74 replies to this topic

[Greywolf2375]

Bayard, on 04 April 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

It doesn't matter how big it was, because we aren't told how long it took to take it down. Why assume Ned did it on his own??? He is a lord, he can get man, villagers, soldiers, he has just won the war, everyone will listen to him.... once Jon was taken to safety, he could proceed to do whatever he wanted with that tower and those stones. And I do believe that a fire can do extensive damage to a watch tower.

I highly doubt he went to get anyone - regardless of supporting R+L=J, this was a place he would have wanted almost no one to have knowledge of - he was not going to invite a host of people to come help bury three KG.

[Fragile Bird]

kapulani, on 04 April 2012 - 12:04 PM, said:

Howland Reed has some kind of ability beyond that of ordinary mortals, while not a greenseer.  It is said that he can turn earth to water and water to earth, as in how the islands and castles of his kingdom are known to move around.

I think he might not've been able to, say, turn the ToJ completely to water, but I think he could've damaged the supports such that it collapsed, and then the two could move a few stones to make cairns for the corpses.

Excellent point, I like that thought kapulani.  And, first post!  Welcome to Westeros!

[CrypticWeirwood]

Bayard, on 04 April 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

It doesn't matter how big it was, because we aren't told how long it took to take it down. Why assume Ned did it on his own??? He is a lord, he can get man, villagers, soldiers, he has just won the war, everyone will listen to him.... once Jon was taken to safety, he could proceed to do whatever he wanted with that tower and those stones. And I do believe that a fire can do extensive damage to a watch tower.

There’s that “Jon problem”, again. You have to assume that there could have been no surviving witnesses not sworn to Ned or Lyanna, or word of the babe would have gotten out.

Also, where and with whom could Ned have stashed an unweaned Jon? Now look how far the Tower of Joy is from where we know Ned to have brought Dawn. An unweaned infant could never have survived even that far without a wetnurse, let alone back to Winterfell.  We know that Ser Arthur Dayne was Rhaegar Targaryen’s best friend and most loyal companion, so it is likely that his  Arthur’s sister Ashara was somehow in on it all, too — whatever “it” might be.

I don’t know how just a bunch of titless men could have kept a nursing infant alive for that far. Captive goat? Maybe, but I doubt it.

[ishmael]

Bayard, on 04 April 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

It doesn't matter how big it was, because we aren't told how long it took to take it down. Why assume Ned did it on his own??? He is a lord, he can get man, villagers, soldiers, he has just won the war, everyone will listen to him.... once Jon was taken to safety, he could proceed to do whatever he wanted with that tower and those stones. And I do believe that a fire can do extensive damage to a watch tower.

Ned took all the men he trusted the most with him on the first trip to the ToJ.  He would have had to tear it down and build the cairns before he went to SF.  He returned to WF after he left SF.  The only way he could have gotten around the young babe would be for him to send it on to ST with its wet nurse, and him come after he is finished at the tower.  But this brings up the question of how he knew he would be able to get he baby back once it was inside SF.

[Apple Martini]

Hyper, on 04 April 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

One obvious answer... That the TOJ fans won't like - Is that Neds recollection of this event was not anywhere near what actually happened. A feverish dream. Not much of it can be taken literally.

Some of it has to be of literal narrative value though, or else all of it is suspect, and then why the hell are we even discussing it?

Martin has said that some of it is symbolic, yes. My bet is that the storm of blue rose petals is probably Ned's imagination, as is Lyanna calling her brother by his full name (which actually turns out to be the steward). The basic structure of events — Ned and Co. rode up, fought the Kingsguard, Ned and Howland survived — is probably legit.

CrypticWeirwood, on 04 April 2012 - 02:14 PM, said:

I don’t know how just a bunch of titless men could have kept a nursing infant alive for that far. Captive goat? Maybe, but I doubt it.

Wylla.

I think she was at the Tower, she's the one who delivered Jon and nursed him after Lyanna died.

Edited by Apple Martini, 04 April 2012 - 03:00 PM.

[Prince of the North]

Apple Martini, on 04 April 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

Wylla.

I think she was at the Tower, she's the one who delivered Jon and nursed him after Lyanna died.

Well, I theorize for now that Jon was already gone when Ned and company showed up.  I think Ashara and, possibly, others took Jon (the third Head o' the Dragon) because Ned was near and the 3 KG stayed to fight a sort of rear-guard action.  The only problem for the KG was that they were not victorious and Lyanna lived long enough to tip Ned off as to where Jon was and to secure a promise from him to protect Jon.

