rational and by the end, we even see he's quite saddened after discussing his love for neds sister.

and now, how shocking is it going to be

Spoiler

when tyrion finds pycelle with a whore, or when theon betrays those starks who treated him so lovingly during season 1?

[Joe Scallywag]

Something amusing I noticed wich you will not know 'til you see episode 2

Spoiler

The young woman with Ros is the captain's daughter Theon is banging on his way to the Iron Islands lol

[HyacinthGirl]

LorsEdrick, on 04 April 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

I believe Ros might be a combination of several of the Book characters; like Jeyne Poole and the madame of the Brothel that protects Shae (cant remember her name). Otherwise, why create a character that wasnt even in the novel? Just my opinion.

I still think she'll replace Alayaya's character -

Spoiler

and therefore be mistaken for Shae, beaten, etc. Yeah, there are holes in this theory because it would mess up the Tyrion/Varys dynamic (as Ros is LF's), but....

Then they don't really need to introduce a ton of new whores. I don't like her much but if that's her purpose I'll be ok with it.

Edited by HyacinthGirl, 07 April 2012 - 07:18 AM.

[Dracarya]

Joe Scallywag, on 07 April 2012 - 06:37 AM, said:

Something amusing I noticed wich you will not know 'til you see episode 2

Spoiler

The young woman with Ros is the captain's daughter Theon is banging on his way to the Iron Islands lol

Spoiler

Really? I didn't clock that, and I've seen episode 2. How does that make sense? Must rewatch!

I dislike Ros. That scene from season 1 was just Like I've said before, I'm no prude, despite these scenes being a bit too much IMHO, but I feel that an adaptation of these books don't need sexing up in order to bring in viewers. The sex scenes are simply ridiculous - I like some things to be left to the imagination. It seems to be getting worse in season 2, but we'll see.

Edit:

Spoiler

If Ros does take Alayaya's place, that's cool, it gives her a purpose, and means she won't be around forever, but there's still no need for all the damn sex.

Edited by Fire&Blood, 07 April 2012 - 09:07 AM.

[Envie]

HyacinthGirl, on 07 April 2012 - 07:17 AM, said:

I still think she'll replace Alayaya's character -

Spoiler

and therefore be mistaken for Shae, beaten, etc. Yeah, there are holes in this theory because it would mess up the Tyrion/Varys dynamic (as Ros is LF's), but....

Then they don't really need to introduce a ton of new whores. I don't like her much but if that's her purpose I'll be ok with it.

This is exactly what I think may happen with Ros as well. A lot of people didn't like the addition of a character that wasn't in the book. But if her purpose is to replace the Alayaya story arc, it's actually a brilliant change on the producer's part because Ros has played dual role in filling the audience in on some behind the scenes stuff with Tyrion, Littlefinger, Theon, Pycelle and then becomes a target of the Lannister mess later on. This gives the viewers plenty of time to identify with the character, even become fond of her if they like her - which of course helps the drama all the more. Bringing in Chataya and Alayaya in second season, when they play a smaller part in the bigger story doesn't make nearly as much sense from a screenplay point of view.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

turdle, on 06 April 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

little finger goes into detail about the story about how he wanted some girl (it's already been established that LF loves cat), and that she was basically stolen from her by someone from the north. who could that be? then he says what he learned from that, was that he wouldn't fight them, he'd fuck them. slightly later in that episode, we learn that ned desperately need LF's help. i mean come on, how much more obvious could they have made LF's betrayel?  if they had left that last line out it would be a completely different story.

you have more information about theon, and pycelle by the end of season 1 than people who read the complete first book.  let me be clear, i like the show, i think they do a good job in general.  but quite frankly it strikes me that, because the producers of the series have access to all this information about future events, they don't seem able to sit on it until it has the most impact.  they pluck the fruit before it has fully ripened.

let me give you another example. one of the most loved non-book scenes.  the scene where robert and cercei are taling about danaryis.  the scene itself, i think is fine, and i don't have a problem with anything they say. but the very fact that this scene exists undermines the tension of a later scene. in the book, ned resigns as the hand and robert is furious, ned gets attacked by jaime in the streets, and the next time we see robert, he's with cersei at neds bedside. in the book, we have no idea where roberts head is. we don't know if robert is still about ready to put neds head on a spike or what.  on the tv show, between the time when ned resigns, and jaime attacks ned, we get this lovely scene with robert and cercei interacting.  we see robert has calmed down, we see he is rational and by the end, we even see he's quite saddened after discussing his love for neds sister.

and now, how shocking is it going to be

Spoiler

when tyrion finds pycelle with a whore, or when theon betrays those starks who treated him so lovingly during season 1?

