402 replies to this topic

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Queen Cersei I, on 10 April 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

<snip>

I think it's worth calling things by the correct term if only to avoid trolling.  Clearly there are posters here that think "rape" has been overused, and now they're going to apply it to everything for their own amusement.  Whatever.  I think a better term for what's happened to Sansa, the bed slaves and the prostitutes is "sexual exploitation."  That term is used in connection with sexual slavery and human trafficing, and it refers to coerced sex for profit, or sex demanded in exchange for food, clothing, protection, etc., in other words, sexual exploitation is a bad, bad thing.  The term applies to Tyrion and Sansa's marriage because the entire Lannister family intended to profit through Sansa's claim to the North and by keeping that claim from the Tyrells, and that profit would only be assured by consummation of that marriage.

But whatever the term applied, the result would have been a bad sexual experience for Sansa.

Edited by Sand Snake No. 9, 10 April 2012 - 10:29 PM.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Queen Cersei I, on 10 April 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

You know LF's lash, for the past several days I've been reading the folllowing hateful and rarely supported comments on your part that myself and others (wisely, imo) have generally chosen to ignore. However, I couldn't help but wonder what, from Sansa, would inspire such vitriol on your part. A sample





So, yeah, I was wondering what in the world inspired such vitriol on your part. And now, rereading the Sansa chapters featuring LF in AFFC, I think I know.

It can't be easy seeing one's hero act unbelivably stupid, and basically show himself coming undone over his raging hardon for a barely 13 year old kid who does not return his feelings. No wonder you feel the need to insult, degrade, and mock Sansa at every turn. She is your hero's cryptonite, is proving to be able to see past his act more and  more, and may well prove his undoing at this point. Seeing one's hero make an ass of himself over his crush on a 13 year old schoolgirl cannot be fun, or inspiring for one who sees LF as some sort of inhumanly brilliant individual.....

Its you guys. honestly.  I hadn't paid Sansa much of a second thought (and assumed everyone loved Petyr) when I joined the board.  But I didn't actively dislike her. I just didn't like reading her chapters. But its this constant hand wringing over this character who's only redeeming qualities are being "Pretty and Nice".  Its driving me nuts.

If she were an actual 13 year old girl, I probably wouldn't feel the same way.  But there's a reason I haven't interact with any 13 year old girls...since I was 13.

I was actually thinking about this last night.  Sean Collins recently had a blog post where he wondered why there was no Bran hate.  To which I responded, first of all there is Bran hate.  I hated his chapters just as much as I hated Sansa's.  And second, SHE DOESN'T FUCKING DO ANYTHING.  The only reason I stopped hating Bran was because he started doing things.  They both suffer in my opinion of then for having Arya for their younger sister.

And then on top of that.  Comments like

"Alyn carried the Stark banner. When she saw him rein in beside Lord Beric to exchange words, it made Sansa feel ever so proud. Alyn was handsomer than Jory had been; he was going to be a knight one day."

Sansa sighed as she stitched. “Poor Jon,” she said. “He gets jealous because he’s a bastard.”

And then she has the nerve to treat characters I love, Arya, Jon, Tyrion, Sandor... like shit? Seriosly, I might not put her head on a spike, but if I were on the wall walk with her like Joffrey was.  I might push her off.


But then I thought, maybe I'm being sexist.  What if Sansa had a penis?  Which character would she be....

...RENLY

"The armorer considered that a moment. “Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He’ll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he’s copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day.”

“Renly’s made his own Kingsguard,” the onetime smuggler explained, “but these seven don’t wear white. Each one has his own color. Loras Tyrell’s their Lord Commander.”
It was just the sort of notion that would appeal to Renly Baratheon; a splendid new order of knighthood, with gorgeous new raiment to proclaim it. Even as a boy, Renly had loved bright colors and rich fabrics, and he had loved his games as well. “Look at me!” he would shout as he ran laughing through the halls of Storm’s End. “Look at me, I’m a dragon,” or “Look at me, I’m a wizard,” or “Look at me, look at me, I’m the rain god.”
The bold little boy with wild black hair and laughing eyes was a man grown now, one-and-twenty, and still he played his games. Look at me, I’m a king, Cressen thought sadly. Oh, Renly, Renly, dear sweet child, do you know what you are doing? And would you care if you did?"

And then to have people suggesting that she deserves, better than Tyrion. That Petyr is irredeemable because of her.  It is a bridge too far.  But I do want her away from Petyr and I don't think he can just let her go.  So...logically.. she needs to die.  The head on a spike is just a flourish.  But her father and brother were decapitated. And I do have this http://www.chevronon...012/03/king.jpg lovely poster as my desktop.

