402 replies to this topic

[Feather Crystal]

You have opened a kettle of snakes with this topic! And speaking of snakes, you must have been laying in the grass reading some of my posts and the responses they've been generating!

Sansa is still a child when she marries Tyrion, and her reaction to him is as a child, as are her current notions of romance, chivalry and gallantry. I am hoping she grows up to appreciate the man that Tyrion is regardless of his "dwarf-ness" (is that even a word?) or his family name. Tyrion is very under-appreciated in Westeros. He is the underdog, and because of that, I am expecting that he will finally get the recognition he so desires by the end of the series. So, to answer your question..."yes", yes I hope that Sansa and Tyrion reconcile. If not to consumate their marriage, then to become good friends.

My personal opinion regarding San/San is that, that type of relationship is not healthy. It's abusive. It's gross. Sandor threatened to kill Sansa. How is that "hot"?

[ElizaMartell]

A Free Shadow, on 05 April 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

Assumptions that I am "convinced that

Sansa will somehow be happy staying in the Westerlands with Tyrion when everything shown showsd she wants to go back to Winterfell".  Where did you get that from? It is beyond me.

Are you delibrately ignoring the point I made about what Tyrion has Sansa doesn't want?

Quote

Of course they will. Or they will be crushed.

By what? You're assuming that Dany will somehow give Tyrion free control of her dragons and will let him dominate the Westlands.

[A Free Shadow]

ElizaMartell, on 05 April 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:

Are you delibrately ignoring the point I made about what Tyrion has Sansa doesn't want?

No, I'm simply refuse to argue everything at once. We know where it ends or how it never ends. I think we are now trying to sort out if/what Tyrion has to offer. When we're done with this, we can move on to "Does Sansa want it?"

ElizaMartell, on 05 April 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:

By what? You're assuming that Dany will somehow give Tyrion free control of her dragons and will let him dominate the Westlands.

If Tyrion is "with Dany" and installed lord of Casterly Rock by her, he is under her and her dragons' protection. It would be enough one rebelling lord to be brought down by dragonfire for all others to fear.

[James Arryn]

Melisandra, on 05 April 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:

My personal opinion regarding San/San is that, that type of relationship is not healthy. It's abusive. It's gross. Sandor threatened to kill Sansa. How is that "hot"?

I love Tyrion. Probably my favorite character, or close to it, though it dragged towards the end of DOD.

That said, yes, Sandor did threaten to kill her, though you get the sense that was him trying to keep his vulnerability at bay. But yeah, he did, and yeah, it's gross.

On the other hand, Tyrion HAS killed a former lover with his own hands. And unlike Tywin, etc. she didn't represent any further threat to him; merely betrayal. If you're concerned with Sana's welfare, seeing Tyrion as he is as a whole also involves that, and I don't think any of us would want someone we care about to be in a relationship with someone who has shown he can become deadly in relationships.

[Woman of War]