It's certainly possible that Wylla was at the ToJ to be a wetnurse to Jon because that was normal among noble women but I just think (for no reason really - just a gut feeling) Ned picked up Jon and Wylla in Starfall and then took ship north.  I think that may be where the whole "fisherman's daughter" story may come from

Also, in terms of pulling down the ToJ, as others have pointed out, I think it was small and in bad shape already.  And, I'm no engineer, but even I know pulling walls outward (especially curved walls as with a round tower) is generally easier than pushing them inward.  I think Ned and Howland could have done it with some ropes and a few of the horses they had.  I also alternatively could easily buy Howland magicking some of the base stones to mud.  That'd bring a tower down pretty fast!

[Apple Martini]

Prince of the North, on 04 April 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

Well, I theorize for now that Jon was already gone when Ned and company showed up.  I think Ashara and, possibly, others took Jon (the third Head o' the Dragon) because Ned was near and the 3 KG stayed to fight a sort of rear-guard action.  The only problem for the KG was that they were not victorious and Lyanna lived long enough to tip Ned off as to where Jon was and to secure a promise from him to protect Jon.

It's certainly possible that Wylla was at the ToJ to be a wetnurse to Jon because that was normal among noble women but I just think (for no reason really - just a gut feeling) Ned picked up Jon and Wylla in Starfall and then took ship north.  I think that may be where the whole "fisherman's daughter" story may come from

A few things that don't add up here.

1. The Kingsguard would have gone with Jon if he had already been moved. Going on the R+L=J theory, he's the reason they're there at the Tower at all. One or two might have stayed behind to "bring up the rear" (which I don't believe either), but at least one would have gone on to Starfall with him if they had moved him. The fact that they're still at the Tower — all three of them — when Ned arrives means that Jon himself was still there, too.

2. Someone had to have been there to deliver the baby and act as a backup wet nurse in case Lyanna died (which she did). Wylla makes the most sense; she's "in on it" herself, given that she's corroborated Ned's cover story.

3. They found Ned in Lyanna's room. By this time, the Kingsguard and Ned's five other companions are already dead and Ned is in Lyanna's room. They is plural (and yes I know it can be used [incorrectly] in singular form, but if it was meant to be singular, Martin could've just said "Reed found him," given that we already know Howland was there). So who else would have been there besides Howland to find Ned in Lyanna's room? The wet nurse/midwife maybe?

4. No indication that Wylla ever went up north with Jon when Ned sent him back to Winterfell. It seems like she went back to Starfall when Ned took Dawn back and caught a ship, and Ned installed a different wet nurse at Winterfell for Jon. The fisherman's daughter story that Davos hears is a 100% gossipy red herring.

Edited by Apple Martini, 04 April 2012 - 03:49 PM.

[lyvyathan]

Prince of the North, on 04 April 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

Also, in terms of pulling down the ToJ, as others have pointed out, I think it was small and in bad shape already.  And, I'm no engineer, but even I know pulling walls outward (especially curved walls as with a round tower) is generally easier than pushing them inward.  I think Ned and Howland could have done it with some ropes and a few of the horses they had.  I also alternatively could easily buy Howland magicking some of the base stones to mud.  That'd bring a tower down pretty fast!

The tower doesn't really have to be in bad shape. If you have enough firewood and combustable material present you could burn the whole world down. Look at the Two Towers in NY City. It took only a few hours to turn them into rubble and ash.

Even if there was no dragonfire (dynamite) stashed in the basement somewhere - there would usually be a couple of tons of firewood stacked somewhere for everyday heating and cooking. I'm living in a modern house and I've got a ton of firewood stacked in my garage for my fireplace - and gasoline for my mower and garden equipment nearby. If I wanted to burn the whole place down its dead easy.

Medieval towers also usually have a wooden frame to act as the skeleton brace of the building structure - if you start a fire with the (presumed) firewood in the cellar kitchen downstairs in the basement - it won't take too long to get a roaring inferno going. The tower structure would act as a chimney too - once the wooden frame starts burning up, the tower's bluestone block walls will start shifting and eventually the whole edifice will start crumbling down.

Edited by lyvyathan, 05 April 2012 - 11:10 AM.