AND IF SHE SAYS LEMON CAKE ONE MORE TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ahhhhhhh!!!!!!!

Edited by Lord Littlefinger's Lash, 10 April 2012 - 08:42 PM.

[Lord Ben]

Lord Littlefinger, on 10 April 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

Its you guys. honestly.  I hadn't paid Sansa much of a second thought (and assumed everyone loved Petyr) when I joined the board.

LOL, I had the opposite reaction.   While I think LF is well written I hate him "as a person" and view him as probably the biggest villain in the story and was surprised when I found people like him and wanted him to win.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

ETA: DUH. Seriously? I preface nearly every comment about  Sansa I make with, GET THE FUCK AWAY from Petyr
But its not just that, its the shit says about Jon and Arya and how she treats Tyrion and Sandor.  YO, she called my girl horse-face, that bitch as got to go.

Queen Cersei I, on 10 April 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

It can't be easy seeing one's hero act unbelivably stupid, and basically show himself coming undone over his raging hardon for a barely 13 year old kid who does not return his feelings. No wonder you feel the need to insult, degrade, and mock Sansa at every turn. She is your hero's cryptonite, is proving to be able to see past his act more and  more, and may well prove his undoing at this point. Seeing one's hero make an ass of himself over his crush on a 13 year old schoolgirl cannot be fun, or inspiring for one who sees LF as some sort of inhumanly brilliant individual.....

Yeah. That's a given. I said as much in the aforementioned first post I made here.  I think Sansa, will be his downfall. But the keywords being unbelievable.  I don't believe he'd actually behave that way.  But the fact that its SANSA, that just fucking insulting. If it was Arya... well then I would understand.  

Now as for him making an ass of himself. Like I said, its not believable. That's my problem with it. It seems like a literary device just tell the audience what he's up to.  Now on another podcast someone said the same thing about Davos, and I lost my shit.  So maybe I am just biased. But it just can't believe it... Now I guess I know how you felt when Cersei finally got to rule in her own right.

Edited by Lord Littlefinger's Lash, 10 April 2012 - 08:51 PM.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Lord Ben, on 10 April 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

LOL, I had the opposite reaction.   While I think LF is well written I hate him "as a person" and view him as probably the biggest villain in the story and was surprised when I found people like him and wanted him to win.

well this issue is that I think that who feel that wouldn't be reading this series.

[chris999]

dont pay them any attention Lash. I am a huge Littlefinger fan too. Like him or hate him, his chapters are interesting, and always moving at a fast pace.

On the contrary, I cant figure out how half the threads in this forum are about Sansa and how many lemon cakes she wants to eat, or which little prince she thinks is cute... She is by far the most boring character in the book.

[Lyanna Stark]

IronSuitor, on 10 April 2012 - 01:52 PM, said:

I hate to tell everybody this, but the only way anyone wields power is through their relationship with others. The vast majority of people, and pretty much every woman, are powerless in a feudalistic society, and all power stems from the few men who can raise and lead significant armies. (Hatching dragons could help a woman along the way, though.) Unless you're the type of Lord who can stamp his feet and produce an army your position of power is totally dependent upon being close to one who can. A Lady who is close and influential to her lord can be a dangerous player, which is where I see Sansa's arc going, from pawn to player.

Not really. The women we see wielding power are all widows. Olenna Tyrell, Cersei, Dany, Anya Waynwood. And a special case in Asha, who constantly had to fight for her right to do so, and was married off by proxy against her will. You have Melisandre, who is outside society completely. Arianne is Dornish where the laws are different. You may also note that all of these women have one thing in common: they are unmarried.

Give some examples of married women wielding power in Westeros through their lords, as you claim there are many. The only one that does to a degree is Cat (who also gets widowed, I might add), and even she gets eventually replaced by her son, Robb. Lysa managed to get LF a position in Gulltown (hardly amazing), and after that he proved himself to Jon Arryn.

Sansa being married off to someone means unequivocally that any power she had will be taken away from her, to 99% certainty, unless it's a man she chooses and knows she can control (like for instance Sweetrobin, although even he could twart her and she could do nothing).

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 11 April 2012 - 01:51 AM.

