239 replies to this topic

[Apple Martini]

Noimporta, on 11 April 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

Let's not get silly. Of course usurping is usurping, the point they are making is that there's really no meaningful moral difference with conquering.

I agree with this. While there may be a technical difference between conquering and usurpation, I think the Targ apologists' mental gymnastics to paint one as morally superior to the other is pretty ridiculous. Aegon was a warlord with dragons who took what didn't belong to him and set his family up to exploit and subjugate a bunch of previously independent regions. 300 years later, his family eventually reaped what it sowed and paid for its abuses of power. Call a spade a spade.

[Ghost714]

I actually like the Dragons. If the ruler has Dragons, it's keeps everybody in line. Most of the rebellions during the Targaryen rule, happened after the Dragons died. So if somebody is going to be King/Queen, I don't mind if they have dragons, as long as they are not a horrible ruler, and I do not believe Dany is, and she will be even better in Westeros, because she got to have a trial run in Meereen. Dany has learned everything not to do as Queen, so the Westerosi won't have to suffer for the mistakes of a beginner.

What other candidate can offer that?

And after Dany secures her Throne, there will be long lasting peace.

Before someone says that more war is the last thing Westeros needs, I do not agree with that. Westeros is already at war, what better time for Dany to come? Do people profer that she wait until peace time, only to start another war? Because that makes no sense. Might as well get it all over with at once, so Westeros can start to heal, for good.

[Apple Martini]

Ghost714, on 11 April 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

I actually like the Dragons. If the ruler has Dragons, it's keeps everybody in line. Most of the rebellions during the Targaryen rule, happened after the Dragons died. So if somebody is going to be King/Queen, I don't mind if they have dragons, as long as they are not a horrible ruler, and I do not believe Dany is, and she will be even better in Westeros, because she got to have a trial run in Meereen. Dany has learned everything not to do as Queen, so the Westerosi won't have to suffer for the mistakes of a beginner.

That's not what I'd call a ringing endorsement for the Targs. It just demonstrates that their "skill" and "authority" came almost entirely from the dragons. Once people smelled blood in the water, it was probably only a matter of time before the Targs were knocked off. If it wasn't Robert's coalition it would've been someone else. Having dragons doesn't make you a good ruler and it doesn't make your government just. It just means that you have dragons and the other guy doesn't so based on that, you get to be king. I don't see why it's a problem to call something what it is. The Targs as a whole didn't stand for higher ideals or good governing or benevolence. They empowered their family when they could and lost power when someone else of superior power came along. And 50/50 is a dangerously high batshit crazy ratio for monarchs with near-absolute power.

And yes I think Dany would be a pretty lousy queen in Westeros. Thinking she'd bring peace is pretty naive — when has she ever brought it elsewhere? Every place she's been has been left worse off than when she found it.

Edited by Apple Martini, 11 April 2012 - 08:26 PM.

[Dr. Pepper]

Ghost714, on 11 April 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

... and she will be even better in Westeros, because she got to have a trial run in Meereen. Dany has learned everything not to do as Queen, so the Westerosi won't have to suffer for the mistakes of a beginner....

This is exactly why I do not think Dany would ever make a good queen and why I don't root for her.  She thinks using the people of Meereen as a 'trial run' to be perfectly ok.  It's not.  She completely disrupted three cities and a huge economic ring that she didn't know much about and didn't really understand.  She had no formal plan in place and she hasn't sat down to make a plan.  She is an impulsive and emotional ruler, and feels she's entitled to rule because her family called themselves royals.  She refuses to learn about the actual history of Robert's Rebellion from two men who were there despite her realizes that most of what Viserys taught her was rubbish.  Thus far, she hasn't learned from her mistakes.  She 'freed' the people of Slaver's Bay only to use them so she could practice.  Not someone you'd want in a position of power, especially if they come with three massive WMD's.

[Barty]

PatrickStormborn, on 11 April 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

Robb was, in general, an absolute idiot. Daenerys has shown much more political astuteness than he ever did.



JFC. Dorne is one of the weakest of the Great Houses. They had nothing to offer her in Meereen.

THERE IS. NO. MARRIAGE. CONTRACT. It was between Viserys and Arianne -- but it was never even made known to him. Dany rejected the marriage contract. Robb had accepted the marriage contract and then chose to break it. That is not the same, and it's certainly not honourable of Robb. Dany abandoning Meereen and marrying Quentyn would have been dishonourable.




Oh dear. If she wasn't one of the most important characters in the series she would have died a dozen deaths by now.

1. Dany did not sleep around. She enjoyed a consensual relationship as she was single. She stopped sleeping with him once she was married.

2. They did not break out -- they were released by Quentyn.

3. Dany was going to pardon Jorah, as I'm sure you're well aware. He brought his exile on himself.




1. She did not grant the titles to herself. Her khalasar called her the Unburnt and the mother of dragons, and her freedmen call her the breaker of shackles. I'm pretty sure the only one she granted to herself was khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea.

2. Has she ever said she thinks the titles give her a right to Westeros? No. She thinks she has a right to Westeros because her family ruled there for 280 years.