It's TV, hello. They have to tell the story with the most impact in 10 episodes.

[turdle]

Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, on 07 April 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

It's TV, hello. They have to tell the story with the most impact in 10 episodes.

did you read what i wrote?  my complaint is that they put too much in. and they have REDUCED the impact that these specific events will have by giving TOO MUCH information ahead of time. the way they are setting these things up, there is LESS impact and it has nothing to do with this being TV and everything to do with TMI. Little Finger is my favorite character in the book because he is grey, because you don't know what he's going to do until he does it.  on TV, because of his sexposition, they spell out his betrayel very plainly ahead of time. they didn't need to do that, they should not have done that.

[Joe Scallywag]

Fire&Blood, on 07 April 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

Spoiler

Really? I didn't clock that, and I've seen episode 2. How does that make sense? Must rewatch!

Spoiler

I'm assuming this is one of those cases where the storytelling isn't linear, this tiny detail of her being so scared her father will call her a whore etc and wants Theon to bring her for a saltwife makes the Ros scene funny as hell

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

turdle, on 07 April 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

did you read what i wrote?  my complaint is that they put too much in. and they have REDUCED the impact that these specific events will have by giving TOO MUCH information ahead of time. the way they are setting these things up, there is LESS impact and it has nothing to do with this being TV and everything to do with TMI. Little Finger is my favorite character in the book because he is grey, because you don't know what he's going to do until he does it.  on TV, because of his sexposition, they spell out his betrayel very plainly ahead of time. they didn't need to do that, they should not have done that.

Yes, I read what you wrote. They HAVE to give information for in order for the non-readers to understand whats going on. It's very easy for those of us who have read all of the books to say what they should and should not have revealed. The fact of the matter is that they only have 10 episodes, at 53 to 54 minutes each, in order to explain a 1000+ paged book.

Edited by Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, 07 April 2012 - 06:30 PM.

[turdle]

Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, on 07 April 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

Yes, I read what you wrote. They HAVE to give information for in order for the non-readers to understand whats going on. It's very easy for those of us who have read all of the books to say what they should and should not have revealed. The fact of the matter is that they only have 10 episodes, 53 to 54 minutes to explain a 1000+ paged book.

and yet they chose to go beyond the book.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

turdle, on 07 April 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

and yet they chose to go beyond the book.

What would be the point of watching a show if it were identical to the book? Name one TV or movie adaptation that is verbatim to its book? You cannot. To name a few that were the closest to the book stories, but with added flair for the viewing audience were, Stephen King's, Misery, Stephen King's teleplay of The Stand and Michael Crichton's, The Rising Sun. GoT is doing an excellent job of reciting GRRM's story, while making the series appealing and comprehensible to "viewers".

Edited by Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, 07 April 2012 - 06:53 PM.

[turdle]

Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, on 07 April 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

What would be the point of watching a show if it were identical to the book? Name one TV or movie adaptation that is verbatim to its book?

your point was that they only have so much time to cover the book right?  yet in each case, LF, theon, and pycelle, they are all outside the scope of the first book, which means that they are cramming even more into season 1 than they need to to cover the story.  BEYOND that, what i'm saying, is that the SPECIFIC things that they have chosen to show lessen the impact of future events. i don't need the show to be verbatim, i thought the scene where drogo fights his own man and takes his tongue out was awesome.  and there have been a number of other scenes which are outside the scope of the book that i think are also fine. but unfortunately, in my opinion, the scenes with ros are almost exclusively a detriment to the larger story.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

turdle, on 07 April 2012 - 06:55 PM, said:

your point was that they only have so much time to cover the book right?  yet in each case, LF, theon, and pycelle, they are all outside the scope of the first book, which means that they are cramming even more into season 1 than they need to to cover the story.  BEYOND that, what i'm saying, is that the SPECIFIC things that they have chosen to show lessen the impact of future events. i don't need the show to be verbatim, i thought the scene where drogo fights his own man and takes his tongue out was awesome.  and there have been a number of other scenes which are outside the scope of the book that i think are also fine. but unfortunately, in my opinion, the scenes with ros are almost exclusively a detriment to the larger story.