[Lyanna Stark]

Maroucia, on 10 April 2012 - 07:50 PM, said:

Even though it’s true that Sansa was a valuable hostage, I disagree that her life was not in danger.
Joffrey would never have sent for ser Ilyn Payne to chop her head off, but Sansa has been brutally beaten more the often. The King’s guards surely were asked not to go too far, but they were still hitting on a 12 years old girl, you never know what could have happened. Hit in the wrong place and you can kill someone.

If I would have been Sansa, I would have proclaimed to everyone who would want to hear it that my whole family is entirely constituted of traitors.
I don’t think she can be blamed for trying to avoid being slapped in the face by metal gloves and punched in the belly by the strongest men in Westeros.

Absolutely.

If Joffrey could lop off Ned's head, he could surely have done the same to Sansa. Ned would have been a far more valuable hostage, yet that didn't bother Joffrey over much. Had Sansa been more "troublesome" I am sure that Joffrey would have had her beaten more, and maybe worse. If she had been caught conspiring with Dontos, I think she would have been in for a world of hurt, too.

Ndrew of Typhgarian, on 10 April 2012 - 03:18 PM, said:

Like the gods could care less. She is heir from the riverlands to the wall, and almost bethrothed to the East and married to the West. She has no choice but to play, its up to her if it's as a pawn or a player (thats really cool/clever, my congrats to who ever invented that)
And of course; Family Duty Honor

Edmure Tully's child is the heir of the Riverlands actually. Brynden Tully would also inherit before Sansa.

Besides, there is the small complication of it now being in Frey/Lannister hands.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Lyanna Stark, on 11 April 2012 - 01:43 AM, said:

Not really. The women we see wielding power are all widows. Olenna Tyrell, Cersei, Dany, Anya Waynwood. And a special case in Asha, who constantly had to fight for her right to do so, and was married off by proxy against her will. You have Melisandre, who is outside society completely. Arianne is Dornish where the laws are different. You may also note that all of these women have one thing in common: they are unmarried.

Give some examples of married women wielding power in Westeros through their lords, as you claim there are many. The only one that does to a degree is Cat (who also gets widowed, I might add), and even she gets eventually replaced by her son, Robb. Lysa managed to get LF a position in Gulltown (hardly amazing), and after that he proved himself to Jon Arryn.

Sansa being married off to someone means unequivocally that any power she had will be taken away from her, to 99% certainty, unless it's a man she chooses and knows she can control (like for instance Sweetrobin, although even he could twart her and she could do nothing).

Genna Lannister, Lady Dustin, Mage Mormont,

The only problem is that Catelyn essentially marries off Robb.  Political marriage is the way of the world in Westeros for male and female characters.  Lastly, every lord has to fight to hold their authority. Your banner will find an excuse to supplant you, if i wasn't Asha being a woman, it would have been something else.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Lyanna Stark, on 11 April 2012 - 01:48 AM, said:

Absolutely.

If Joffrey could lop off Ned's head, he could surely have done the same to Sansa. Ned would have been a far more valuable hostage, yet that didn't bother Joffrey over much. Had Sansa been more "troublesome" I am sure that Joffrey would have had her beaten more, and maybe worse. If she had been caught conspiring with Dontos, I think she would have been in for a world of hurt, too.

Yeah, but Joff was only able to do that because no one expected him to. Now they're on the look out.  

Quote

Edmure Tully's child is the heir of the Riverlands actually. Brynden Tully would also inherit before Sansa.

Besides, there is the small complication of it now being in Frey/Lannister hands.

Tyrion glanced round the yard. “Where’s the Stark girl?”

For a moment no one answered. Finally Joffrey said, “She was riding by me. I don’t know where she went.”

Tyrion pressed blunt fingers into his throbbing temples. If Sansa Stark had come to harm, Jaime was as good as dead. “Ser Mandon, you were her shield.”

Ser Mandon Moore remained untroubled. “When they mobbed the Hound, I thought first of the king.”

“And rightly so,” Cersei put in. “Boros, Meryn, go back and find the girl.”

“And my daughter,” Lady Tanda sobbed. “Please, sers.”

Ser Boros did not look pleased at the prospect of leaving the safety of the castle. “Your Grace,” he told the queen, “the sight of our white cloaks might enrage the mob.”

Tyrion had stomached all he cared to. “The Others take your fucking cloaks! Take them off if you’re afraid to wear them, you bloody oaf... but find me Sansa Stark or I swear, I’ll have Shagga split that ugly head of yours in two to see if there’s anything inside but black pudding.”