1. So I'm assuming you hate every POV character who doesn't fit your own identity?

6. Robert's rebellion is different to Aegon's landing. Robert usurped the throne from the reigning Royal Family; Aegon was an outsider who CONQUERED six of the seven kingdoms.

9. It did not put her marriage in jeopardy. She put Daario aside as soon as she was married.

12. Wrong. She dismissed Quentyn as a suitor because he had no way of getting her out of her situation. Moreover she was already being married off to Hizdahr.

13. Dracarys. The dragon riding. The funeral pyre. The Undying. I'd also argue that her character arc in AGOT is one of the strongest in the series.

14. I disagree. Barristan, Jorah, Missandei, the Green Grace, the Shavepate and even Daario are all at least somewhat interesting. I think part of the problem is that they're only seen through her POV.

16. And therein lies your whole problem.

Actually Dorne is one of the strongest houses - just look at how many men they command - Tyrion himself puts the number at 50,000 and the targs never could fully capture and control dorne even when they had dragons and had to eventually use marriage to get it into the 7 kingdoms.
Of course there is a marriage contract - just like when brandon stark died and ned married catelyn in his place dany should have fulfilled the contract of her brother.( or atleast thats how it goes in westeros - going by the one example we have)
And its because she hasnt died she's one of the major characters not the other way round.

[Barty]

Awesome Oberyn Martell, on 11 April 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

She got three dragon eggs from Illyrio. If he knew how to hatch them you can bet they'd have gone to Aegon. She becomes Khaleesi by being pretty, true but that just made her Drogos wife. She didn't get her followers from being pretty, she got them from hatching dragons. Otherwise she'd be at Vaes Dothrak as the prettiest former Khaleesi. The Unsullied came from her fooling the slavers. Some say it was too easy, it's called being clever. She knew they were lusting for a dragon and she used deceit to hide that she knew High Valyrian and her identity to lull them into a false sense of security, you call it cheating but it's clearly not been given to her.

Yes she got dragon eggs which later hatched into dragons - but what exactly was danny's role in this?? what did she have to do to get the dragons to hatch - nothing , she just placed them on her dead husbands body as a parting gift before burning him and next thing we know - dragons are back.
Fooling the slavers? That was backstabbing - not unlike what the frey's did to robb. The slavers did business with her in good faith and she killed them. She apparently hates slavery but was willing to buy the unsullied - a bit hypocritical if you ask me.

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And Robb gets two of the seven Kingdoms by just being who he is. Not even comparable.

robb gets one kingdom - the other he saves from the lannisters.

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She sacks Astapor and takes Meereen. Then tries to avoid all out war, usually regarded as a good thing to do. She lets her dragons grow and hunt (while paying the farmers for any sheep eaten), as you know they're her main weapon and need to grow. When they kill one child she chains Rhaegal and Viserion up and would have chained Drogon if he hadn't gone away. Robb beheaded Karstark because he had to, just as Dany chained up her dragons and lost her super weapon because she had to. It's actually a good parallel, and Dany clearly cares. She constantly thinks of Hazzea.

Taking Astapor by backstabbing the slavers - that was hardly anything which would make people respect her - Again she sacks two cities , destroys the entire culture and governments of that region and then tries to avoid all out war as soon as the possibility of her loosing comes up. Thats like saying I will kick the beehive but then try to avoid getting bitten.

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She refuses to listen to something good about one of the men who took up arms against her father? Do you think Robb seems to want to hear Joffrey, Cersei etc. out? No, he wants to destroy the Lannisters for what they did to Eddard. Just as Dany has every right to be a bit cheesed off at Eddard.

Not the same situation - She is apparently fine with drogo killing her brother - the one who actually grew up with her but she hates Eddard stark with a vengeance for killing a man she never even knew - the one who barristan and half the world called the  mad king.

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So they both slept with someone other than their promised spouses? Yet Dany wasn't so much of an idiot to marry Daario, yet Robb did marry Jeyne. Robb broke his contract with the Freys. They both took another person to bed, yet Robb then broke a contract whereas Dany knew she had to marry Hizdahr for the good of Meereen. Robb didn't recognise this and married his love rather than his obligations, Dany deserves great credit in this comparison.

I never said Robb was not an idiot for marrying jeyne- all I am saying is that in his eyes it was the only honorable course left after he had slept with her.
Honorable and dutiful are two very different things.
Danny does her duty but she is not honorable while Robb is honorable but does not do his duty.

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He earned it? By having Grey Wind bite off the Greatjon's fingers and defeating Jaime? How about sacking Astapor, defeating Yunkai and occupying Meereen. She earned her title as Queen of Meereen.

Robb defeats jaime lannister - The man who had just sliced through the tully armies like a knofe through butter. Robb was outnumbered 3:1 - this is what won the respect of his bannermen - though grey wind helped as well.
Sack of Astapor - Astapor was a ruin and all of its armies were under her control - hardly a battle.
Yunkish army was made of bed slaves and these too were outnumbered 2:1 by the unsullied alone - I could give 4 yr old Rickon command of this battle and he would have won it.