Many posters hope for Sansa to become a clever player under the tutelage of Baelish. I guess she will at least have lost some moral compunctions and have, in the macchiavellian sense, learned  to go for the lesser evil - or even to ruthlessly scheme for her own interests. She will have perfectioned her ability to read people, by then being able to actively use that knowledge against them.
That's what posters predict by wanting Sansa in a more prominent role as character, growing up to be one of the cunning grey characters out there for revenge and the restauration of power they perceive that should be rightfully theirs., being a part in the power game.
Actually that's what I somehow would want for that character too, for the sake of the story, wake up, girl, the more antagonists the better - but is this Sansa? I am not so sure, open to debate.
The funny thing is, the more clever and cunning Sansa may become, the less she will be Sandor's little bird, she will simply grow out of it, losing her innocence in many ways, learning to use sex for her goals, and may it be to save those that are dear to her. The next time she may meet Sandor, if he is not dead or forever on the Quiet Isle, Sansa might be a totally different person who has grown out of being Sandor's dreamgirl. She might then be a total disappointment to him as nearly adult young woman who has learned to take her life into her own hands - and these hands may have become quite dirty by then. I see their relationship either as him accepting the change, wanting to be her true servant and true knight. Or worse, Sandor not accepting the adult Sansa who may be disillusioned and independent by then, maybe dirty in his eyes. Then Sandor may react once again in a violent manner towards her.
But a grownup Sansa may be able to develop a balanced relationship with her present formal husband, either as antagonist or as partner in the game, making common cause, being at least temporary allies. Thus they would be forced to communicate and an adult Sansa might have learned to use her courtesies in a sophisticated, not a mechanical manner. We know that Sansa has it in her to lie and to be cheating if she has to, she may transform this into political cleverness. I predict that towards the end of the story Sansa will not be so very much different from Tyrion, given her moral approach. Both have moral principles that will not get totally lost or will hopefully  resurface and, given their family background they might be in a position to reorganize power in westeros.
Does this mean that they may end as truly married couple? Well, if Martin decides so  they will and whatever you or I may write has no influence on the outcome.
I'd predict though that house alliances will, given the threat from the north, be rather irrelevant in the end, not many will care about the future of House Lannister or House Stark by then, so being born as a member of the wrong house won't be so very important when it comes to loyalty or love among characters in the face of far bigger problems that petty power games or pointless revenge. Tyrion by then will know that Sansa had no part in framing him for Joffrey's murder and Sansa will know that Tyrion did not have her family killed.
Tyrion and Sansa may well have political reasons to become a functioning married couple in the westerosi sense, dutiful, fertile and hopefully growing fond of each other, exactly what is served to descendants of nobility by tradition, equally sad for husband as for wife. A bit of an anticlimax, storywise, or the generally predicted bittersweet ending.
Or they might truly care for each other as matured adults who came to know each other as equals and interesting personalities if GRRM wishes to write it that way. They have so far a very different sense of humour, this is normally a killer aspect in a relationship but Sansa may have become far more cynical, sharpwitted and streetwise and Tyrion may be more wise and have learned to shut his mouth from time to time, while being a truly interesting talk. They both would have so much to tell by then.
And I just love the fact that the outcome is totally unpredictable. i would be seriously disappointed if a more or less happy ending would be easy to guess. I want to be surprised and not be able to give the answer right now, how boring would that be! And maybe Sansa and Tyrion will die a glorious death fighting the Others.

[Feather Crystal]

James Arryn, on 05 April 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

I love Tyrion. Probably my favorite character, or close to it, though it dragged towards the end of DOD.

That said, yes, Sandor did threaten to kill her, though you get the sense that was him trying to keep his vulnerability at bay. But yeah, he did, and yeah, it's gross.

On the other hand, Tyrion HAS killed a former lover with his own hands. And unlike Tywin, etc. she didn't represent any further threat to him; merely betrayal. If you're concerned with Sana's welfare, seeing Tyrion as he is as a whole also involves that, and I don't think any of us would want someone we care about to be in a relationship with someone who has shown he can become deadly in relationships.

I agree.

When I read that he had killed Shae, it had me shaking my head, because he didn't wait to find out how she came to be there. He simply made assumptions and I wanted to know "why" she came to be there. He was so filled with wanting vengence on his father, seeing Shae there just put him over the top. I guess we're to assume his father was a hypocrite for taking Shae as his whore, and perhaps had planted her with Tyrion all along? Remember when Tyrion asked Bronn where she came from?

I have to admit, though, that I felt these murders were justified and do not indicate that Tyrion would ever attack anyone else without just cause.

[James Arryn]

Melisandra, on 05 April 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

I agree.

When I read that he had killed Shae, it had me shaking my head, because he didn't wait to find out how she came to be there. He simply made assumptions and I wanted to know "why" she came to be there. He was so filled with wanting vengence on his father, seeing Shae there just put him over the top. I guess we're to assume his father was a hypocrite for taking Shae as his whore, and perhaps had planted her with Tyrion all along? Remember when Tyrion asked Bronn where she came from?

I have to admit, though, that I felt these murders were justified and do not indicate that Tyrion would ever attack anyone else without just cause.

1) Re: whether she was a plant...it's definitely possible. In the same vein that Cersei tries to get Robert to tilt by demanding he not, Tywin could have forbidden Tyrion bringing Shae to KL to make sure he did.