[Lyanna Stark]

Lord Littlefinger, on 11 April 2012 - 02:27 AM, said:

Genna Lannister, Lady Dustin, Mage Mormont, The only problem is that Catelyn essentially marries off Robb. Political marriage is the way of the world in Westeros for male and female characters. Lastly, every lord has to fight to hold their authority. Your banner will find an excuse to supplant you, if i wasn't Asha being a woman, it would have been something else.

The only one who is not a widow or unmarried is Genna Lannister. Maege and Lady Hornwood are both rulers in their own right.

Genna seems to be able to boss around her husband mainly because she is of far higher rank than she is, being Lord Tywin's sister and her husband being a total tosser, but I'll give you that one as the only one I can think of too (and I did think of Genna actually).

Catelyn doesn't marry off Robb. She knows what he needs to do to get across and assumes he will act the part, which he initially agrees to as well. Robb could have said no, but then he'd stayed in the north, too.

It's also not a question of Asha not being a woman, she IS a woman, so anything else is moot at this stage.

[Erinne]

I don't think they could ever really love each other. Even if we disregard the circumstances of their marriage, their personalities are just totally incompatible. Sure, they could maybe have come to respect each other and learn how to work together, but actual romantic love? Nah. That's not to say that I think they'll marriage will definitely be annulled; I think it's entirely possible that obtaining an annulment will be more difficult than many people expect and they'll be forced to stay married. But I don't think that would be a happy ending, for either of them.

Lyanna Stark, on 11 April 2012 - 01:48 AM, said:

Edmure Tully's child is the heir of the Riverlands actually. Brynden Tully would also inherit before Sansa.

You sure about that? I thought Hoster's children and any of their offspring would be before Brynden in the line of succession.

[Silverin]

Erinne, on 11 April 2012 - 05:42 AM, said:

I don't think they could ever really love each other. Even if we disregard the circumstances of their marriage, their personalities are just totally incompatible. Sure, they could maybe have come to respect each other and learn how to work together, but actual romantic love? Nah. That's not to say that I think they'll marriage will definitely be annulled; I think it's entirely possible that obtaining an annulment will be more difficult than many people expect and they'll be forced to stay married. But I don't think that would be a happy ending, for either of them.


You sure about that? I thought Hoster's children and any of their offspring would be before Brynden in the line of succession.

I think uncles come before daughters. Think about the Karstarks. The girls brother was still alive that is why her uncle wasn'T yet Lord Kartstark, but the brother was in prison and the uncle was waiting for him to die. There was not even a mention that the girl might inherit. If her brother dies, her uncle has the right to decide who to marry her off to. (I don'T remember the names, and I am too lazy to look it up.)

[Ser_Patreck]

Silverin, on 11 April 2012 - 06:08 AM, said:

I think uncles come before daughters. Think about the Karstarks. The girls brother was still alive that is why her uncle wasn'T yet Lord Kartstark, but the brother was in prison and the uncle was waiting for him to die. There was not even a mention that the girl might inherit. If her brother dies, her uncle has the right to decide who to marry her off to. (I don'T remember the names, and I am too lazy to look it up.)

Also, Greyjoys. Asha was alive and Balon was kinda grooming her to be his sucessor, but when he died, everyone went all "OMG, now it's between Victarion and Euron for King!". So, yeah.

[David Selig]

No, the whole point of Alys Karstark's plotline was that she was the legal heir, but her uncle wanted to bypass that by forcing her to marry her cousin. We have other examples of daughters of the Lord inheriting before brothers, like Cersei becoming the Lady of the Rock even though Kevan was alive when Tywin died. Catelyn was Hoster's heir before Edmure was born even though Brynden was alive.

Of course, what's legal doesn't count for all that much if the uncle has enough military power to ignore it, that's why things get complicated often.

[Silverin]

David Selig, on 11 April 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:

No, the whole point of Alys Karstark's plotline was that she was the legal heir, but her uncle wanted to bypass that by forcing her to marry her cousin. We have other examples of daughters of the Lord inheriting before brothers, like Cersei becoming the Lady of the Rock even though Kevan was alive when Tywin died. Catelyn was Hoster's heir before Edmure was born even though Brynden was alive.

Of course, what's legal doesn't count for all that much if the uncle has enough military power to ignore it, that's why things get complicated often.

Ok, I didn't pay that much attention about it now.
So then Sansa comes before Sweetrobin as well right?
But if Edmure and his child dies, whoever the heir of Winterfell (which means possible child of Robb, Bran, Rickon, Sansa, Arya, exept Jon of course), is the heir of Riverrun as well.
I could imagine a scenario where that heir decides to give Riverrun to the one next in line. It happened in history that rather than let a huge whole territory belong to one it was split between siblings.