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Barristan could have followed Stannis, or Renly (who would have gladly taken him) or taken the offer of the Lannisters. He did not have to go to Dany, he also left the door open for him to leave if she wasn't worthwhile with the whole Arstan disguise. Mormont follows out of love, but many of Robb's bannermen follow out of duty and contracts, not really more devout. The Unsullied follow because she won them and then freed them, as do her freedmen. You seriously don't consider her freed slaves as valid followers? If someone freed me from slavery I'd probably be grateful.

Robb is worse than Eddard in terms of folly, Eddard didn't marry Ashara Dayne after all, he married Catelyn as was his obligation.

Barristan had been kicked out and disgraced by a baratheon( or so he thought) there wasnt much chance of him joining them now was there.... He admits that in the arstan disguise he is figuring out whether she is mad or not - not whether she is a great queen or not.
Robbs bannermen all respect him a whole lot - If it was just duty and contracts you wouldnt see letters like those which lyanna mormont sent or you wouldnt see men like wyman manderly doing their darndest to get Rickon back.

[Castel]

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Honorable and dutiful are two very different things.

Danny does her duty but she is not honorable while Robb is honorable but does not do his duty.

Where was the honor in breaking his sworn word to men who had fought and died for him? where was the honor in risking his allies for one girl? Robb married her because he wanted to, not for honor. How Jeyne Westerling's honor comes before his and that of the Freys and the safety of the kingdom is beyond me.

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This is exactly why I do not think Dany would ever make a good queen and why I don't root for her. She thinks using the people of Meereen as a 'trial run' to be perfectly ok. It's not. She completely disrupted three cities and a huge economic ring that she didn't know much about and didn't really understand. She had no formal plan in place and she hasn't sat down to make a plan. She is an impulsive and emotional ruler, and feels she's entitled to rule because her family called themselves royals. She refuses to learn about the actual history of Robert's Rebellion from two men who were there despite her realizes that most of what Viserys taught her was rubbish. Thus far, she hasn't learned from her mistakes. She 'freed' the people of Slaver's Bay only to use them so she could practice. Not someone you'd want in a position of power, especially if they come with three massive WMD's.

And that's what truly annoys me, that the lives of the people of Slavers Bay were spent so that Daenarys Targaryen could learn how to rule. That we should handwave away all those deaths because Dany is the hero and she'll surely get better by fiat and so this was just a speed bump. She fucked up because she doesn't listen and rushes into things. People died, I can't get behind a person like that.

[Apple Martini]

Castel, on 12 April 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

And that's what truly annoys me, that the lives of the people of Slavers Bay were spent so that Daenarys Targaryen could learn how to rule. That we should handwave away all those deaths because Dany is the hero and she'll surely get better by fiat and so this was just a speed bump. She fucked up because she doesn't listen and rushes into things. People died, I can't get behind a person like that.

Yep, this annoys me too. That Meereen is a "starter" kingdom that she fucks up beyond recognition and that's OK because it doesn't really count and Uncle Barristan is there to clean up the mess. Gag me with a spoon.

[Ghost714]

Barty, on 11 April 2012 - 11:54 PM, said:

Yes she got dragon eggs which later hatched into dragons - but what exactly was danny's role in this?? what did she have to do to get the dragons to hatch - nothing , she just placed them on her dead husbands body as a parting gift before burning him and next thing we know - dragons are back.
Fooling the slavers? That was backstabbing - not unlike what the frey's did to robb. The slavers did business with her in good faith and she killed them. She apparently hates slavery but was willing to buy the unsullied - a bit hypocritical if you ask me.





robb gets one kingdom - the other he saves from the lannisters.



Taking Astapor by backstabbing the slavers - that was hardly anything which would make people respect her - Again she sacks two cities , destroys the entire culture and governments of that region and then tries to avoid all out war as soon as the possibility of her loosing comes up. Thats like saying I will kick the beehive but then try to avoid getting bitten.



Not the same situation - She is apparently fine with drogo killing her brother - the one who actually grew up with her but she hates Eddard stark with a vengeance for killing a man she never even knew - the one who barristan and half the world called the  mad king.



I never said Robb was not an idiot for marrying jeyne- all I am saying is that in his eyes it was the only honorable course left after he had slept with her.
Honorable and dutiful are two very different things.
Danny does her duty but she is not honorable while Robb is honorable but does not do his duty.


Robb defeats jaime lannister - The man who had just sliced through the tully armies like a knofe through butter. Robb was outnumbered 3:1 - this is what won the respect of his bannermen - though grey wind helped as well.
Sack of Astapor - Astapor was a ruin and all of its armies were under her control - hardly a battle.
Yunkish army was made of bed slaves and these too were outnumbered 2:1 by the unsullied alone - I could give 4 yr old Rickon command of this battle and he would have won it.


Barristan had been kicked out and disgraced by a baratheon( or so he thought) there wasnt much chance of him joining them now was there.... He admits that in the arstan disguise he is figuring out whether she is mad or not - not whether she is a great queen or not.
Robbs bannermen all respect him a whole lot - If it was just duty and contracts you wouldnt see letters like those which lyanna mormont sent or you wouldnt see men like wyman manderly doing their darndest to get Rickon back.

