239 replies to this topic

[PatrickStormborn]

Robb was, in general, an absolute idiot. Daenerys has shown much more political astuteness than he ever did.

Barty, on 11 April 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:

What about her ignoring Quentin and indirectly letting him die.  She just made enemies out of one of the strongest houses in the seven kingdoms - she turned her strongest ally in the seven kingdoms into an enemy - thats the dumbest thing to do.
And technically she does break a marriage contract - with the martells.

JFC. Dorne is one of the weakest of the Great Houses. They had nothing to offer her in Meereen.

THERE IS. NO. MARRIAGE. CONTRACT. It was between Viserys and Arianne -- but it was never even made known to him. Dany rejected the marriage contract. Robb had accepted the marriage contract and then chose to break it. That is not the same, and it's certainly not honourable of Robb. Dany abandoning Meereen and marrying Quentyn would have been dishonourable.

protar, on 11 April 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

She does, it just doesn't seem that way because the consequences are lessened for her. If she wasn't one of Martin's favourites she would have died a dozen deaths by now.

. Robb breaks his marriage contract with the Freys. He gets brutally murdered in all violation of guest right. Dany sleeps around with Daario when pledged to Hizdahr. She gets a few barbed words.

. Robb locks up Greywind because he's getting unruly. Greywind is unable to protect him during the above mentioned brutal murder. Dany locks up her dragons. They break out anyway and dozens of people are killed/injured. But not Dany

. Robb is very lenient with Cat freeing Jaime. This leads to a chain of events causing him to lose the Karstarks. Dany doesn't execute Jorah, only exiles him. This will likely lead to a chain of events culminating in Tyrion becoming one of her allies.

. Robb trusts Theon Greyjoy. He ends up losing the entire north. Dany trusts Brown Ben Plum, she frets about his betrayal for about 10 minutes and no harm comes of it.

Oh dear. If she wasn't one of the most important characters in the series she would have died a dozen deaths by now.

1. Dany did not sleep around. She enjoyed a consensual relationship as she was single. She stopped sleeping with him once she was married.

2. They did not break out -- they were released by Quentyn.

3. Dany was going to pardon Jorah, as I'm sure you're well aware. He brought his exile on himself.

Castel, on 10 April 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

Titles she granted herself. Titles that she thinks give her the right to invade Westeros in the middle of winter when everything is already devastated and thousands could starve. That's the problem with her entitlement , it assumes that the lives she would have to take to make fantasy reality are a good price to pay. That myopia is shared by many people in the story and it is a distinctly human outlook, but it still reeks of entitlement.

1. She did not grant the titles to herself. Her khalasar called her the Unburnt and the mother of dragons, and her freedmen call her the breaker of shackles. I'm pretty sure the only one she granted to herself was khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea.

2. Has she ever said she thinks the titles give her a right to Westeros? No. She thinks she has a right to Westeros because her family ruled there for 280 years.

Corm, on 10 April 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

1. I do not identify well with 13 year old girls, plain and simple.

6. The fact that she sees Robert's rebellion as completely different to when Aegon came and conquered everyone. She doesn't ever question her own entitlement.

9. She had sex with Daario. Just like with Robb and Jeyne this just screamed stupidity and blindness. Not because I don't like Daario (I strongly dislike him) but because it put her marriage in jeopardy.

12. She's shallow. She dismisses Quentyn as a suitor out of hand because he's not handsome.

13. She doesn't do anything cool. She's boring and has none of the other exciting scenes that the other characters do.

14. She's surrounded by boring characters that don't have any depth or opportunity to develop.

16. She's a typical queen who feels above the rest of the world.

This is why I, personally, dislike her, personally. I'm not saying that you should also hate her or that this makes her a bad character, this is waht annoys me.

1. So I'm assuming you hate every POV character who doesn't fit your own identity?

6. Robert's rebellion is different to Aegon's landing. Robert usurped the throne from the reigning Royal Family; Aegon was an outsider who CONQUERED six of the seven kingdoms.

9. It did not put her marriage in jeopardy. She put Daario aside as soon as she was married.

12. Wrong. She dismissed Quentyn as a suitor because he had no way of getting her out of her situation. Moreover she was already being married off to Hizdahr.

13. Dracarys. The dragon riding. The funeral pyre. The Undying. I'd also argue that her character arc in AGOT is one of the strongest in the series.

14. I disagree. Barristan, Jorah, Missandei, the Green Grace, the Shavepate and even Daario are all at least somewhat interesting. I think part of the problem is that they're only seen through her POV.

16. And therein lies your whole problem.

[brashcandy]

Keep the flag flying, Patrick Great response!

[Corm]

PatrickStormborn, on 11 April 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

1. So I'm assuming you hate every POV character who doesn't fit your own identity?

6. Robert's rebellion is different to Aegon's landing. Robert usurped the throne from the reigning Royal Family; Aegon was an outsider who CONQUERED six of the seven kingdoms.

9. It did not put her marriage in jeopardy. She put Daario aside as soon as she was married.

12. Wrong. She dismissed Quentyn as a suitor because he had no way of getting her out of her situation. Moreover she was already being married off to Hizdahr.

13. Dracarys. The dragon riding. The funeral pyre. The Undying. I'd also argue that her character arc in AGOT is one of the strongest in the series.

14. I disagree. Barristan, Jorah, Missandei, the Green Grace, the Shavepate and even Daario are all at least somewhat interesting. I think part of the problem is that they're only seen through her POV.

