54 replies to this topic

[Prince of Dragonstone]

Hear Us Roar, on 05 April 2012 - 12:59 AM, said:

I don't see the people you listed as "Villians".

Not even Ramsay? Surely you jest...

[The hairy bear]

I'm surprised some poeple don't see Melisandre as a villain. She burns people alive, for the Lord of Light's sake!

[Prince of Dragonstone]

The hairy bear, on 05 April 2012 - 03:02 AM, said:

I'm surprised some poeple don't see Melisandre as a villain. She burns people alive, for the Lord of Light's sake!

I don't see her as a villain like Ramsey, Cersei and Littlefinger because, unlike them, there is nowhere in the text that describes her enjoying the burnings. She does it for purely religious reasons, as misguided they are. She takes no pleasure in sacrifice and she doesn't have a malicious personality. She even tried to save Maester Cressen and warned him that it wasn't too late to stop his folly of an assassination attempt. Also don't forget that she has tried to help Jon numerous times in ADwD. Yes, she's fanatical and often wrong, but that doesn't make her evil. Just dangerously misguided.

[chris999]

Silmarien, on 04 April 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

I do agree with this statement.  I think Mel is trying to do what is right - even if it's morally wrong.  I just wanted to answer his whole list.

Silmarien, on 04 April 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

I do agree with this statement.  I think Mel is trying to do what is right - even if it's morally wrong.  I just wanted to answer his whole list.

I still dont see why people cant figure out that she, and probably her god too, are evil.

She is deceptive about who she is, she has some kind of glamour control over Stannis, she kills children and burns people alive, and nobody knows what exactly her motives are.

I am a believer in "heresy", and the main reason that I even think that the Others might not be 'evil' is because they are opposed to the Red God.

The next book will persuade everyone.

Edited by chris999, 05 April 2012 - 04:40 AM.

[The hairy bear]

Prince of Dragonstone, on 05 April 2012 - 03:21 AM, said:

I don't see her as a villain like Ramsey, Cersei and Littlefinger because, unlike them, there is nowhere in the text that describes her enjoying the burnings. She does it for purely religious reasons, as misguided they are.

Well, Melisandre kills people for the glory of her god, Cersei does it for the glory of her House. Just different priorities.

I agree that Melisandre is not as evil as Ramsay, but still she burned alive Guncer Sunglass and Allester Florent. And was willing to burn a boy alive to acomplish a prophecy even she wasn't sure about.  The fact that Westeros has many worse people, doesnt make her less a villain in my book.

[chris999]

The hairy bear, on 05 April 2012 - 05:25 AM, said:

Well, Melisandre kills people for the glory of her god, Cersei does it for the glory of her House. Just different priorities.

I agree that Melisandre is not as evil as Ramsay, but still she burned alive Guncer Sunglass and Allester Florent. And was willing to burn a boy alive to acomplish a prophecy even she wasn't sure about.  The fact that Westeros has many worse people, doesnt make her less a villain in my book.

I agree, except I will go as far as to say that I think that Melissandre is actually going to turn out to be the biggest "villain" in the book. The main antagonist.

That being said, I think that the coming war is going to have "evil' characters on both sides of the confrontation. I think that GRRM is going to leave it up to the reader who the "evil" side is going to be. Some readers are going to want to side with the Starks, which means that Mel is going to be very evil (Starks are Ice, and Mel id Fire) and, at the same time, some readers are going to identify with the "Fire" side, and will want Dany and her dragons and the Red Priests to win the war.

Evil characters on both sides, and Mel is one of them.

[Jon Flowers]

The most in need of a quick death is definately Ramsay Bolton.  Clearly some sort of torture, preferably involving flaying would be appropriate maybe after a rousing hunt.  Really though, I would prefer a First Men style beheading with the judgement announced aloud and the deed done by the judge, whoever ends up as the lord of Winterfell.  I think that the only way to remove the threat of him raping, torturing and murdering anyone else is to execute him and I think that having his deeds publicly declared as crimes (they are thus far being swept under the rug completely) would form the basis for undoing his theft of the Hornwood lands in particular and help espose the Boltons for supporting him as well.  The more "legal" and the more public the judgement and execution, the better it would be.  I won't say that it would make the loss of all of his victims any less painful, but it would help bring meaning to their deaths if their murders were used as the basis for undoing all of Ramsay's "accomplishments".