[lyvyathan]

Apple Martini, on 04 April 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

4. No indication that Wylla ever went up north with Jon when Ned sent him back to Winterfell. It seems like she went back to Starfall when Ned took Dawn back and caught a ship, and Ned installed a different wet nurse at Winterfell for Jon. The fisherman's daughter story that Davos hears is a 100% gossipy red herring.

I agree with what you say - but the fisherman's daughter doesn't have to be a red herring, maybe it could be a mackerel or tuna fish.

Or it could simply be a girl who is dragged along the journey to provide milk for the baby. Doesn't have to be just Wylla.

[A Shadow]

Bayard, on 04 April 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

It doesn't matter how big it was, because we aren't told how long it took to take it down. Why assume Ned did it on his own??? He is a lord, he can get man, villagers, soldiers, he has just won the war, everyone will listen to him.... once Jon was taken to safety, he could proceed to do whatever he wanted with that tower and those stones. And I do believe that a fire can do extensive damage to a watch tower.

Why would Ned need to take it down at all? To end it all there, to burry all the traces of what happened.
But if he was good with riding around, fetching people and involving them, then why not send the bodies of the fallen to their families? Why draw unwanted attention?

But the question is really great. Even if he had a hundred horses, it would have been dangerous, because the horses would have brought that tower on themselves and all the scattering stones would make it impossible to be safe. Fire seems plausible explanation, but Ned gives no hint at it at all. Maybe Howland really can do things?

[Pomp & Happenstance]

I do believe that there would have been more than just 3 Kingsguard and Lyanna at the ToJ.

If Rhaegar was going through the trouble of protecting his unborn son with 3 of his 7 personal KG, then surely he would provide assistance to bring him into this world as well... I presume that not only would a wet nurse be with her, but also a servant, and perhaps even a maester, we are talking about royalty after all...

This was something that I hadn't thought of before. I'll have to read through the section again to see if I can catch any other foreshadowing......because eventually GrrM will tell us.

[Ser Lepus]

There was probably a village or hamlet close to it, that provided them with food and services; otherwise it would be a pain in the ass to keep the larder stoked with meat, bread, etc.

Once the deed was done, Ned probably buried the bodies or boiled them to take the bones with him, destroyed or burned any dangerous proof he didn´t wanted to be found and told the peasants to tear down the TOJ in the name of the new king (and they obeyed because they figured Ned, who had come and killed half the kingsguard had to be a big cheese)

[Prince of the North]

Apple Martini, on 04 April 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

A few things that don't add up here.

1. The Kingsguard would have gone with Jon if he had already been moved. Going on the R+L=J theory, he's the reason they're there at the Tower at all. One or two might have stayed behind to "bring up the rear" (which I don't believe either), but at least one would have gone on to Starfall with him if they had moved him. The fact that they're still at the Tower — all three of them — when Ned arrives means that Jon himself was still there, too.\

Ah, I agree with everything you've said.  There's still so much we don't know but I'm glad you pointed out the obvious holes in my flimsy theories because it allows me to "theorize" some more

Well, another explanation could be that the 3 KG thought they could defeat the intruders (these are three very confident warriors after all) but they hedged their bet, so to speak, by sending Ashara ahead with the baby just in case.  Either way they could have felt the delaying tactic worthwhile.  If they all had taken off there would have been the very real possibility of being overtaken by Ned and company because they would simply not be able to travel as fast with a newborn.

Also, I agree that Jon is the reason the KG are at the ToJ but I don't believe the fact that Jon is an/the heir to the throne isthe main reason the KG were at the ToJ.  I believe the foremost reason Dayne, at least, was with Rhaegar was his belief in what Rhaegar was trying to accomplish - fulfilling the prophecy.  I think Rhaegar's belief that Jon would be the Third Head of the Dragon was far more important to him and, thus, his "inner circle" (of which Arthur and Ashara Dayne, at least, were members) than the fact that he would be in line for the throne.  Now, as for Whent and Hightower - take your pick.  They could have also been part of Rhaegar's "cult of personality" or they could have been there out of simple loyalty to Rhaegar or Dayne or whatever.  We have some allusion to a schism between Aerys and Rhaegar through his conversation with Jaime about deposing the King.  Could the KG have felt they needed to choose sides?  Also, the KG may very well have not all arrived at the same time.  Maybe one or both of Whent and Hightower showed up later to bring word, etc.?

