74 replies to this topic

[Lykos]

Termites an ants are not related, but the termites didn´t even need to be warged, they build "cairns" all on their own.

[lyvyathan]

Fragile Bird, on 04 April 2012 - 01:17 AM, said:

Seriously, the question has crossed my mind too.  No matter how small the tower, 2 people alone surely could not have pulled it down.  While the pyromancers could mix up potent chemicals, Ned wouldn't have any with him.  He must have been joined by more people.  Is it that the group of knights who came with him all had their squires with them, together with a small retinue of soldiers who put up the tents, gathered the fire wood, found the water, cooked the meals etc.?  So there are more people who know what happened at the Tower?

Its possible he or Reed may have located a ton of dragonfire (the Targ King had them in spades) and firewood in the basement of the tower. Does it matter?

[wyman's cook]

Lykos, on 04 April 2012 - 08:04 AM, said:

Termites an ants are not related, but the termites didn´t even need to be warged, they build "cairns" all on their own.

OMG MY THEORY IS WRONG then...

i guess that only leaves us with the Tormund's Member alternative

Edited by wyman's cook, 04 April 2012 - 08:08 AM.

[Rune Targaryen]

probably crying...

[Pomp & Happenstance]

Or if all 9 of them were going at it outside the castle... I could invision a super cool battle scene where this wild skirmish ensues with Lyanna crying "Ned!" from upstairs.... He hears and charges into the tower, moving the battle inside, destroying odd bits of furniture.... debris skattered about, finally they get to either Lyanna's chamber or on top of the castle for the dramatic Ned+Reed vs Dayne finish and fade out on blue flowers to end scene; blah blah...

If 9 awesome warriors went at it and moved inside like that i could see the tower being weakened, also if it had wood instead of stone in parts? Plus, the "tower of joy" brings to mind a nice slender tower thats smooth and elegant, purhaps as a simple watchtower, not an entrenched fortress tower thats all RAAHH-n-stuff.

[Sera dy Relandrant]

This is where it says he broke down the tower:

Quote

Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pul ed the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away.

[Greywolf2375]

Pomp & Happenstance, on 04 April 2012 - 08:58 AM, said:

If 9 awesome warriors went at it and moved inside like that i could see the tower being weakened, also if it had wood instead of stone in parts? Plus, the "tower of joy" brings to mind a nice slender tower thats smooth and elegant, purhaps as a simple watchtower, not an entrenched fortress tower thats all RAAHH-n-stuff.

Maybe if those warriors were Robert with his hammer they would be able to do enough damage to the tower directly to take it down, but since we know at least most of them were using swords - I highly doubt they could do the structural damage needed to weaken the tower or its structure.

[Maginor]

I don't know if it is implied that they did it very fast? They could just have dismantled it stone by stone.

[WinterWarrior]

Lady Daelya Velaryon, on 04 April 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

This is where it says he broke down the tower:

Thank you Lady Daelya Velaryon. I think I need to read GOT for a third time to find the clues that lead to this R+L=J speculation. I did not pick up on that at all.

[Ser NotAppearingInThisBook]

It might not have been just Ned and Howland Reed.  There were eleven people present prior to the battle, so it is likely that they had anywhere from 12 to 20 horses, and that quite a few of them survived and proved quite useful in tearing down a stone building.

[zzzNitro]

Lady Daelya Velaryon, on 04 April 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

This is where it says he broke down the tower:

I wonder if the bloody bricks were bloodied from the inside or the outside... there lies the answer.

[Apple Martini]

I think the simplest explanation is that the "tower" probably just wasn't very big. The Kingsguard are waiting for Ned outside of it when he arrives. Maybe there just isn't room for anyone else in it? I don't think it could be that big or else they'd risk other people seeing it or finding it. I get the impression that Ned only found it because he'd been tipped off (my bet is on Ashara).

I'm actually more interested in its name. Ned says that Rhaegar's the one who called it the Tower of Joy. Seems quite indicative of how Rhaegar viewed what he left there, yes?

[ishmael]

This is part of the story that messes with a number of theories that are held by readers.  I don't imagine that tearing down the tower was a very quick process.  I also don't believe building the cairns was a fast process.  I don't know how two men, even with several horses, would have torn it down quickly even if it was somewhat delapidated, but I also don't think R would have taken L to some ramshackle, ready to fall in tower in the middle of nowhere.  The version of what went on at the ToJ that we know is just too smooth and polished.  It doesn't make a lot of sense.  It also messes up more timelines than it helps.  I'm not sure what exactly went on ( I have some half formed ideas).  What we are told once Ned leaves SE to head to the ToJ until he arrives back at WF does not add up to what many readers imply.

[Hyper]

One obvious answer... That the TOJ fans won't like - Is that Neds recollection of this event was not anywhere near what actually happened. A feverish dream. Not much of it can be taken literally.

[Fragile Bird]

Apple Martini, on 04 April 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

I think the simplest explanation is that the "tower" probably just wasn't very big. The Kingsguard are waiting for Ned outside of it when he arrives. Maybe there just isn't room for anyone else in it? I don't think it could be that big or else they'd risk other people seeing it or finding it. I get the impression that Ned only found it because he'd been tipped off (my bet is on Ashara).

I'm actually more interested in its name. Ned says that Rhaegar's the one who called it the Tower of Joy. Seems quite indicative of how Rhaegar viewed what he left there, yes?

Oh yes, Joy for Rhaegar, and as Ned says, Sorrow for him.

I think it was a watchtower, in view of the fact it was located in the pass between the mountains of Dorne, as I recall.  That would would mean tall, and relatively spartan if it was for the purpose of a lookout.  But I don't think Ned dreamed of the deaths of of 6 friends and three renowned members of the KG.  That happened, and they were buried under cairns.

[Monk Meth-]

I really hope we get a howland Reed POV and he has a flashback to ToJ battle in more detail

[TheMazVolta]

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

From the 'tower long fallen' part, my guess is that its already semi-destroyed.

[kapulani]

Howland Reed has some kind of ability beyond that of ordinary mortals, while not a greenseer.  It is said that he can turn earth to water and water to earth, as in how the islands and castles of his kingdom are known to move around.

I think he might not've been able to, say, turn the ToJ completely to water, but I think he could've damaged the supports such that it collapsed, and then the two could move a few stones to make cairns for the corpses.

[Ser Hippie]

Seeing as the Reeds are often associated with the color green, this discussion leads me to a theory.

#Howland Reed?

[Bayard]

It doesn't matter how big it was, because we aren't told how long it took to take it down. Why assume Ned did it on his own??? He is a lord, he can get man, villagers, soldiers, he has just won the war, everyone will listen to him.... once Jon was taken to safety, he could proceed to do whatever he wanted with that tower and those stones. And I do believe that a fire can do extensive damage to a watch tower.