[Ser Amoc]

Does anyone else find this topic ironic? I mean, regardless of a character's alignment, thinking of ways to kill them is innately villainous.

BondJamesBond, on 04 April 2012 - 12:52 AM, said:

Varys:  come on, he killed sir kevan, the one person who just wanted to bring order and who put Cersei in her place!

Kevan is like the Joe Paterno of this series. He just sat around for most of his life watching his brother and his children royally fuck up the realm. Now that it's all to shit and out in the open, he wants to be noble?

It's way to early to presume Varys is evil. If he's on your list, then Littlefinger should be too.

[Ser Osis of Liver]

Remember, too, that it's GRRM's intention to write most characters as morally ambiguous (with the exception of Now-Headless Ned and Ramsay, his polar opposite and the Mountain, who's just plain evil as well). Even king little-shit; while he truly is a sociopath, he's also acting to some degree in defense of his house and violently/irrationally responding to perceived threats.

Now with that said, I don't see Ser Illyn as evil, and frankly if a land requires a royal executioner, I'd rather it be someone who's skilled at his job and minimizes the suffering of the condemned. Jaime is an interesting character too, of course. Books 1 and 2 he's villainous, but as the story progresses, he changes quite, um, handily. Classic Storytelling 101 says he'll have to answer for Bran in the end, but since when does GRRM commit random acts of Classic Storytelling?

[kimo333]

BondJamesBond, on 04 April 2012 - 12:27 AM, said:

In a perfect world, the following die as follows (fill in the blanks):

1.  Melisandre:
2.  Meryn Trant:
3.  Roose Bolton:
4.  Ramsay Bolton:
5.  "Urine" the "crows eye" greyjoy:
6.  Craster (or did he die?):
7. Illyn Payne:
8. Varys:
9. Qyburn:

Add anyone I've missed!  And, yes, Melisandre is a villain.  She killed Renly and likes to burn people alive.

renly got what he deserved

[James Arryn]

How do people feel Renly got what he deserved?

Even Stannis seems to have conflicting thoughts about that, and it was done by or for him.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

The hairy bear, on 05 April 2012 - 05:25 AM, said:

Well, Melisandre kills people for the glory of her god, Cersei does it for the glory of her House. Just different priorities.

I agree that Melisandre is not as evil as Ramsay, but still she burned alive Guncer Sunglass and Allester Florent. And was willing to burn a boy alive to acomplish a prophecy even she wasn't sure about.  The fact that Westeros has many worse people, doesnt make her less a villain in my book.

Cersei does it for the glory of Cersei lol ;-P

Melisandre is definitely one of those ambiguous characters and that's why I've always found her fascinating, quite honestly. I know she'll probably turn out to be the Queen of all Darkness in the end and someone will have to take her down, but it's nice to think "Maybe...she's a lil' good?" Probably not though...haha.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

kimo333, on 05 April 2012 - 05:18 PM, said:

renly got what he deserved

He deserved to get his throat slashed by a shadow demon? Why exactly? Because he had the political astuteness to recognize that everyone would rather have HIM as king rather the milquetoast Stannis? I like Stannis now as a character but I totally understand why the Storm Lords and the Reach sided with the charismatic Renly over him. Even if you make the argument that Renly backstabbed Stannis that STILL doesn't excuse his cowardly murder.

[Hear Us Roar]

Prince of Dragonstone, on 05 April 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

Not even Ramsay? Surely you jest...

I would not call him a villian for that. He is a terrible human being and has commited many heinous acts. But for us to identify villians we would ahve to identify the heroes of the story, which is different for everyone.

[Angalin]

Prince of Dragonstone, on 05 April 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

the milquetoast Stannis

Stannis is a milquetoast?  This is a surprising interpretation.  He's a lot of things, but spineless and meek aren't any of them.

Ser Amoc, on 05 April 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:

regardless of a character's alignment, thinking of ways to kill them is innately villainous

Funny you should say that. *puts on mod gloves*

Disliking character P and justifying why P's death would make narrative sense is one thing.  Describing P's (or Q's, or R's) longed-for death in gory detail is a quite different, and unacceptable, thing and not welcome on this board.  You may note that it gets threads closed.