16. And therein lies your whole problem.

1. No that's not what I said. I don't hate Dany, I just don't like her as a person. I think her character is very interesting even if I find her arcs to be boring at times. Which is different to, say, Catelyn, who had interesting arcs but I hated her and her character. I do find it more difficult to like characters that I don't identify with though. For the same reason I don't really like Sansa's chapters, though they improved in AFFC. I do like Arya's though because she's played off as a tomboy with a more adventurous storyline. For almost every other character in the book I find some kind of connection, Dany doesn't really do it for me. The only one who I can't sympathise or empathise with at all is Cersei but her actions are so ludicrous and self-destructive that I don't really mind how awful she is.

6. How can you possibly say that? Robert had the same right to rule as Aegon did, his power. You could just as easily say that Robert conquered the seven kingdoms as opposed to usurping the throne. They both used forced to control Westeros. You honestly believe that it's different because Aegon usurped 6 different thrones? That is fucking mind-boggling.

9. I can see that I'm never going to win this one because we don't see them being found out but I just can't see that everyone would have been ok with that, that's how I feel. I also simply don't like the idea of her sleeping with him days before getting married, it just seems disrespectful.

12. I already explained this above but to reiterate, herself and Hiz weren't going to last forever and she doesn't consider what this might do for her support in Dorne and the Seven Kingdoms, for no other reason I can see than not finding him "enchanting" despite only having known him for five minutes, that snap judgement really annoyed me. Remember this is all assuming what she should do after Meereen, not in it.

13. I never read AGOT though I intend to so I can't speak for that but I wasn't moved by Dracarys or the dragon riding. The Undying was cool, I'll give you that. This isn't something I've singled Dany for, I hope you realise that. Many characters don't have a lot of cool parts and I don't like that, doesn't mean I don't like them because of that. With Dany it's one of many things I don't like about her.

14. Barristan is interesting and he has his own POV, he's someone that I do really want to see more of. Jorah and Missandei are alright but they don't have much to tell. I don't feel much of anything towards the Green Grace or the Shavepate and I openly dislike Daario. I didn't say that they were completely devoid of good characters, just that after 5 books I would like a couple more. (I'd also add Quaithe as one of the most intriguing characters in Essos)

16. Could you explain that? I've expanded on that point above as well if you care to look.

[PatrickStormborn]

Corm, on 11 April 2012 - 01:15 PM, said:

1. No that's not what I said. I don't hate Dany, I just don't like her as a person. I think her character is very interesting even if I find her arcs to be boring at times. Which is different to, say, Catelyn, who had interesting arcs but I hated her and her character. I do find it more difficult to like characters that I don't identify with though. For the same reason I don't really like Sansa's chapters, though they improved in AFFC. I do like Arya's though because she's played off as a tomboy with a more adventurous storyline. For almost every other character in the book I find some kind of connection, Dany doesn't really do it for me. The only one who I can't sympathise or empathise with at all is Cersei but her actions are so ludicrous and self-destructive that I don't really mind how awful she is.

Basically you can't identify with female, non-tomboy characters.

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6. How can you possibly say that? Robert had the same right to rule as Aegon did, his power. You could just as easily say that Robert conquered the seven kingdoms as opposed to usurping the throne. They both used forced to control Westeros. You honestly believe that it's different because Aegon usurped 6 different thrones? That is fucking mind-boggling.

Robert was part of the political structure of Westeros. So he rebelled against his leige lord when he took the throne. Aegon did no such thing as he had no alliegances to any of the kingdoms. Robert is a usurper, and not once in the series is he called a conqueror.

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9. I can see that I'm never going to win this one because we don't see them being found out but I just can't see that everyone would have been ok with that, that's how I feel. I also simply don't like the idea of her sleeping with him days before getting married, it just seems disrespectful.

It was a political marriage.

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12. I already explained this above but to reiterate, herself and Hiz weren't going to last forever and she doesn't consider what this might do for her support in Dorne and the Seven Kingdoms, for no other reason I can see than not finding him "enchanting" despite only having known him for five minutes, that snap judgement really annoyed me. Remember this is all assuming what she should do after Meereen, not in it.

She did not reject Quentyn because of his appearance or his personality. She did it because Hizdahr was necessary to fix her problems in Meereen. She still told Quenytn that there was hope for him when she took him to see her dragons, though.

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13. I never read AGOT though I intend to so I can't speak for that but I wasn't moved by Dracarys or the dragon riding. The Undying was cool, I'll give you that. This isn't something I've singled Dany for, I hope you realise that. Many characters don't have a lot of cool parts and I don't like that, doesn't mean I don't like them because of that. With Dany it's one of many things I don't like about her.

If you're going to post about Daenerys then you really should read AGOT. Game of Thrones (the tv series) covers most of what happens, but there are a lot of small details that are lost without her internal monologue.

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16. Could you explain that? I've expanded on that point above as well if you care to look.

Calling her a "typical queen" is pretty misogynistic, is my point.

[brashcandy]

*flexes fingers* well I suppose now is as good a time as any to return from my hiatus on Dany threads.

Corm, on 11 April 2012 - 01:15 PM, said:

1. No that's not what I said. I don't hate Dany, I just don't like her as a person. I think her character is very interesting even if I find her arcs to be boring at times. Which is different to, say, Catelyn, who had interesting arcs but I hated her and her character. I do find it more difficult to like characters that I don't identify with though. For the same reason I don't really like Sansa's chapters, though they improved in AFFC. I do like Arya's though because she's played off as a tomboy with a more adventurous storyline. For almost every other character in the book I find some kind of connection, Dany doesn't really do it for me. The only one who I can't sympathise or empathise with at all is Cersei but her actions are so ludicrous and self-destructive that I don't really mind how awful she is.

So basically what you're saying is that you have a problem with most of the female characters except the one who acts like a boy? Colour me surprised.