If you have NEVER read the books there is NOTHING to EXPECT.

[Ran]

Plenty of great shows have been capable of the slow reveal. Just because the medium is different doesn't mean that suddenly everything has to be hammered over people's heads. I do think at times David and Dan err on the side of doubting the audience's ability to keep up, especially in the first episode.

[turdle]

Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, on 07 April 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

If you have NEVER read the books there is NOTHING to EXPECT.

my girlfriend accurately predicted what theon was going to do in season 2, four episodes into season 1.  do you know why? because we get hammered over the head with theon's "situation" over and over again in season 1.  there is only NOTHING to EXPECT if they aren't blatently blazing a path in a specific direction. and unfortunately, they have been.  what if, in season 1, between the time when ned is taken prisoner, and his beheading, they put a scene in the show where joffery tells ros that, no matter what, he's going to lop off eddards melon.   one of the reasons the POV style works so well in the books, is that we don't have all the information.  on so many bits of crucial information, we're left in the dark because our characters are left in the dark... until the axe falls.

[Tywin's bastard]

As usual it's funny to see that there are people that think the show makes it way too hard for new viewers to understand things, as well as people that think the show is patronizing the viewers.

[turdle]

Tywin, on 07 April 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

As usual it's funny to see that there are people that think the show makes it way too hard for new viewers to understand things, as well as people that think the show is patronizing the viewers.

for me, i don't think it's a matter of patronizing the viewers, i think it's a matter of playing your hand too soon.  it doesn't matter if the audience knows exactly what theons status is during the first season, i didn't  understand his relationship to the starks until part way through aCoK.  it's fine that they discuss it more on the show, but in virtually every scene he's in, he's being talked down to by some member of the stark household, the guy can't even fuck a whore without being insulted.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

turdle, on 07 April 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

my girlfriend accurately predicted what theon was going to do in season 2, four episodes into season 1.  do you know why? because we get hammered over the head with theon's "situation" over and over again in season 1.  there is only NOTHING to EXPECT if they aren't blatently blazing a path in a specific direction. and unfortunately, they have been.  what if, in season 1, between the time when ned is taken prisoner, and his beheading, they put a scene in the show where joffery tells ros that, no matter what, he's going to lop off eddards melon.   one of the reasons the POV style works so well in the books, is that we don't have all the information.  on so many bits of crucial information, we're left in the dark because our characters are left in the dark... until the axe falls.

I know several other people who were not able put things together and had to read the books or have us give them the background information in order to understand it. People are different. I caught on to season 1 without a problem. other's didn't. Guess what, it doesn't matter. Either you you enjoy the show or you don't. I just don't understand people who find fault with adaptations, when they all say, BASED on... There would be absolutely no point in making a TV show that is exactly like the book. None what so ever.

Edited by Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl, 07 April 2012 - 07:28 PM.

[Tywin's bastard]

turdle, on 07 April 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

for me, i don't think it's a matter of patronizing the viewers, i think it's a matter of playing your hand too soon.  it doesn't matter if the audience knows exactly what theons status is during the first season, i didn't  understand his relationship to the starks until part way through aCoK.  it's fine that they discuss it more on the show, but in virtually every scene he's in, he's being talked down to by some member of the stark household, the guy can't even fuck a whore without being insulted.

My post wasn't directly aimed at you, and therefor not a comment on any specific issue. I've just noticed that the span goes from people thinking that new viewers can't get things, or don't get the information quickly enough, all the way to other people thinking that the show makes things blatantly obvious.

But to actually comment on your point, I think it has a lot to do with how you view shows. I've heard lots of non-readers say that they not only knew what Theon's purpose was but they didn't even understand who he was until the middle of the season. Things vary between individuals, just like some got Jon's mother on the first read while others didn't even notice that there were any clues at all.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Ran, on 07 April 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

Plenty of great shows have been capable of the slow reveal. Just because the medium is different doesn't mean that suddenly everything has to be hammered over people's heads. I do think at times David and Dan err on the side of doubting the audience's ability to keep up, especially in the first episode.

I agree that there are some shows that have a slow reveal. However, you only have to read these boards to and others to see that many people cannot put things together or see the big picture, even when they have read the books.