One exceptionally unexplored element in the whole series to me has been, who are Tywin's little birds? Everyone else's get discussed...LF's, Tyrion's, Varys', etc. But despite the fact that it's an absolute given that Tywin is plugged in, we NEVER hear about them. A lot of food for thought there.

2) Re: justified...eh. I mean, I sympathized with his pain. But I don't think you can justify murdering an unarmed woman like that. You can get why he felt that way maybe, but to me someone who justifies murder for personal reasons is someone who justifies murder. It wasn't self-defense, it wasn't to protect someone else...it wasn't even to save his house or the realm or whatever. It was willful murder of an unarmed woman for the sake of revenge.

I wouldn't want someone who has done that to be anywhere near someone I cared about, no matter how witty/entertaining/sympathetic I thought him otherwise.

Edited by James Arryn, 05 April 2012 - 05:18 PM.

[Grail King]

politically it's a smart move for the Lannisters, NOT for the Starks, Sansa will never allow them to get Winterfell and neither will the North, not even the Boltons and Tywin was planning on screwing them also.

The number 1 statement Sansa made stating her opposition was the big FU to all the Lannisters by refusing to except the Lannister cloak, and refusing to kiss Tyrion, he leaned and kissed her she made no movement to kiss him.

[Woman of War]

By Melisandra:

Quote

When I read that he had killed Shae, it had me shaking my head, because he didn't wait to find out how she came to be there. He simply made assumptions and I wanted to know "why" she came to be there. He was so filled with wanting vengence on his father, seeing Shae there just put him over the top. I guess we're to assume his father was a hypocrite for taking Shae as his whore, and perhaps had planted her with Tyrion all along? Remember when Tyrion asked Bronn where she came from?

agree
Murder in this case may be explained but  still never justified. It was not only wrong but very shortsighted of Tyrion not to question Shae, he was obviously totally beside himself and out of his mind after Jaime's story.

By James Arryn:

Quote

I wouldn't want someone who has done that to be anywhere near someone I cared about, no matter how witty/entertaining/sympathetic I thought him otherwise.

you are of course right, in RL no man who has ever threatened or murdered someone  should ever again get close to a woman  but then half of the book  characters would end in the dungeons of Kings Landing.
And I care about the character Tyrion so I would, secretly and in my most cheesy moments want him to find a fascinating love interest, Sansa or someone else.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

@Woman of War -- a fascinating love interest Sansa is not.  Tyrion needs to look elsewhere for "fascinating."

I'm completely mystified by Sansa/Tyrion shipping.  That "pretty girl sees the inner beauty of the nerd and falls in love" story is such a cliché that it should be confined to after-school specials and rom/coms.  So far, ASOIAF is nothing like a rom/com.

However, these Tyrion and Sansa 4 Evar threads remind me of a joke:

A woman is at the beach and she sees a very pale man lying on towel.

"Wow," she says to him, "you're certainly haven't gotten much sun lately."

"No I haven't," says the man, "in fact, I just got out of jail."

The woman hesitates. "Oh, uh, what were you in for?" she asks.

"I killed my wife."

The woman perks up, "So, I guess you're single now, huh?"

In case you didn't get it the joke is that the woman is so desperate she'd happily date, and even marry, a woman killer.  Tyrion has also killed a woman he "loved."  Sansa is not that desperate, in fact, as stated many times, she's lost interest in marriage.  Probably the smartest thing she's ever done.

A lot of readers are saying that after Sansa is educated in the ways of the world by Littlefinger she'll appreciate Tyrion more.  Well, I don't think Littlefinger is teaching Sansa a damn thing – except perhaps to let him into her bed – but the best thing she could learn is how to tell people to f*ck off, and she should start with her lying, alchoholic, whoremongering, woman-murdering, kinslaying, wife-raping, never-to-be-faithful husband.

On the other hand, sometimes I think Tyrion deserves a wife who won't sleep with him, won't look at him, won't talk to him. That marriage ought to keep him humble.

Edited by Sand Snake No. 9, 05 April 2012 - 06:46 PM.