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6. How can you possibly say that? Robert had the same right to rule as Aegon did, his power. You could just as easily say that Robert conquered the seven kingdoms as opposed to usurping the throne. They both used forced to control Westeros. You honestly believe that it's different because Aegon usurped 6 different thrones? That is fucking mind-boggling.

No, what Aegon did was different from Robert. Aegon conquered the seven kingdoms and united them. What Robert did was plain old usurpation. Aerys could have been removed from power, and either Rhaegar, or those next in line could have continued the Targaryen rule. There's a reason why Robert has long been paranoid over the Targaryen heirs.

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9. I can see that I'm never going to win this one because we don't see them being found out but I just can't see that everyone would have been ok with that, that's how I feel. I also simply don't like the idea of her sleeping with him days before getting married, it just seems disrespectful.

Why is this disrespectful? Do you imagine that Hizdahr was being faithful to her in the lead up to the marriage as well? He was fully in it for what he could get out of Dany, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with her enjoying her last days of singlehood with the man she loves before entering into a purely political alliance.

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12. I already explained this above but to reiterate, herself and Hiz weren't going to last forever and she doesn't consider what this might do for her support in Dorne and the Seven Kingdoms, for no other reason I can see than not finding him "enchanting" despite only having known him for five minutes, that snap judgement really annoyed me. Remember this is all assuming what she should do after Meereen, not in it.

Except that she didn't make a snap judgement. She told him later on that her marriage need not be end of all his hopes, treated him with courtesy, and tried to learn more about Dorne from him. She only rejects Quentyn afterwards when she realises that he cannot handle what he came for: fire and blood.

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13. I never read AGOT though I intend to so I can't speak for that but I wasn't moved by Dracarys or the dragon riding. The Undying was cool, I'll give you that. This isn't something I've singled Dany for, I hope you realise that. Many characters don't have a lot of cool parts and I don't like that, doesn't mean I don't like them because of that. With Dany it's one of many things I don't like about her.

Not moved by Dracarys?!? Are you sure you're alive?

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14. Barristan is interesting and he has his own POV, he's someone that I do really want to see more of. Jorah and Missandei are alright but they don't have much to tell. I don't feel much of anything towards the Green Grace or the Shavepate and I openly dislike Daario. I didn't say that they were completely devoid of good characters, just that after 5 books I would like a couple more. (I'd also add Quaithe as one of the most intriguing characters in Essos)

Take this up with GRRM, not with Dany's character.

[Morte]

Corm, on 11 April 2012 - 01:15 PM, said:

6. How can you possibly say that? Robert had the same right to rule as Aegon did, his power. You could just as easily say that Robert conquered the seven kingdoms as opposed to usurping the throne. They both used forced to control Westeros. You honestly believe that it's different because Aegon usurped 6 different thrones? That is fucking mind-boggling.

No. I quote myself here, as I'm tired to paraphrase it, and we already had that discussion before:

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Posted by Morte on 17 January 2012 - 04:34 PM
One last thought on the usuper/conqueror: For a historian this are two different categories. An usurper does fight from within, the usurpation takes place after a civil war. The conqueror comes from outside the system. The english Wikipedia is quite wrong on this point, while the german one is quite well written: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usurpator for those who can read german [img]../../../public/style_emoticons/default/wink.png[/img]

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 05:54 PM
One last post about usurpator and conqueror, translation the importent part of the german Wikipedia (link in post above), and I asume you as a historian, this two words are NOT synonyms:
Wikipedia:
"Meist ist im historisch-politischen Kontext dann von einer Usurpation die Rede, wenn der bislang legitime Herrscher zum Zeitpunkt der Erhebung des Konkurrenten noch lebt und amtiert. Es kommt also stets zu einem Konflikt zwischen dem bisherigen Herrscher und seinem Herausforderer, der oft Züge eines Bürgerkriegs trägt."

In historical political context we call something a usurpation, when the legitimated monarch is still alive and in charge at the moment of the uprising of the concurrent. So it always comes to a conflict between the monarch and the contender, often similar to a civil war.

Posted by Morte on 17 January 2012 - 04:34 PM
German Wikipedia on Conqueror http://de.wikipedia....Eroberungskrieg :
"Der Eroberungskrieg ist ein Krieg, der geführt wird, um den eigenen Machtbereich um Gebiete eines anderen Staates zu erweitern. Das Ziel ist es, Gebietshoheit über ein bisher fremdes Gebiet zu erlangen."

War of conquest is a war fought so as to greater ones own spere of control on the cost of another states. The goal is to get lordship* over foreign territory.

Also: great kudos to you, Patrick Stormborn! I think most of us people loving or liking Dany are tired to write the same arguments over and over again. It's really great that you keep up the fight.

[PatrickStormborn]

brashcandy, on 11 April 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

Keep the flag flying, Patrick Great response!

Morte, on 11 April 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

Also: great kudos to you, Patrick Stormborn! I think most of us people loving or liking Dany are tired to write the same arguments over and over again. It's really great that you keep up the fight.

Haha thank you both! I've been keeping away from Dany threads recently for my own sanity ... but I'm back in full force now.

[protar]

Ghost714, on 11 April 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

Dany said she would marry Hizdahr zo Loraq if he gave her 90 days of peace, please quote where she said she would not have sex with other people during that 90 days?
Do you think Hizdahr wasn't fucking bedwarmers during that 90 days? Hell Hizdahr was screwing bedwarmers while being married to Dany, do you honestly think he was cheated on in any way? It's not like Dany and Hizdahr we're dating before the wedding. It was strictly a political marriage, that's it, there was no pledge broken at all.

