74 replies to this topic

[Jon Flowers]

This may be one of those things that Martin didn't think through entirely and it wasn't caught by editors before publication.  That said, I can still see two possible and even likely explanations.  First, if it is a small watch tower or even a residence (ie. not built to withstand attacks), it is a distinct possibility that structure isn't entirely stone.  Setting fire to such a structure could easily bring it down, leaving enough loose stones laying about to allow for the building of a dozen or so cairns.  The second possibility, not mutually exclusive with the first, is that Ned had more men in the area (I find it very unlikely that he travelled all the way to the Dornish Marches with fewer than ten companions) and they either arrived after the fact, or were summoned by him in order to properly bury the dead.

[Melpomene]

Maybe he enlisted the help of the local Amish?



(I kid)


It does pose an interesting question.

Catapults is a likely guess, but it just seems hard to imagine getting one up there so easily on account that the ToJ was along the mountainside. Medieval style catapults weren't easy dinky little things, afterall.

Workers wouldn't be too hard to imagine; either from his own army or oblivious commoners from nearby. Add that manpower, some pullies, some draft horses etc

Fire seems a bit tedious and long. Again, it was the mountainside, and not far along there were deserts of Dorne. Proper access to plenty of wood and water to settle it down could be very limited, and waiting the fire out mght take a long time.

I can't see the ToJ being THAT debilitated...afterall, it wouldn't make sense to put a high stakes pregnant soon-to-be-in-labour noblewoman in it if the place was about to topple over.

Perhaps Howland Reed does have some special magic sauce afterall. Or for some odd reason Ned did in fact borrow Robert's hammer. Or, they conducted some sort of bomb-like material.

Apple Martini, on 04 April 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

I'm actually more interested in its name. Ned says that Rhaegar's the one who called it the Tower of Joy. Seems quite indicative of how Rhaegar viewed what he left there, yes?

I reckon Rhaegar thought it would be a place of happiness - particularly Lyanna (Assumingly the love of his life) giving birth to his kid, and possibly even a "Prince that was promised" kid, and after the battles he would have returned to be with them. He was so incredibly into that prophecy, wouldn't put it past him to glorify the place and think positively.

Quote

Why did Ned pull down the tower? That’s a lot of effort. What was his secret purpose?

Well, the place was a hugely painful memory for him. A way to clean his own mind, a metaphor against Rhaegar, a symbol of the end of the rebellion, a place that Jon may never witness in case he somehow suddenly decides to look for it. And get rid of any substantial evidence of the time, as much as possible, against anyone who desire to speculate on Rhaegar, his sister, the KG, Jon etc. And with Ned being Ned, he needed something to properly bury the dead.


Probably something Lyanna wished for too.

[ishmael]

Apple Martini, on 04 April 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

4. No indication that Wylla ever went up north with Jon when Ned sent him back to Winterfell. It seems like she went back to Starfall when Ned took Dawn back and caught a ship, and Ned installed a different wet nurse at Winterfell for Jon. The fisherman's daughter story that Davos hears is a 100% gossipy red herring.

I have always been under the impression that Wylla did travel to WF with Ned and did serve as Jon's wet nurse there for a while before heading back to SF.  I will have to re-read the books to see why I formed that opinion.  I believe Cat commented that when she returned to WF Ned, Jon, and the wet nurse were already there.

[Archmaester Marwin]

http://en.wikipedia....t_stone_castles

Section 2.6, use against stone castles.

It's not magic or a plothole, and again, the TOJ would have had wood laid away if it was supposed to be hospitable for cold nights in the mountains of Dorne and held the Crown Prince's consort.

[Silmarien]

I'd guess the "tower" was hastily erected for Lyanna and Rhaegar to esacpe to in the first place.  After all, Rhaegar named it.  Thus, it would have been mostly wooden, with some stones.  But those stones that were there would've been easily dismantled if the tower was made mostly of wood on the interior.

Perhaps the tower was so hastily erected there was no time for proper mortar to be used to hold the stones together.

[ishmael]

CrypticWeirwood, on 05 April 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

Why did Ned pull down the tower? That’s a lot of effort. What was his secret purpose?

He didn't want the place where his sister died to be trampled on by sight-seers and treasure hunters, and if anyone got suspicious about his story, it would be much harder to find without the tower sticking up in the air. He took the most valuable item and returned it to SF.  This removed the temptation for anyone to really want to find it.