[David Selig]

As I said before, I wouldn't wish Tyrion for a husband on my worst enemy, let alone on someone I like Sansa. He's completely unsuited to be a good husband, has a zillion issues and complexes related to women, and is a multiple murderer and a big jerk. Oh, and hideously looking to boot, and I am honest enough to admit that's a big deal.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

David Selig, on 05 April 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

As I said before, I wouldn't wish Tyrion for a husband on my worst enemy, let alone on someone I like Sansa. He's completely unsuited to be a good husband, has a zillion issues and complexes related to women, and is a multiple murderer and a big jerk. Oh, and hideously looking to boot, and I am honest enough to admit that's a big deal.

Clearly, Tyrion was never told "she's out of your league."

[Pellaeon]

I b elieve Sansa and Tyrion end up together, simply because they are married and it would make a statemend when Dany sits on the throne and a Lannister is married to a Stark, it would aid the peace and would be a statement to the people peace is there. And I believe they would made a good couple, both are inteligent and have great potential, they would like Tywin and Joanna, but with more mercy and with a happy end, at the time

[brashcandy]

Pellaeon, on 05 April 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

I b elieve Sansa and Tyrion end up together, simply because they are married and it would make a statemend when Dany sits on the throne and a Lannister is married to a Stark, it would aid the peace and would be a statement to the people peace is there. And I believe they would made a good couple, both are inteligent and have great potential, they would like Tywin and Joanna, but with more mercy and with a happy end, at the time

By all accounts, Tywin and Johanna loved one another deeply. This is most definitely not the case with Tyrion and Sansa. And why would having a Stark married to a Lannister send a message that peace is there? The only message this will send is that the same old system of oppression is being carried on under Dany's rule. Martin is showing time and again that marriages with no love between the partners and which are solely political alliances are disastrous for the peace and stability of the realm.

Edited by brashcandy, 05 April 2012 - 08:00 PM.

[brashcandy]

Sand Snake No. 9, on 05 April 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

Clearly, Tyrion was never told "she's out of your league."

And "she's just not that into you."

[LadyMary]

I think both Sansa and Tyrion would probably rather not be in a coercive marriage, which is what happened to both of them. Sansa told Tyrion she would never be able to love him after everything the Lannisters had done to her and to her family. I figure Tyrion deserves a wife who can at least be content with him. Sansa gave up on her dreams of the perfect Prince Charming and realizes that she will be loved more for her claim than for herself, but she should have at least not have the threat of death lingering as happened when she was wed to Tyrion.

[Feather Crystal]

James Arryn, on 05 April 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

2) Re: justified...eh. I mean, I sympathized with his pain. But I don't think you can justify murdering an unarmed woman like that. You can get why he felt that way maybe, but to me someone who justifies murder for personal reasons is someone who justifies murder. It wasn't self-defense, it wasn't to protect someone else...it wasn't even to save his house or the realm or whatever. It was willful murder of an unarmed woman for the sake of revenge.

By today's standards, where we have law enforcement and the ability to go to court to obtain justice, it would be difficult to justify Tyrion's murders. But, in Westeros, where law enforcement is at the whim of rulers like Joffrey, where there is no real justice system unless you take matters into your own hands and your very survival depends upon yourself and what you're willing to do... I would react in similar manner. Just as Arya's character does also. I see them both as survivors.

Sand Snake No. 9, on 05 April 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

I'm completely mystified by Sansa/Tyrion shipping.  That "pretty girl sees the inner beauty of the nerd and falls in love" story is such a cliché that it should be confined to after-school specials and rom/coms.  So far, ASOIAF is nothing like a rom/com.

I disagree with the assessment that its a cliche. It would be a sign of maturity that Sansa would be able to look past his appearance. She does, after all, admit to herself that Tyrion has always been kind to her. At least the relationship wouldn't be an unhealthy one like it would be with Sandor. That type of relationship would be as a batterer/abuser where he beats her one day or verbally cuts her down, and then we'd read some sick, twisted sex scene the next day. Yuck. He doesn't call her "little bird" as a sign of affection.

Quote

A lot of readers are saying that after Sansa is educated in the ways of the world by Littlefinger she'll appreciate Tyrion more.  Well, I don't think Littlefinger is teaching Sansa a damn thing – except perhaps to let him into her bed – but the best thing she could learn is how to tell people to f*ck off, and she should start with her lying, alchoholic, whoremongering, woman-murdering, kinslaying, wife-raping, never-to-be-faithful husband.