Robb knew exactly who he made a deal with, Walder Frey, and he knew that there would be consequence for breaking his betrothal, and he did it anyway. It's not even a comparable situation to Dany's, that's why there is no consequences for what Dany did, compared to what Robb did. Had Dany pledged to marry Hizdahr if he gave her 90 days of peace, and then married Daario instead, after Hizdahr gave her that 90 days of peace, then it would be comparable to Robb, and then Dany would have had great onsequences like Robb did.

I don't know how you think Dany should have the same repercussions as Robb, hardly any of the situations are the same. Robb trusted Theon, to get the help of the Iron Islands, the Ironborn can not be compared to a free company of Sellswords, the Second Sons have five hundred men, and the Iron Islands have like thirty thousand men(maybe more). There was way more room for error in trusting Theon, then there was in trusting Brown Ben Plum, that's why Dany is obviously smarter than Robb in that regard, there is nothing contrived about it. Had Dany been foolish enough to trust Ben Plum with the Unsullied, then you would have a comparable situation.

And Tyrion was already going to Dany before he ran into Jorah at the brothel in Volantis, and Tyrion is also the one responsible for getting them to Dany, if it were up to Jorah they would have stayed as slaves, because it was Tyrion who got them to the Second Sons. So once again not a comparable situation.
Next your going to say its contrived that Tyrion is joining Dany, and that he should have joined Robb.

Dany locked up Her dragons because they were uncontrollable at the moment, Robb stopped having Grey Wind near him, because he was upset that Summer and Shaggydog didn't protect Bran and Rickon, that story about him getting wild was just a pretense. So again it's not really the same situation, and I highly doubt that Grey Wind would have been able to save Robb, even if he was there. It also not like Drogon saved Dany, he almost killed her, but she saved Drogon, and the lives of people around him. Dany had to get Drogon out of there, to save him, and anybody he might kill.

I am sorry you think Dany should have the same fate as Robb, life is not fair, but it's because there situations were completely different, not because Dany's story is contrived or anything.

I never said they were direct parallels. My point was that Dany makes a lot of mistakes (this is not a point of debate imo. she does make mistakes.) and yet there are little to no consequences for her.

[Apple Martini]

protar, on 11 April 2012 - 01:52 PM, said:

I never said they were direct parallels. My point was that Dany makes a lot of mistakes (this is not a point of debate imo. she does make mistakes.) and yet there are little to no consequences for her.

I broadly agree with this. Did Robb make by-and-large dumber mistakes than Dany, probably. But she's still made them and up until now she's gotten away — in one case, literally flying away — from having to deal with the consequences.

[PatrickStormborn]

protar, on 11 April 2012 - 01:52 PM, said:

I never said they were direct parallels. My point was that Dany makes a lot of mistakes (this is not a point of debate imo. she does make mistakes.) and yet there are little to no consequences for her.

NO CONSEQUENCES OMG. Her husband and her unborn son were killed because she trusted Mirri Maz Duur, and it also meant she lost the only home she'd known since her childhood.

Just because Dany isn't dead doesn't mean her actions haven't resulted in dire consequences.

[ManyFacedOne]

Corm, on 11 April 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

It's not about mutual admiration, it's about an image, not to each other but to the Meereenese people, particularly the slavers. It shows no consideration for how her actions can affect those around her. Sleeping with Daario could have undermined her marriage to Hiz had the entire public found out about it and he was the basis for the peace between herself and the SotH. It's the same as an arranged marriage, just because you don't know or love the person doesn't diminish the consequences if you sleep with someone else before a marriage. Peopl don't trust you, don't want you to be their lady/queen.

And how would the public find out about it? There's many rumors going around about Dany in Dance, none of which has seriously undermined her position with the people. And make no mistake. The slavers need no extra excuses to hate Dany, something as small as who she slept with before being married isn't even a afterthought compared to their actual grievances against her.

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Age old tradition does matter, I hate slavery, I think it's evil, therefore, in my view they are evil people.

It's evil but that's too simplified a view of things. For instance, many of the first US presidents owned slaves, but it doesn't negate all the good they did for their country, nor does it automatically make them evil.

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Yes, some slaves would have been better off before but not most

Well it's hard to say for sure, but Meereen wasn't starving or plagued with disease before Dany came through. Certainly a great deal of them were better off before, even pit fighters, who were no longer even being feed well. One of Tyrion's chapters, for example, showed that a lot of the slaves were treated much better than the peasants of Westeros. Some of the slaves even take it as a point of pride being owned by a prominent slave owner and wouldn't take the freedom Dany was offering if they had a choice.

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Yup, there is obviously no alternative to slaving to generate wealth.

No one wanted their salt or copper and their wine was inferior. If you noticed, Dany spent a lot of time trying to come up with alternatives and realizing they weren't enough.

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No she didn't, my point is that despite all of her concern for Westeros and her family, she doesn't ever think about him in a positive or even accepting way.

Who? Hiz or Quentyn? Quentyn doesn't even matter as she wasn't going to marry him, and in fact, wanted him to leave before he got himself into trouble.

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I don't know, maybe try what she did with Drogon? Get one of them on their own in a locked room and use a whip and talk to them.

What she did with Drogon almost killed her, and it still didn't tame him in any sense of the word.

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She hardly thought that dragons would be easy to tame, nor would she have thought that she could just keep them cooped up forever. It would have been much smarter to try and train them while they were still young instead of waiting till they got so big that they broke out of their own free will and flew away. When she realised that they were difficult to control she should have focused on keeping control of them, not ignoring them.

They weren't difficult to control; they were impossible to control, as we see when she needed dozens of men to help take them to the pit. The only reasonable way she could control them was by locking them in the pit. I think the whole point was that you can do whatever you want to the dragons but it isn't going to change their nature. They're wild beasts and the only way the Valyrians ever controlled theirs were with spells and horns and such.