Ok Dany did not just place eggs in a fire, and "poof out comes dragons". Dany was smart enough to take advantage of the Blood Magic done by Mirri Mazz Durr. Dany also walked into that pyre on the faith of what she was doing would work. It is so far beyond me, how people think Dany didn't do anything to get her dragons. 

And yes Dany cheated the Slave Masters of Astapor, so? She still didn't get the Unsullied handed to her. Dany was smart enough to use the Slave Masters greed against them. Dany made them an offer they couldn't refuse, and she lulled them into a false since of security, by pretending she could not speak High Valyrian. Dany also risked her life, getting the Unsullied, there was no certainty that her plan would work, but she took a big risk, and got a great reward. 
I also think its very funny that you say it's hypocritical for Dany to buy the Unsullied, when she hated slavery so much. Ask yourself this, did she buy the Unsullied? No. 
And how is it hypocritical for someone that hates slavery, to buy a slave, or to steal a slave, if they plan on giving freedom to that slave? Which is what Dany did, no matter how she got the Unsullied, she always planned to free them.


And the reason why Dany was fine with Drogo killing Viserys, and not fine with Aerys getting killed, is because she knew Viserys, she didn't know Aerys. Dany was able to witness Viserys and how crazy he was, Viserys also said he would cut Dany's baby out of her and take her from Drogo, so who knows... Maybe that had something to do with it. 
Dany never saw Aerys being cruel or crazy, and up until recently, she had no idea that was the case with Aerys.


When it comes to Yunkai, Dany army was partly so successful during that battle, because of her own initiative. So Dany's army out numbered the army of Yunkai, how is that a nock against her? She is obviously smart enough to pick a city that is beatable. I call that smart, what do you call it? However it was mainly because of Dany, that her army only lost a handful of men.  It was Dany's idea to have a meeting with all the Captains of Yunkai, including the Captains of the Stormcrows and Second Sons. Then something Dany said, or did, inspired Daario to kill his other two fellow Capatains, and bring the Stormcrows over to Dany. Yet again, it was all Dany's idea to offer the Second Sons enough wine to get them piss poor drunk, so they were about as useless as nipples on a breastplate, during the Battle. Last but not least, it was Dany's idea to say that she would attack in three days, giving Yunkai a false since of security, and then attacking that night. 
So I really fail to see how Dany had no part in the victory against the Yunkai, and I would like to know what book your reading.

I just think its so funny when people say that Dany did nothing to get the Dragons, or the Unsullied. Same with beating Yunkai, and taking Meereen. Dany had smart plans involved in all of them, and they all worked. Even Ser Jorah and Ser Barristan say that Dany is her brother Rhaegar's sister, because of how good her plans were. Especially for being a young girl, and knowing little of the ways of war....(I could not help myself, so many people get a stick up their ass about Dany saying that... I love it every time she says it)

When it comes to Ser Barristan Selmy, yes he was fired by a "Baratheon", but there were two other Baratheon's fighting against that Baratheon. So Ser Barristan would not think that he couldn't join Renly or Stannis, just because they were also Baratheon's. Again these Baratheon's were on separate sides, and both Stannis and Renly would have taken Ser Barristan. He could have also decided to join Robb, who would also like to have him. So it's not like Selmy had no choice but to go to Dany, he had a choice. He also gave him self an out, in the situation that Dany had the "taint" in her. Yet Barristan claims that there was no taint in Dany, after saying there was in her brother and her father. 


And yes the Stark Bannerman do love the Starks, you gave a perfect example, with Lyanna Mormont's response to Stannis etc.
But Dany's freedmen and woman also love her a lot to, and they are very loyal to her. I mean, they love her so much, that they call her "Mother".

Edited by Ghost714, 12 April 2012 - 01:07 AM.

[Rhaegar The Rocker]

I don't hate Dany but the first 3/4 of her chapters in ADWD were mildly disappointing. And while I agree with the "starter kingdom" sentiment, part of me thinks a lot of the Meereen stuff was just a way to finally get Dany on the back of that damn dragon.

It will be interesting to see what kind of condition she leaves Meereen in once she decides to return to Westeros (if she does at all).  With the sellswords at her door and Victarion around the corner, I imagine an epic battle coming.  I did read TWOW is supposed to open with two big battles...

[Lord Ben]

I don't hate her but it's sort of meh.   There is the Other on one side of the Kingdom and Dany and her dragons coming from the other side of the Kingdom.  Fire and Ice.   Her story is clearly half-done though, and the small plots aren't nearly as interesting as, for instance, Jon's.    His arc is a bit more enjoyable to me.    You can see the stages of development and joining the Knight's Watch, adventuring beyond the wall, Commander, Wildling Invasion, etc are just more engaging to me than "trial kingdom".   I want to find out what happens to the Seven Kingdoms, I don't give a crap what happens to Meereen.