But I don't think Sansa will have a claim for either. I think Robbs will makes sure that she won't be able to be used for her claim. And whether the iron Throne accpeted Robb or not, I think for the people of the North his will is the law. So they won'T care that he was not acknowledged by the Throne for them he was their king. And the Riverlands seen him as their king as well, so for them his will matters.
And I actually think it is better for Sansa that way.

Edited by Silverin, 11 April 2012 - 06:37 AM.

[Lyanna Stark]

Silverin, on 11 April 2012 - 06:32 AM, said:

Ok, I didn't pay that much attention about it now.
So then Sansa comes before Sweetrobin as well right?
But if Edmure and his child dies, whoever the heir of Winterfell (which means possible child of Robb, Bran, Rickon, Sansa, Arya, exept Jon of course), is the heir of Riverrun as well.
I could imagine a scenario where that heir decides to give Riverrun to the one next in line. It happened in history that rather than let a huge whole territory belong to one it was split between siblings.

But I don't think Sansa will have a claim for either. I think Robbs will makes sure that she won't be able to be used for her claim. And whether the iron Throne accpeted Robb or not, I think for the people of the North his will is the law. So they won'T care that he was not acknowledged by the Throne for them he was their king. And the Riverlands seen him as their king as well, so for them his will matters.
And I actually think it is better for Sansa that way.

According to GRRM, if the succession is uncertain and several people have contesting claims, it's normally the one with enough "hard power" that will win out, i.e. armies, powerful friends, money etc. It's always more difficult to state a claim if you have no power to back it up with.

I do agree with you though that it's probably for Sansa's benefit if she is indeed disinherited by Robb and removed from claiming Winterfell in her own name.

[Howling Mad]

Lyanna Stark, on 11 April 2012 - 01:43 AM, said:

Not really. The women we see wielding power are all widows. Olenna Tyrell, Cersei, Dany, Anya Waynwood. And a special case in Asha, who constantly had to fight for her right to do so, and was married off by proxy against her will. You have Melisandre, who is outside society completely. Arianne is Dornish where the laws are different. You may also note that all of these women have one thing in common: they are unmarried.

There's your clue to Sansa's inevitable rise to power - Sansa must first become a widow, poor Tyrion your lot is cast.

ETA with Jamie denouncing his inheritience to join the KG and Cersei likely to be impaled on a spike Tyrion and his widow would seem to be in line for the gold and power that are House Lannister.  Sansa could make all kinds of trouble as a blackwidow

Edited by Howling4Reed, 11 April 2012 - 09:41 AM.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Lyanna Stark, on 11 April 2012 - 02:34 AM, said:

The only one who is not a widow or unmarried is Genna Lannister. Maege and Lady Hornwood are both rulers in their own right.

No. Its not. Asha is a Woman.  Theon is greelander.  Victarion can't count past  10 without taking off his boots.  EriK Ironmaker can't stand up. Euron is Godless. They were going to say something bad about her regardless.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

LF is obviously more fun then Sansa. He is the biggest antagonist (not a villain, just the enemy of the protagonists {Starks, Tyrion}). Sansa doesn't do much, or anything really, yet how can you not like those chapters? Dontos once said that since he is a fool and not a knight no one cares what he hears. Sansa is also looked upon as a fool, which is why her chapters from ACOK-ASOS was just politics (the coolest theme in the story) and AFFC had her also in politcs (looking at LF work) also great chapters.
Many characters go thru changes, The Kingslayer is nothing like he was once. Dany changes dramatically in every book, etc. Yet Sansa potentially has changed the most, she is no longer the girl eating lemoncakes and looking at Lores while Ser Hugh was dead on the field, she is now giving Lemoncakes to Lord Robert so he'll shut up. Ok bad example, but Sansa Stark is Cat Tully in the flesh. Family Duty and Honor and shrewd politics flows thru her veins. She is the young and beautiful to take out Cersei, she is the one to bring justice and love back into the realm. Unless I'm overthinking this and... baby Rickon or Crippled Bran, or crazy Arya, or dead Jon rallies the troops; That's a shit load of potential she has, so how can we not support her? especially when we think of her in AGOT the spoiled brat she was. And why she should run away from LF? Why not. He is mad creepy, got his hands all over her like Marillion. Makes her call him dad becuase he killed her dad. And LF is in it for LF, not anyone else. So if everything LF does works out for him but fucks the realm over... Then why marry Harry insted of sticking with Tyrion?