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How does allowing torture and ignoring Westeros constitute putting her people before herself?

Who said anything about torture? And ignoring Westeros is obvious. The only reason she didn't march for Westeros was because her people wouldn't have been able to take the march, and she didn't want to leave Meereen to the fate of Astapor.

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I wouldn't do it in her place but what would have worked best would have been to follow her counsel and kill the Great Masters, or one of their family. That would have helped her people.

All of them? Sure. But unless she comitted mass murder on every slaver in the city, it wouldn't have helped none; and it would've been hard, if not impossible, to be so thorough.

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What she does is put her principles before herself. She thinks it's perfectly fine to kill 163 of them in response to the children but then won't do so again when her people are dying? It's the hypocrisy that really gets me. She was in a horrible position her options were cruelty or hypocrisy, she chose hypocrisy and I dislike her for it. My response would most likely have been similar if she had chosen the other route but that doesn't make me dislike her less.

I think she had a hard time convincing herself that that was justice. It's easy to see why she wouldn't want to do that on a much larger scale.

[protar]

PatrickStormborn, on 11 April 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

NO CONSEQUENCES OMG. Her husband and her unborn son were killed because she trusted Mirri Maz Duur, and it also meant she lost the only home she'd known since her childhood.

Just because Dany isn't dead doesn't mean her actions haven't resulted in dire consequences.

So far as i'm aware the death of Drogo and Rhaego weren't caused by Dany's. And even that got turned around into her getting dragons.

EDIT: Actually, my bad Drogo and Rhaego dying was caused by Dany's misplaced trust in MMD, but again it ends up with her getting dragons.

Edited by protar, 11 April 2012 - 03:29 PM.

[Corm]

I can see that I have obviously touched old, old wounds by talking about why I dislike Dany but I don't understand the reaction I'm getting. All I'm trying to do is reply to the question asked in the topic about why I, personally, do not like Dany. I don't know whether you guys all lover or what but most of what I'm saying is a purely personal preference.

PatrickStormborn, on 11 April 2012 - 01:29 PM, said:

Basically you can't identify with female, non-tomboy characters.

brashcandy, on 11 April 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

So basically what you're saying is that you have a problem with most of the female characters except the one who acts like a boy? Colour me surprised.

I didn't say I can't, I said it's more difficult, which I thought would have been true for almost everyone of the opposite gender to any character. I don't see how my being able to identify with someone or not can be argued. You seem to be insinuating I'm some sort of sexist, that is not the case, I just find it difficult to like characters that I can in no way relate to. I would have thought that I would be free to say so.

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Robert was part of the political structure of Westeros. So he rebelled against his leige lord when he took the throne. Aegon did no such thing as he had no alliegances to any of the kingdoms. Robert is a usurper, and not once in the series is he called a conqueror.

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No, what Aegon did was different from Robert. Aegon conquered the seven kingdoms and united them. What Robert did was plain old usurpation. Aerys could have been removed from power, and either Rhaegar, or those next in line could have continued the Targaryen rule. There's a reason why Robert has long been paranoid over the Targaryen heirs.

and @Morte

I'm not an idiot, I know the fucking difference in definition between usurping and conquering, what I'm saying is that you'd have to be blind not to see that it is the exact same thing in context. For Christ's sake, do you really think that when the Aegon came over the Seven Kingdoms just handed over their power because they too believed that he was entitled to it? Are you trying to say that Aegon's was more justified or something? There is no "rightful" ruler of the Seven Kingdoms or anywhere in any fantasy or real universe. It all stems from a belief that just because you were born a certain way means you deserve certain things. If anything I think that Robert's rebellion was more justified, not because I love him/the Starks/Stannis/Renly etc, not because I hate the Lannisters/Dany/the Targaryens or any other thing that would affect my judgement but because he was avenging good men,  removing a horrible King and he thought he was saving Lyanna. What Aegon did was simply use power to take something that wasn't his. But back to what I was actually arguing, Dany has no entitlement, if we just keep going back then we say there should be no united Seven Kingdoms and go back to all of them separately, or we could go back and say that the Children of the Forest should be the ones who control the Seven Kingdoms cos they ruled it first. My argument lies in the fact that I hate this sense of entitlement that monarchies produce and I don't believe that simply because Aegon united the Seven Kingdoms means that he is vastly different to Robert.

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It was a political marriage.

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And how would the public find out about it? There's many rumors going around about Dany in Dance, none of which has seriously undermined her position with the people. And make no mistake. The slavers need no extra excuses to hate Dany, something as small as who she slept with before being married isn't even a afterthought compared to their actual grievances against her.

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Why is this disrespectful? Do you imagine that Hizdahr was being faithful to her in the lead up to the marriage as well? He was fully in it for what he could get out of Dany, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with her enjoying her last days of singlehood with the man she loves before entering into a purely political alliance.

Again, I understand that it was a political marriage, call me crazy but I just don't think it's nice to fuck other people in the lead up to your wedding, that's why it's disrespectful, Hiz is guilty of the same thing. There are a million and one ways they could find out which I believe you can figure out for yourself. I'm not saying that it would make them hate her more but that they, or Hiz, might not want to continue with the marriage and peace if they thought she was going to just do this in front of everyone. Dany did this without the knowledge that Hiz was sleeping with other women, or that he would be fine with it. In the end he was fine, I just think it stupid to do anything that has even a tiny chance of upsetting the very edgy peace. I never said that there was any affection between D+H, I just think that it would show more courtesy if she didn't fuck Daario.

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She did not reject Quentyn because of his appearance or his personality. She did it because Hizdahr was necessary to fix her problems in Meereen. She still told Quenytn that there was hope for him when she took him to see her dragons, though.