[Dr. Pepper]

Ghost714, on 12 April 2012 - 01:02 AM, said:

<snip>

I don't think anyone denies that Dany had some pretty clever ideas when it came to waging war on the cities of Slaver's Bay.  But conquering cities with clever and shady methods still does not make a good ruler.  It was a noble idea to free the slaves, but she did it all without a plan.  She has no idea how very ingrained slavery is in these cities and she doesn't understand that simply freeing the slaves will make everything all honky dory.  I would have had a lot more respect for her plan to practice ruling people (even though I think the idea of practicing on people's lives to be despicable) if she had stayed in Astapor.  I might have forgiven her after she moved onto Yunkai because she thought she had left Astapor better but she learns that what she left isn't working and she doesn't do anything to change her style of rule in Yunkai.  Instead, she moves on to Meereen.  The only thing she has is a knack for conquering and pillaging cities.  Even then, she is really only able to start off her conquering because she possesses dragons.

Again, being clever at war tactics does not make one a clever ruler.  As a ruler, Dany completely fails.  I don't root for her because of this and I don't have any desire to see her try to conquer Westeros.  I liked Dany at the beginning of the series because she showed a lot of promise.  She was a slave to Viserys whims until she married Khal Drogo and she started to really become her own person and really started to think about more than what Viserys told her.  I was so Dany fangirl and it was really difficult when I finally had to see Dany for what she was -a terrible ruler - and give up my dany fangirl status.

[brashcandy]

Apple Martini, on 11 April 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

I agree with this. While there may be a technical difference between conquering and usurpation, I think the Targ apologists' mental gymnastics to paint one as morally superior to the other is pretty ridiculous. Aegon was a warlord with dragons who took what didn't belong to him and set his family up to exploit and subjugate a bunch of previously independent regions. 300 years later, his family eventually reaped what it sowed and paid for its abuses of power. Call a spade a spade.

This is a pretty romantic view of Westerosi history. Ultimately there were good Targs and bad Targs, with Aerys being one of the crazier batshit rulers. 300 yrs later a totally inept drunkard and womanizer sat on the throne, and a fragile peace barely lasted for 15 yrs. Now Westeros is down the shit toilet again, with every other boy king and fanatic vying for a piece. Are the Baratheons, Lannisters, Starks et al, reaping what they sowed as well? And no one is trying to assert that Aegon was morally superior to Robert (who had good cause to rebel), but it's still a fact that he's a usurper to the throne and Dany has all right to consider him as such, and herself as a legitimate contender.

Apple Martini, on 11 April 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

And yes I think Dany would be a pretty lousy queen in Westeros. Thinking she'd bring peace is pretty naive — when has she ever brought it elsewhere? Every place she's been has been left worse off than when she found it.

This is ridiculous. Dany was trying throughout her rule in Meereen to fix the problems of the city, listen to grievances and institute policies for progress. At every turn her efforts were met with violence and opposition by the Sons of the Harpies. She put her own happiness aside to marry Hizdahr to help deal with this problem, and refused to desert Meereen in place of Westeros. Do you imagine that after conquering a city things just return to peace and prosperity overnight, especially when one is abolishing a terrible system like slavery? Look at the Lannisters in KL, with the whole city destitute and starving, or the awful conditions in the North. Wars come at a cost, but at least Dany is fighting for a nobler purpose other than simply sitting her ass on a chair. Everyone talks about how she doesn't want to listen to the stories of Robert's Rebellion, but let's look at what she's actually doing - remaining in Meereen and trying to come up with solutions, not running back to Westeros for vengeance. She may have made an error in Astaphor with the council, but her decision to remain in Meereen was a direct result of her failures there, and not wanting Meereen to go the same way. She's not perfect or infallible, but she's at least trying, and she doesn't have the magic wand that you seem to want her to have to magically wave problems away. The very nature of her conquest meant that formulating plans for governance had to come afterwards, so claiming that she was somehow content to wing it is being patently dishonest.

Apple Martini, on 12 April 2012 - 12:13 AM, said:

Yep, this annoys me too. That Meereen is a "starter" kingdom that she fucks up beyond recognition and that's OK because it doesn't really count and Uncle Barristan is there to clean up the mess. Gag me with a spoon.

If she was simply using Meereen as a starter kingdom then she would have hightailed it out of there as soon as the going got rough. After all, her real goal is supposedly Westeros is it not? Just because Dany was the one to vocalise the need to learn how be a queen and rule doesn't mean that she didn't give Meereen 100 percent and that she was somehow content to blunder her way through queenship and sacrifice the lives of her people in some childish trial and error project. Every single person that imagines themselves as a ruler, or sits on a throne is learning on the job. Sure, some might be more naturally skilled than others, such as Renly having more people skills than Stannis, but until you're actually on the job you have no idea about the kinds of challenges you will face, or what your responses will sometimes have to be. This is what Robert learnt to his demise, along with Ned, Cersei, Robb etc. Others avoid the responsibility all together.  This idea that Dany is using Meereen in some haphazard fashion is utter nonsense. She was determined to make that city work and become prosperous again. I'm much prouder of someone who says, look, I messed up, I'm going to take my time, buckle down and commit to learning the ropes of ruling and try to do the best for my people, than someone who takes it for granted what is best or someone who looks for the easy way out when things turn south.

[Towel]

My local dive bar is called The Funky Monkey.

And i heart Dany.