On the other hand, sometimes I think Tyrion deserves a wife who won't sleep with him, won't look at him, won't talk to him. That marriage ought to keep him humble.

Tyrion never raped Sansa (or anyone else for that matter ), nor lied to her, and if they did have a real marriage I believe he would be faithful. Why do you think he deserves a loveless marriage, or that he needs to be humbled? Tyrion has been subjected to bullying his whole life, and he never got the recognition or appreciation that he deserves.

Edited by Melisandra, 05 April 2012 - 08:24 PM.

[ElizaMartell]

Quote

I disagree with the assessment that its a cliche. It would be a sign of maturity that Sansa would be able to look past his appearance. She does, after all, admit to herself that Tyrion has always been kind to her. At least the relationship wouldn't be an unhealthy one like it would be with Sandor. That type of relationship would be as a batterer/abuser where he beats her one day or verbally cuts her down, and then we'd read some sick, twisted sex scene. Yuck. He doesn't call her "little bird" as an affectionate nickname.

Why is it always Sansa needs to 'grow up' and stay with an unattractive man but never Tyrion needs to 'grow up' and get with an unattractive woman? Guess what, Sansa has been put through some rough situations too, that doesn't mean she should play 'trophy wife' to poor wibble Tyrion because people have been horrible to him. She may think him kind but she doesn't want to be a Lannister. Furthermore even before her marriage to Tyrion she was willing to accept a potentially unattractive Willas just to get away from the Lannisters, she doesn't have to 'learn' anything.

[James Arryn]

Melisandra, on 05 April 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:

By today's standards, where we have law enforcement and the ability to go to court to obtain justice, it would be difficult to justify Tyrion's murders. But, in Westeros, where law enforcement is at the whim of rulers like Joffrey, where there is no real justice system unless you take matters into your own hands and your very survival depends upon yourself and what you're willing to do... I would react in similar manner. Just as Arya's character does also. I see them both as survivors.

I don't see it as just, though. So to me it's not just a matter of mechanics.

Which is not to say I couldn't understand his pain or betrayal. Just that feeling that does not = right to kill, in whatever society.

That others...Victarion, for example...would have done the same doesn't change that for me.

I really felt for Tyrion there, and to a degree could justify his patricide...but Shae (who I didn't even like, btw, and hoped he'd get shut of earlier)...that was one of those steps where a character you sympathize with goes a step beyond your (or my, anyway) ability to excuse. It's ironic that he killed his father after acting the most like him.

[Feather Crystal]

ElizaMartell, on 05 April 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

Why is it always Sansa needs to 'grow up' and stay with an unattractive man but never Tyrion needs to 'grow up' and get with an unattractive woman? Guess what, Sansa has been put through some rough situations too, that doesn't mean she should play 'trophy wife' to poor wibble Tyrion because people have been horrible to him. She may think him kind but she doesn't want to be a Lannister. Furthermore even before her marriage to Tyrion she was willing to accept a potentially unattractive Willas just to get away from the Lannisters, she doesn't have to 'learn' anything.

Because she does need to grow up. She's what, 13? Most people are attractive when they're young, but that fades with age and it's what's inside that becomes important. Intelligence, humor and respsect are qualities that will go a long way towards making a relationship work, and in Westeros, alliances are important. Most marriages in Westeros were arranged and people learned to work within those arrangements. I don't see her as a trophy wife, because I don't place that high a value on looks.

BTW, if you have to use sarcasm or insulting tones to support your arguments, then you really don't have a very sturdy leg to stand on.

Quote

@James Arryn: I really felt for Tyrion there, and to a degree could justify his patricide...but Shae (who I didn't even like, btw, and hoped he'd get shut of earlier)...that was one of those steps where a character you sympathize with goes a step beyond your (or my, anyway) ability to excuse. It's ironic that he killed his father after acting the most like him.

I do agree with you that I thought the murder of Shae was probably a step too far. But, perhaps Tyrion did think Shae was planted by Tywin?

Edited by Melisandra, 05 April 2012 - 08:38 PM.