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Except that she didn't make a snap judgement. She told him later on that her marriage need not be end of all his hopes, treated him with courtesy, and tried to learn more about Dorne from him. She only rejects Quentyn afterwards when she realises that he cannot handle what he came for: fire and blood.

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Who? Hiz or Quentyn? Quentyn doesn't even matter as she wasn't going to marry him, and in fact, wanted him to leave before he got himself into trouble.

Okay, you just didn't read what I wrote. I explained that she never even considered him for the future, or how that dismissal would affect her alliance with Dorne. She said there was hope for him, but not as her husband. I don't know what you consider a snap judgement but I don't think 10 sentences is sufficient evidence to determine whether someone has a good personality or not. Ok well she laughed in his face that's not really courtesy but she never once considered marrying him, that much is clear, she may have aided him, joined forces with him, but she never thought over marrying him. It's the blatant disregard for Westeros that annoys me, as well as the snap judgement. I was talking about Quentyn and you missed my point. Dorne is currently the only kingdom that supports her, not to mention her family - she ultimately wants to capture Westeros. Disregarding Quentyn was counter-productive.

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If you're going to post about Daenerys then you really should read AGOT. Game of Thrones (the tv series) covers most of what happens, but there are a lot of small details that are lost without her internal monologue.

I definitely am going to do so but I don't think the even more naive Dany is going to appeal to me any more than this more mature one

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Calling her a "typical queen" is pretty misogynistic, is my point.

Right, well you just completely misunderstood my question. What I meant to say is that she acts just like someone who has been told she is entitled all her life, that this is her birthright, and that she is above the rest of the people. Please don't return with an argument against why she is like that if you don't read what I have written in a previous post first. You could have put any number of words in there and it would have had the same meaning: King, lord, Prince, Princess, Lady, Knight, Count, Duke etc. Don't try and lay the sexist card on me just because I don't like a female character.

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Not moved by Dracarys?!? Are you sure you're alive?

Well maybe I'm just feeling a little annoyed....

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Take this up with GRRM, not with Dany's character.

The question was why do people not like Dany? I don't like her partly because of the people around her. I thought it was more of a broad, "Dany chapters" kind of thing

ManyFacedOne, on 11 April 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

It's evil but that's too simplified a view of things. For instance, many of the first US presidents owned slaves, but it doesn't negate all the good they did for their country, nor does it automatically make them evil.

Maybe "evil" is a bit too harsh. All I'm saying is that we are presented with almost no good or even grey, powerful characters.

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Well it's hard to say for sure, but Meereen wasn't starving or plagued with disease before Dany came through. Certainly a great deal of them were better off before, even pit fighters, who were no longer even being feed well. One of Tyrion's chapters, for example, showed that a lot of the slaves were treated much better than the peasants of Westeros. Some of the slaves even take it as a point of pride being owned by a prominent slave owner and wouldn't take the freedom Dany was offering if they had a choice.

Well the disease was brought from Astapor, I wouldn't call that a direct result of freeing the Meereenese, more of an indirect one thanks to King Cleos. As for the starving, it's not because the slaves kept everyone fed, it's that the Great Masters burned the farms and the surrounding cities boycotted them. When the Lamb People agreed to come over, there was no longer a problem apparently. As Tyrion said, people choose to be slaves, unfortunately the other choice is death. I don't think that it's better for people to have to make that decision. Some having good lives doesn't make up for those who were killed.

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No one wanted their salt or copper and their wine was inferior. If you noticed, Dany spent a lot of time trying to come up with alternatives and realizing they weren't enough.

And she found one, the Lamb People

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What she did with Drogon almost killed her, and it still didn't tame him in any sense of the word.

Exactly my point, it all should have been done earlier, she should have taken more precautions and been more responsible.

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They weren't difficult to control; they were impossible to control, as we see when she needed dozens of men to help take them to the pit. The only reasonable way she could control them was by locking them in the pit. I think the whole point was that you can do whatever you want to the dragons but it isn't going to change their nature. They're wild beasts and the only way the Valyrians ever controlled theirs were with spells and horns and such.

They were impossible to subdue, not control. She never once made a conceited effort to try and get them under her control, to follow orders. I agree that they probably are just wild and impossible to control but she should have tried.

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Who said anything about torture? And ignoring Westeros is obvious. The only reason she didn't march for Westeros was because her people wouldn't have been able to take the march, and she didn't want to leave Meereen to the fate of Astapor.
All of them? Sure. But unless she comitted mass murder on every slaver in the city, it wouldn't have helped none; and it would've been hard, if not impossible, to be so thorough.

She agreed to have the wine seller tortured to find out if he knows anything about the Harpy. That's not the
point I was making. She ignored a good alliance in Quentyn and Dorne. I was saying that she claims to put her people first but doesn't consider how her invasion of Westeros will hurt those there.
The idea was to kill the Grand Masters, there weren't so many of them, so she could have been completely thorough. All she had to do was kill one member of every family, horrible I know, but it probably would have worked.

[Ghost714]

protar, on 11 April 2012 - 01:52 PM, said:

I never said they were direct parallels. My point was that Dany makes a lot of mistakes (this is not a point of debate imo. she does make mistakes.) and yet there are little to no consequences for her.

Dany has had to pay a lot of consequences for her mistakes, PatrickStormborn has pointed out a few of those mistakes.Were Dany's consequences as big as Robb's? No. But did Robb make bigger mistakes than Dany? Yes.

I agree that Dany has gotten of easy on a few of her mistakes, but no where near all of them. Sometimes people just get lucky.


@PatrickStormborn

I am glad your back, its easier to post on Dany threads when you are around, it gets exhausting when you are one of the only people for Dany.