TEAM DANY SINCE '99

[Ghost714]

brashcandy, on 12 April 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:

This is a pretty romantic view of Westerosi history. Ultimately there were good Targs and bad Targs, with Aerys being one of the crazier batshit rulers. 300 yrs later a totally inept drunkard and womanizer sat on the throne, and a fragile peace barely lasted for 15 yrs. Now Westeros is down the shit toilet again, with every other boy king and fanatic vying for a piece. Are the Baratheons, Lannisters, Starks et al, reaping what they sowed as well? And no one is trying to assert that Aegon was morally superior to Robert (who had good cause to rebel), but it's still a fact that he's a usurper to the throne and Dany has all right to consider him as such, and herself as a legitimate contender.




This is ridiculous. Dany was trying throughout her rule in Meereen to fix the problems of the city, listen to grievances and institute policies for progress. At every turn her efforts were met with violence and opposition by the Sons of the Harpies. She put her own happiness aside to marry Hizdahr to help deal with this problem, and refused to desert Meereen in place of Westeros. Do you imagine that after conquering a city things just return to peace and prosperity overnight, especially when one is abolishing a terrible system like slavery? Look at the Lannisters in KL, with the whole city destitute and starving, or the awful conditions in the North. Wars come at a cost, but at least Dany is fighting for a nobler purpose other than simply sitting her ass on a chair. Everyone talks about how she doesn't want to listen to the stories of Robert's Rebellion, but let's look at what she's actually doing - remaining in Meereen and trying to come up with solutions, not running back to Westeros for vengeance. She may have made an error in Astaphor with the council, but her decision to remain in Meereen was a direct result of her failures there, and not wanting Meereen to go the same way. She's not perfect or infallible, but she's at least trying, and she doesn't have the magic wand that you seem to want her to have to magically wave problems away. The very nature of her conquest meant that formulating plans for governance had to come afterwards, so claiming that she was somehow content to wing it is being patently dishonest.




If she was simply using Meereen as a starter kingdom then she would have hightailed it out of there as soon as the going got rough. After all, her real goal is supposedly Westeros is it not? Just because Dany was the one to vocalise the need to learn how be a queen and rule doesn't mean that she didn't give Meereen 100 percent and that she was somehow content to blunder her way through queenship and sacrifice the lives of her people in some childish trial and error project. Every single person that imagines themselves as a ruler, or sits on a throne is learning on the job. Sure, some might be more naturally skilled than others, such as Renly having more people skills than Stannis, but until you're actually on the job you have no idea about the kinds of challenges you will face, or what your responses will sometimes have to be. This is what Robert learnt to his demise, along with Ned, Cersei, Robb etc. Others avoid the responsibility all together.  This idea that Dany is using Meereen in some haphazard fashion is utter nonsense. She was determined to make that city work and become prosperous again. I'm much prouder of someone who says, look, I messed up, I'm going to take my time, buckle down and commit to learning the ropes of ruling and try to do the best for my people, than someone who takes it for granted what is best or someone who looks for the easy way out when things turn south.

I agree with this, great post.

In an earlier post of mine, I said Dany learned everything not to do as a Queen, with Meereen. That was my words, not Dany's. Dany never once said that Meereen was just a practice round for being Queen of Westeros, so people should get that out of their heads, that wasn't how Dany saw it. I was simply making an observation, and the simple truth is, as bad as it sounds, Meereen was a trial for Dany, teaching her how to be a better Queen in Westeros. That was not Dany's intentions though, it just worked out that way. No other candidate for Westeros has had a chance to learn the hard way how to rule like Dany, not on the same scale as Dany anyway, in my book that gives Dany a leg up.
Again Dany never once thought of it that way though.

[Barty]

Ghost714, on 12 April 2012 - 01:02 AM, said:

Ok Dany did not just place eggs in a fire, and "poof out comes dragons". Dany was smart enough to take advantage of the Blood Magic done by Mirri Mazz Durr. Dany also walked into that pyre on the faith of what she was doing would work. It is so far beyond me, how people think Dany didn't do anything to get her dragons.

And yes Dany cheated the Slave Masters of Astapor, so? She still didn't get the Unsullied handed to her. Dany was smart enough to use the Slave Masters greed against them. Dany made them an offer they couldn't refuse, and she lulled them into a false since of security, by pretending she could not speak High Valyrian. Dany also risked her life, getting the Unsullied, there was no certainty that her plan would work, but she took a big risk, and got a great reward.
I also think its very funny that you say it's hypocritical for Dany to buy the Unsullied, when she hated slavery so much. Ask yourself this, did she buy the Unsullied? No.
And how is it hypocritical for someone that hates slavery, to buy a slave, or to steal a slave, if they plan on giving freedom to that slave? Which is what Dany did, no matter how she got the Unsullied, she always planned to free them.


And the reason why Dany was fine with Drogo killing Viserys, and not fine with Aerys getting killed, is because she knew Viserys, she didn't know Aerys. Dany was able to witness Viserys and how crazy he was, Viserys also said he would cut Dany's baby out of her and take her from Drogo, so who knows... Maybe that had something to do with it.
Dany never saw Aerys being cruel or crazy, and up until recently, she had no idea that was the case with Aerys.