Another thing that has always puzzled me is, if the KG were at the ToJ only because R+L's baby would be heir to the throne (I'm not saying you said this), how did they know the baby would be a boy?  Or maybe they knew that Rhaegar's first two children were already dead so no matter if R+L's baby were a boy or girl the child would still be heir to the throne?  Ah, what a great mystery   

Apple Martini, on 04 April 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

2. Someone had to have been there to deliver the baby and act as a backup wet nurse in case Lyanna died (which she did). Wylla makes the most sense; she's "in on it" herself, given that she's corroborated Ned's cover story.

Yes, if we assume there was a "back up" wetnurse at the ToJ.  It's a pretty remote outpost and they wanted to maintain as much secrecy as possible, right?  I'm not really disagreeing with you - just pointing out that we have to make some assumptions (but that's fun, right?)  Also, even if Ned didn't pick Wylla up until later she could still be "in on it" and corroborate his story.

Apple Martini, on 04 April 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

3. They found Ned in Lyanna's room. By this time, the Kingsguard and Ned's five other companions are already dead and Ned is in Lyanna's room. They is plural (and yes I know it can be used [incorrectly] in singular form, but if it was meant to be singular, Martin could've just said "Reed found him," given that we already know Howland was there). So who else would have been there besides Howland to find Ned in Lyanna's room? The wet nurse/midwife maybe?

Absolutely.  It was Reed and at least one other person who found Ned.  But could it have simply been some sort of servant, etc.?  I personally rule out that there was a maester there to deliver the baby because I like to think Lyanna probably wouldn't have died then.  But even a maester might not be able to save her depending on just what the birth complication was.

Apple Martini, on 04 April 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

4. No indication that Wylla ever went up north with Jon when Ned sent him back to Winterfell. It seems like she went back to Starfall when Ned took Dawn back and caught a ship, and Ned installed a different wet nurse at Winterfell for Jon. The fisherman's daughter story that Davos hears is a 100% gossipy red herring.

Well, technically, there's no indication that she didn't either.  Although I agree that I don't think she did.  As I said, there's still so much we don't know.  What if Wylla did go to Winterfell but just used a different name while there?  Who would know the difference?  What if Ned sailed back north on the east side of Westeros so as to land at White Harbor and he stopped in the Fingers and got a different wetnurse for Jon there (giving a little grain of truth to the "Fisherman's daughter from the Fingers" story?  What if...   

And, yes, sorry for the horrible thread drift.  It all really leads back to the R+L=J mystery, doesn't it?!

[Prince of the North]

Pomp & Happenstance, on 05 April 2012 - 09:46 AM, said:

I do believe that there would have been more than just 3 Kingsguard and Lyanna at the ToJ.

Absolutely!  They had to be receiving news somehow while at the ToJ.  They had to have supplies - either they brought a bunch with them or, more likely, someone was supplying them regularly.  Also, these are nobles - they probably had a servant or three along.  And, finally, I think we can be reasonably sure that at least a few people knew where Rhaegar was.  After all, Ned had to find out about it somehow.

[Pomp & Happenstance]

My main reason for thinking that way was that (given R+L=J) ... If this was Rhaegars son.... and all this crazy stuff was going down with Roberts Rebellion and so forth.... If Rhaegar were to go through the means of evacuating his secret love, Lyanna, in a last ditch attempt to keep his family safe sending three of the 7 KG with her, surely there would be the accompanying support. Granted that in an emergency situation they might've fled in too much of a hurry to be properly prepared, but still... We can't believe that the short bit of info we learned from Ned is all that there is to know, surely there's more.

As far as some of these crazy "what if" scenarios that people come up with.... If you read the conversation between the KG and Ned you understand that these arn't ordinary soldiers. These are true men, dedicated to their king, (even though he's already dead and they know they will probably die)... fulfilling his dying wish of protecting his lineage. They weren't there to strategize about how to escape or flee further, (lyanna's pregnancy would've eliminated that option).

[Lady Hodor]

Catapults? Gunpowder?

[All For Joffrey]

I always got the impression that he spent some time at Starfall after the TOJ thing happened. He may have enlisted some help there.

[Archmaester Marwin]

Dig under a corner, light a fire, keep fueling it (a watchtower would be well stocked with firewood, especially this one). Watch as the tower collapses.

[Dilshan Muthalib]

as Ned approached the FALLEN tower ....think TOJ was in ruins already

[CrypticWeirwood]

Why did Ned pull down the tower? That’s a lot of effort. What was his secret purpose?