[Awesome Oberyn Martell]

Barty, on 11 April 2012 - 07:42 AM, said:

what does danny get handed to her?? - the three dragons for one - as a wedding present. Then she becomes a khaleesi by being pretty- after that she gets an army of unsullied for basically free

She got three dragon eggs from Illyrio. If he knew how to hatch them you can bet they'd have gone to Aegon. She becomes Khaleesi by being pretty, true but that just made her Drogos wife. She didn't get her followers from being pretty, she got them from hatching dragons. Otherwise she'd be at Vaes Dothrak as the prettiest former Khaleesi. The Unsullied came from her fooling the slavers. Some say it was too easy, it's called being clever. She knew they were lusting for a dragon and she used deceit to hide that she knew High Valyrian and her identity to lull them into a false sense of security, you call it cheating but it's clearly not been given to her.

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she gets one of the finest knights in westeros to join her by sitting around being who she is.

And Robb gets two of the seven Kingdoms by just being who he is. Not even comparable.

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She fights no wars - lets her dragons run around out of control till they start killing innocent children( compare here - robb beheaded rickard karstark and lost a large part of his army for killing Lannister children - danny pays the father some coin and doesnt give a damn anymore)

She sacks Astapor and takes Meereen. Then tries to avoid all out war, usually regarded as a good thing to do. She lets her dragons grow and hunt (while paying the farmers for any sheep eaten), as you know they're her main weapon and need to grow. When they kill one child she chains Rhaegal and Viserion up and would have chained Drogon if he hadn't gone away. Robb beheaded Karstark because he had to, just as Dany chained up her dragons and lost her super weapon because she had to. It's actually a good parallel, and Dany clearly cares. She constantly thinks of Hazzea.

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Danny doesnt know what honor is. She refuses to listen to Barrsitan when he tells her about Eddard Stark

She refuses to listen to something good about one of the men who took up arms against her father? Do you think Robb seems to want to hear Joffrey, Cersei etc. out? No, he wants to destroy the Lannisters for what they did to Eddard. Just as Dany has every right to be a bit cheesed off at Eddard.

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more importantly she sleeps with daario knowing its the wrong thing to do - Robb married jeyne because in his eyes "It was the only honorable thing to do"(this is robb's own words) - So in his eyes he thinks what he did was right.

So they both slept with someone other than their promised spouses? Yet Dany wasn't so much of an idiot to marry Daario, yet Robb did marry Jeyne. Robb broke his contract with the Freys. They both took another person to bed, yet Robb then broke a contract whereas Dany knew she had to marry Hizdahr for the good of Meereen. Robb didn't recognise this and married his love rather than his obligations, Dany deserves great credit in this comparison.

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Robb inherited all lands and armies but he earned being king in the north after getting most of his bannermen to respect him - His deeds won him the respect of the Greatjon and others.

He earned it? By having Grey Wind bite off the Greatjon's fingers and defeating Jaime? How about sacking Astapor, defeating Yunkai and occupying Meereen. She earned her title as Queen of Meereen.

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Out of all who follow danny who follows out of respect of her actions?? Barristan follows her because he has no other choice and was kicked out of the kingsguard, Mormont follows her out of love, The unsullied follow her because she owns them, the freedmen follow her out of gratitude(and also they have nothing else to do) and the rest follow out of fear of dragons.
Robb is a mirror image of his father - Yes he is a fool, they both were, but they were honorable and therefore likable.

Barristan could have followed Stannis, or Renly (who would have gladly taken him) or taken the offer of the Lannisters. He did not have to go to Dany, he also left the door open for him to leave if she wasn't worthwhile with the whole Arstan disguise. Mormont follows out of love, but many of Robb's bannermen follow out of duty and contracts, not really more devout. The Unsullied follow because she won them and then freed them, as do her freedmen. You seriously don't consider her freed slaves as valid followers? If someone freed me from slavery I'd probably be grateful.

Robb is worse than Eddard in terms of folly, Eddard didn't marry Ashara Dayne after all, he married Catelyn as was his obligation.

[ManyFacedOne]

Corm, on 11 April 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

When the Lamb People agreed to come over, there was no longer a problem apparently. As Tyrion said, people choose to be slaves, unfortunately the other choice is death. I don't think that it's better for people to have to make that decision. Some having good lives doesn't make up for those who were killed.

And she found one, the Lamb People

I don't remember the lamb people solving anything. It was a start but they're too small to help sustain so large a city.

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The idea was to kill the Grand Masters, there weren't so many of them, so she could have been completely thorough. All she had to do was kill one member of every family, horrible I know, but it probably would have worked.

Doubtful. It would only serve to enrage the remaining family members, driving their plots further underground.

[PatrickStormborn]

Corm, on 11 April 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

I didn't say I can't, I said it's more difficult, which I thought would have been true for almost everyone of the opposite gender to any character. I don't see how my being able to identify with someone or not can be argued. You seem to be insinuating I'm some sort of sexist, that is not the case, I just find it difficult to like characters that I can in no way relate to. I would have thought that I would be free to say so.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I can easily identify with both male and female characters.