When it comes to Yunkai, Dany army was partly so successful during that battle, because of her own initiative. So Dany's army out numbered the army of Yunkai, how is that a nock against her? She is obviously smart enough to pick a city that is beatable. I call that smart, what do you call it? However it was mainly because of Dany, that her army only lost a handful of men.  It was Dany's idea to have a meeting with all the Captains of Yunkai, including the Captains of the Stormcrows and Second Sons. Then something Dany said, or did, inspired Daario to kill his other two fellow Capatains, and bring the Stormcrows over to Dany. Yet again, it was all Dany's idea to offer the Second Sons enough wine to get them piss poor drunk, so they were about as useless as nipples on a breastplate, during the Battle. Last but not least, it was Dany's idea to say that she would attack in three days, giving Yunkai a false since of security, and then attacking that night.
So I really fail to see how Dany had no part in the victory against the Yunkai, and I would like to know what book your reading.

I just think its so funny when people say that Dany did nothing to get the Dragons, or the Unsullied. Same with beating Yunkai, and taking Meereen. Dany had smart plans involved in all of them, and they all worked. Even Ser Jorah and Ser Barristan say that Dany is her brother Rhaegar's sister, because of how good her plans were. Especially for being a young girl, and knowing little of the ways of war....(I could not help myself, so many people get a stick up their ass about Dany saying that... I love it every time she says it)

When it comes to Ser Barristan Selmy, yes he was fired by a "Baratheon", but there were two other Baratheon's fighting against that Baratheon. So Ser Barristan would not think that he couldn't join Renly or Stannis, just because they were also Baratheon's. Again these Baratheon's were on separate sides, and both Stannis and Renly would have taken Ser Barristan. He could have also decided to join Robb, who would also like to have him. So it's not like Selmy had no choice but to go to Dany, he had a choice. He also gave him self an out, in the situation that Dany had the "taint" in her. Yet Barristan claims that there was no taint in Dany, after saying there was in her brother and her father.


And yes the Stark Bannerman do love the Starks, you gave a perfect example, with Lyanna Mormont's response to Stannis etc.
But Dany's freedmen and woman also love her a lot to, and they are very loyal to her. I mean, they love her so much, that they call her "Mother".

the main point I was initially making was that Danny gets it all easy - first the dragons then the unsullied then the slaver cities (yes she did have some part in the battle which helped reduce her losses but even if she had just pointed at the yunkish and shouted charge it would have been an easy victory) - when her power is being really threatened for the first time at the end of ADwD she flies off right into a khalasar which will no doubt join her - coming back to meereen she will find the hard work already done by Selmy and the ironborn - all she did in meereen was manage to f*ck the city up and now she will leave them all - no doubt leaving all her freed slaves to become unfreed again.
And what she did to the slave masters wasnt smart - it was plain old backstabbing. Imagine walking into a gun shop, buying a gun,  shooting the shopkeeper, taking you're money back and say at the end of it all that you're against the open sale of guns which is why you killed the shop owner. - this is what danny did and everyone seems to praise this.

[PatrickStormborn]

There's a lot of hypocrisy here. One on hand posters are complaining that Dany is just using Meereen as a "trial" (false), and on they're complaining that she's not bothered about Westeros. Dany stayed in Meereen to fix the problems, but she still intended to return to Westeros eventually. That doesn't mean she was using Meereen as a trial.


I can't speak for other posters, of course, but I find Dany's story to be one of the most interesting in the series. Personally I'm not invested in the Night's Watch or the Iron Islands, both of which make the story drag for me. That doesn't mean I hate every character at the Night's Watch just because I don't enjoy the story; it just means I'm much more interested in the political story in Westeros, and Daenerys is part of that. Her adventures in Essos have completely altered the political structure of the continent, and this is beginning to affect the story in Westeros.

Apple Martini, on 11 April 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

I agree with this. While there may be a technical difference between conquering and usurpation, I think the Targ apologists' mental gymnastics to paint one as morally superior to the other is pretty ridiculous. Aegon was a warlord with dragons who took what didn't belong to him and set his family up to exploit and subjugate a bunch of previously independent regions. 300 years later, his family eventually reaped what it sowed and paid for its abuses of power. Call a spade a spade.

No. Robert had no justification to take the throne, and 14 years later he reaped what he sowed and was killed by his wife before the kingdoms spiralled into another civil war.

We don't know why Aegon conquered Westeros, although it is my belief that he thought he was the prince who was promised.

And why must you insist on calling me a "Targ apologist"? I'm not. I just hate Robert Baratheon, who usurped the throne because Rhaegar eloped with Lyanna.

Barty, on 11 April 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

Actually Dorne is one of the strongest houses - just look at how many men they command - Tyrion himself puts the number at 50,000 and the targs never could fully capture and control dorne even when they had dragons and had to eventually use marriage to get it into the 7 kingdoms.
Of course there is a marriage contract - just like when brandon stark died and ned married catelyn in his place dany should have fulfilled the contract of her brother.( or atleast thats how it goes in westeros - going by the one example we have)
And its because she hasnt died she's one of the major characters not the other way round.

No. Doran himself tells Arianne in AFFC that they are very weak. The Young Dragon lied about the strength of Dorne, and it worked to the advantage of the Dornish so they didn't deny it.