[Fragile Bird]

Silmarien, on 05 April 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

I'd guess the "tower" was hastily erected for Lyanna and Rhaegar to esacpe to in the first place.  After all, Rhaegar named it.  Thus, it would have been mostly wooden, with some stones.  But those stones that were there would've been easily dismantled if the tower was made mostly of wood on the interior.

Perhaps the tower was so hastily erected there was no time for proper mortar to be used to hold the stones together.

Somewhere, in the wiki or another ASOAIF site, there is a description of it as a watchtower, which I assume comes from somewhere in the books.  Rhaegar didn't build it, they went there.

Edited by Fragile Bird, 05 April 2012 - 02:42 PM.

[Wun Wun Greyjoy]

ishmael, on 05 April 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

He didn't want the place where his sister died to be trampled on by sight-seers and treasure hunters, and if anyone got suspicious about his story, it would be much harder to find without the tower sticking up in the air. He took the most valuable item and returned it to SF.  This removed the temptation for anyone to really want to find it.

Not to mention pay respect to the brave men who fought and died there. I wouldn't think Ned would feel right leaving the bodies there with out some sort of propper burial/ recognition. He respected everyone there too much.

[Silmarien]

Fragile Bird, on 05 April 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

Somewhere, in the wiki or another ASOAIF site, there is a description of it as a watchtower, which I assume comes from somewhere in the books.  Rhaegar didn't build it, they went there.

Well in any case, it's possible the Watchtower was in need of repairs, making basic weapons usable to bring down the stones.

[IronSuitor]

Quote

I can't see the ToJ being THAT debilitated...afterall, it wouldn't make sense to put a high stakes pregnant soon-to-be-in-labour noblewoman in it if the place was about to topple over.

Rhaegar seems to have not foreseen the fact that running off with the daughter of one of his father's most powerful lords would cause serious problems, so I don't exactly have much faith in his vacation planning abilities.

[Lizaveta Martell]

Imma go with Howland Reed and his magic moving house yoda powers.  Seriously, he's Yoda.

[Summerqueen]

Eight spare war horses, some pack animals, access to a support structure, and some rope says that tower's coming down, even without Howland Reed. There's no reason to think the (probably) lime mortar was all that impregnable, especially if the tower was exposed to extreme temps and already somewhat in disrepair from infrequent maintenance. If there was a shovel around for some selective mining at the base of one of those (probably wooden) supports...doesn't seem too daunting a task for a descendent of Bran the Builder. Dude is Lord of Winterfell. He probably oversaw many home repairs.

[Apple Martini]

ishmael, on 05 April 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

I have always been under the impression that Wylla did travel to WF with Ned and did serve as Jon's wet nurse there for a while before heading back to SF.  I will have to re-read the books to see why I formed that opinion.  I believe Cat commented that when she returned to WF Ned, Jon, and the wet nurse were already there.

Yes, a wet nurse was there. There's no indication or confirmation at all that it was Wylla. Ned could have easily hired another wet nurse in the North.

[Stop Rhaegar HAMMERTIME!]

Summerqueen, on 05 April 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

Eight spare war horses, some pack animals, access to a support structure, and some rope says that tower's coming down, even without Howland Reed. There's no reason to think the (probably) lime mortar was all that impregnable, especially if the tower was exposed to extreme temps and already somewhat in disrepair from infrequent maintenance. If there was a shovel around for some selective mining at the base of one of those (probably wooden) supports...doesn't seem too daunting a task for a descendent of Bran the Builder. Dude is Lord of Winterfell. He probably oversaw many home repairs.

Also he probably had some sort of ram if he was going to get into the tower!

[lyvyathan]

Archmaester Marwin, on 05 April 2012 - 02:15 PM, said:

http://en.wikipedia....t_stone_castles

Section 2.6, use against stone castles.

It's not magic or a plothole, and again, the TOJ would have had wood laid away if it was supposed to be hospitable for cold nights in the mountains of Dorne and held the Crown Prince's consort.

Yeah, I agree!!! Why isn't it obvious to the other posters? All medieval buildings would usually have several tons of firewood for everyday heating and cooking purposes - they had no electricity or gas in those days, so they had to rely upon firewood (or stinky animal manure).

If someone set the firewood store ablaze - the building's wooden structure - floorboards - timber frame - would also ignite. The blockstone bricks would be shifted in the inferno - and without the wood frame would be liable to collapse. The place would come crashing down in no time.

Edited by lyvyathan, 06 April 2012 - 05:33 AM.