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and @Morte

I'm not an idiot, I know the fucking difference in definition between usurping and conquering, what I'm saying is that you'd have to be blind not to see that it is the exact same thing in context. For Christ's sake, do you really think that when the Aegon came over the Seven Kingdoms just handed over their power because they too believed that he was entitled to it? Are you trying to say that Aegon's was more justified or something? There is no "rightful" ruler of the Seven Kingdoms or anywhere in any fantasy or real universe. It all stems from a belief that just because you were born a certain way means you deserve certain things. If anything I think that Robert's rebellion was more justified, not because I love him/the Starks/Stannis/Renly etc, not because I hate the Lannisters/Dany/the Targaryens or any other thing that would affect my judgement but because he was avenging good men,  removing a horrible King and he thought he was saving Lyanna. What Aegon did was simply use power to take something that wasn't his. But back to what I was actually arguing, Dany has no entitlement, if we just keep going back then we say there should be no united Seven Kingdoms and go back to all of them separately, or we could go back and say that the Children of the Forest should be the ones who control the Seven Kingdoms cos they ruled it first. My argument lies in the fact that I hate this sense of entitlement that monarchies produce and I don't believe that simply because Aegon united the Seven Kingdoms means that he is vastly different to Robert.

1. As you know the difference, you'll realise that Dany has every right to see Robert as a usurper -- because he is.

2. Robert ... saving Lyanna? So THAT'S why he was out whoring during the war. THAT'S why he went looking for her as soon as he took his throne. Oh, wait...

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Again, I understand that it was a political marriage, call me crazy but I just don't think it's nice to fuck other people in the lead up to your wedding, that's why it's disrespectful, Hiz is guilty of the same thing. There are a million and one ways they could find out which I believe you can figure out for yourself. I'm not saying that it would make them hate her more but that they, or Hiz, might not want to continue with the marriage and peace if they thought she was going to just do this in front of everyone. Dany did this without the knowledge that Hiz was sleeping with other women, or that he would be fine with it. In the end he was fine, I just think it stupid to do anything that has even a tiny chance of upsetting the very edgy peace. I never said that there was any affection between D+H, I just think that it would show more courtesy if she didn't fuck Daario.

Daenerys is the Queen of Meereen. All of Hizdahr's power derives from her. She does not need to show him any courtesy.

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Right, well you just completely misunderstood my question. What I meant to say is that she acts just like someone who has been told she is entitled all her life, that this is her birthright, and that she is above the rest of the people. Please don't return with an argument against why she is like that if you don't read what I have written in a previous post first. You could have put any number of words in there and it would have had the same meaning: King, lord, Prince, Princess, Lady, Knight, Count, Duke etc. Don't try and lay the sexist card on me just because I don't like a female character.

If that's a reason to dislike Dany, you surely dislike every POV character in the series (apart from Davos)? If you read AGOT you'll see that Dany's sense of entitlement comes from the fact that she, you know, actually earns her titles.

[Silverin]

Do really that many people want her to die though? (I am replying to the OP, not getting into the recent discussion.)
I mean not wanting her to be the Queen in Westeros is not the same as wanting her death. I know many people don'T want her to be Queen of Westeros but that is not the same as wanting her character to die.

I for example don't want to see her as the Queen at the end.
Firstly because reading the first five books so far, I think (and that is my opinion, we can debate I done it a couple of times, won't start again) she is bad at ruling. She does not think things throughly, she is too impulsive and not coherent.

Second, because I actually think she does not want to be Queen. I think she was brainwashed by Vis that whathever happenes the Targs have to get back their power, I think she feels bad that she just stood there watching him die. At least this is the explanation I come up, why is it that it seems like she gives more credit to Vis now and it seems like she more likely believs what he said compard to at the beginning when she more clearly saw how disillusioned Vis is. I think she does it for him and her family, rather than for herself, I think it is a burden to her, after all what she trully wants is to left alone at the house with red door. And I actually feel sad when I think about it, I just don't see her succeeding, or at least not on a long run, all I see is tragic. For me in Meereen when she was ruling, she seemed like someone who is suffocating. And whathever happens after all, in every country there will be fractions that will want you to fail, intrics etc etc will be in any kind of court, Westeros, Essos she can't escape from that.
And that is why I think, that contrary to many people here, she will be happy when she hears that she has a remaining family member (Aegon), since that means for her, that this burden can  be shared and she does not need to carry it alone.
Anyway, What I want to see for her is calming down and search for that house with red door.

[unRobert]

PatrickStormborn, on 11 April 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

If that's a reason to dislike Dany, you surely dislike every POV character in the series (apart from Davos)? If you read AGOT you'll see that Dany's sense of entitlement comes from the fact that she, you know, actually earns her titles.

True, silly to call Dany entitled when every other POV is a noble... derived from family inheritance... entitled to lands, etc. (Although she has not earned all those strings of Queen of the Andals and Rhoynar and First Men).

Anyway, I'm not a Dany fan. But I'm not sure if it hasn't been GRRM's biggest flaw in the series. Is she supposed to be liked? Or was he going for this kind of controversy about her character? The freeing of the slaves scene in SOS was one of the coolest parts of the book, and her arc in GOT is great, but Dance...

So it comes to me that the biggest reason I don't like Dany is that, although she has not been involved in all the epic conflicts of Westeros so far, she still seems poised for a great victory. I fear this, and as a result I am annoyed every time she voices or thinks an opinion on something about Westeros. I don't want her and her dragons to come in and snatch victory. It'll be lame (I actually don't believe she will win the Iron Throne, but the prospect is frightening).

The Daario thing... meh, I guess I hate it when you see the great looking girl with the d-bag thing.

Silverin, on 11 April 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

Do really that many people want her to die though?

Yeah. She gave the world dragons, and dies in some tragic, epic way. That'd be sweet.

[Noimporta]

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As you know the difference, you'll realise that Dany has every right to see Robert as a usurper -- because he is.

Let's not get silly. Of course usurping is usurping, the point they are making is that there's really no meaningful moral difference with conquering.

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Yeah. She gave the world dragons, and dies in some tragic, epic way. That'd be sweet.

I'm of the opposite opinion. Dany can do whatever she wants (except taking the iron throne, because I have my own pet candidate) but the dragons gotta go.