What the... Your last two points ... There was no marriage contract, because Daenerys never accepted it. Cat and Ned both knew about the marriage contract (as did their fathers), so it's really not comparable.  

Daenerys hasn't died because she's one of the major characters. Martin didn't get to ADWD and think "hmm, Dany isn't dead ... better make her one of my major characters!!"

Edited by PatrickStormborn, 12 April 2012 - 03:20 AM.

[PatrickStormborn]

Barty, on 12 April 2012 - 03:01 AM, said:

the main point I was initially making was that Danny gets it all easy - first the dragons then the unsullied then the slaver cities (yes she did have some part in the battle which helped reduce her losses but even if she had just pointed at the yunkish and shouted charge it would have been an easy victory) - when her power is being really threatened for the first time at the end of ADwD she flies off right into a khalasar which will no doubt join her - coming back to meereen she will find the hard work already done by Selmy and the ironborn - all she did in meereen was manage to f*ck the city up and now she will leave them all - no doubt leaving all her freed slaves to become unfreed again.
And what she did to the slave masters wasnt smart - it was plain old backstabbing. Imagine walking into a gun shop, buying a gun,  shooting the shopkeeper, taking you're money back and say at the end of it all that you're against the open sale of guns which is why you killed the shop owner. - this is what danny did and everyone seems to praise this.

1. The dragons did not come easy. No one else with dragon eggs could get them to hatch -- even Euron, with his warlocks. Dany is magical. Get over it.

2. The Unsullied did not come easy. There was a chance that Dany could lose Drogon. She took a risk and it paid off.

3. She would have easily won the battle with Yunkai, I agree. But her intervention ensured that barely any of her army was killed. She also earned the loyalty of Daario and the Stormcrows.

4. She didn't fly "off right into a khalasar". She saved Drogon and then encountered a khalasar who had been sent to kill her.

5. "Now she will leave them all"? Really? What makes you think that?

6. Not really. Dany paid the Great Masters, but they couldn't control Drogon. A dragon is no slave. After defeating the Great Masters, she freed the Unsullied. So it would be more like going into a gun shop, giving the owner the rarest gun in the world in return for every other gun, killing him or her with these guns, and then liberating them afterwards.

[Thunderfist]

PatrickStormborn, on 12 April 2012 - 03:12 AM, said:

There's a lot of hypocrisy here. One on hand posters are complaining that Dany is just using Meereen as a "trial" (false), and on they're complaining that she's not bothered about Westeros. Dany stayed in Meereen to fix the problems, but she still intended to return to Westeros eventually. That doesn't mean she was using Meereen as a trial.


I can't speak for other posters, of course, but I find Dany's story to be one of the most interesting in the series. Personally I'm not invested in the Night's Watch or the Iron Islands, both of which make the story drag for me. That doesn't mean I hate every character at the Night's Watch just because I don't enjoy the story; it just means I'm much more interested in the political story in Westeros, and Daenerys is part of that. Her adventures in Essos have completely altered the political structure of the continent, and this is beginning to affect the story in Westeros.



No. Robert had no justification to take the throne, and 14 years later he reaped what he sowed and was killed by his wife before the kingdoms spiralled into another civil war.

We don't know why Aegon conquered Westeros, although it is my belief that he thought he was the prince who was promised.

And why must you insist on calling me a "Targ apologist"? I'm not. I just hate Robert Baratheon, who usurped the throne because Rhaegar eloped with Lyanna.




No. Doran himself tells Arianne in AFFC that they are very weak. The Young Dragon lied about the strength of Dorne, and it worked to the advantage of the Dornish so they didn't deny it.

What the... Your last two points ... There was no marriage contract, because Daenerys never accepted it. Cat and Ned both knew about the marriage contract (as did their fathers), so it's really not comparable.  

Daenerys hasn't died because she's one of the major characters. Martin didn't get to ADWD and think "hmm, Dany isn't dead ... better make her one of my major characters!!"

Before the war, Dorne was probably one of the weakest kingdoms. But after a few years of war they are one of the two kingdoms who are untouched by the war so they should be considered a valuable ally. The North is broken, the Riverlands broken, the Westerlands is in bad shape, the Reach and the Iron Islands are busy fighting eachother. I also imagine that Dorne, given their geographical location, will suffer the least during the winter.

[Giovanna Neve]

Quote

1. The dragons did not come easy. No one else with dragon eggs could get them to hatch -- even Euron, with his warlocks. Dany is magical. Get over it.

Well, she may be magical (but I'm not sure about it, since the dragons born becausa she perfom the right ritual, she was lucky) but there are many characters more and more magical than her. As a targ she's not so pure and she admitted even a uber-pure targ like Aegon I didn't dare to ride his sisters dragons. And even an uber-pure targ needed spells to tame dragons. She can't even controll Drogon, who is still half a pup-dragon and think she's his mommy.
So, let's admint she can control Drogon 100%. What if another one (a warg for example, or even Euron) gains control  over one of the other dragons?

Also, let's admit targ blood=targ can control dragons (and they also need spells for it). No more dragons = useless power.
Bran, Melisandre, a FM, Varamyr... are far more magical than a targ. And most important, they understand and can control their power.